Muamba

[trophyshy 7073]

Thanks to the contributors to this thread, very interesting conversation.

 

Sloop your encyclopaedic knowledge of the protagonists in this journey is impressive (and slightly bewildering), that much has to be acknowledged.

 

Is this a personal interest or work/study related? Tell me to mind my own business if I'm twisting your free will.

 

Seemingly nowt wrong with Muamba after 78 minutes of being dead. That's as close to miraculous as it gets tbf.

 

Well I studied Eastern philosophy a bit in my MA so that got my interested, plus one of my best friends did a PhD in Ethics at Oxford and is a pretty strong Christian so he was always challenging me, particularly during my more nihilistic years

 

Which begs the question then, did this 'stuff' save you from yourself, you vile animal?

[Tom 14011]

Back to the main topic. This poses an interesting question to the current resuscitation guidelines. When I worked in A&E cardiac arrests usually got 20-30minutes CPR and 3 shocks before being called as a death, give or take.

 

Here we have a bloke whose heart has stopped for 78minutes and has been given 12 separate shocks and it looks like he is going to make a very good recovery with minimal to no brain damage

 

That's quite frightening!

 

The Doctor was saying there was still some ''electrical activity'' but no muscle movement if that counts for anything?

[toonotl 2961]

I agree with you there militant athesists really do get on my nerves, it seems like all they want is attention, and in a way have become a religon themselves massive hypocrites i have to say. I think people should stop critizing others religons and their belif in god. People need to look for reasons to LOVE not hate.

 

Atheism is a position. Here is the position of atheism. The evidence for the existence of a god is not sufficient. That's it. How is that hypocritical?

 

Why should people not criticise something they think is not the truth? That's how we as a societies have progressed throughout time. It doesn't happen by sitting around saying, 'Well that seems like bullshit but I better not look for a better explanation because if I show up Gary he'll think I'm a dick'.

 

You're being silly.

[toonarmy108 0]

I agree with you there militant athesists really do get on my nerves, it seems like all they want is attention, and in a way have become a religon themselves massive hypocrites i have to say. I think people should stop critizing others religons and their belif in god. People need to look for reasons to LOVE not hate.

 

Atheism is a position. Here is the position of atheism. The evidence for the existence of a god is not sufficient. That's it. How is that hypocritical?

 

Why should people not criticise something they think is not the truth? That's how we as a societies have progressed throughout time. It doesn't happen by sitting around saying, 'Well that seems like bullshit but I better not look for a better explanation because if I show up Gary he'll think I'm a dick'.

 

You're being silly.

I don't think you understand me here, i am not talking about normal atheists, i am talking about the ones who without understanding religion just say its bullshit, and try to force their views on people. Last i checked there isn't enough evidence to prove god doesn't exist either When these atheists group together they in a sense form a cult\ religion which is why i said they are hypocrites. So i wasn't being silly mate, its all about perception.

[trophyshy 7073]

I agree with you there militant athesists really do get on my nerves, it seems like all they want is attention, and in a way have become a religon themselves massive hypocrites i have to say. I think people should stop critizing others religons and their belif in god. People need to look for reasons to LOVE not hate.

 

Atheism is a position. Here is the position of atheism. The evidence for the existence of a god is not sufficient. That's it. How is that hypocritical?

 

Why should people not criticise something they think is not the truth? That's how we as a societies have progressed throughout time. It doesn't happen by sitting around saying, 'Well that seems like bullshit but I better not look for a better explanation because if I show up Gary he'll think I'm a dick'.

 

You're being silly.

I don't think you understand me here, i am not talking about normal atheists, i am talking about the ones who without understanding religion just say its bullshit, and try to force their views on people. Last i checked there isn't enough evidence to prove god doesn't exist either When these atheists group together they in a sense form a cult\ religion which is why i said they are hypocrites. So i wasn't being silly mate, its all about perception.

 

Only by truly understanding bullshit can you call it religion.

 

I can announce, fearlessly, that the existence of god or otherwise, will never be proven.

 

Fair play then, just go on your instincts.

[toonotl 2961]

..

 

So you seem to think that the truth is important?

 

So why defend the role that a lie has played in the history of humanity? It seems redundant. Like arguing about the validity of LotR fan fiction. I would suggest also that your position holds even less weight when considering that one side of the argument has a distinct motivation to distort the truth.

 

In this discussion you have the distinct advantage of having read more about the history of a lie written by the liars than any of us. Congrats, but in the course of history anything that christianity has ever achieved or set out to achieve is tarnished by their overt, and required overarching, motive to reinforce their beliefs. That renders anything they accomplish or claim to have accomplished questionable at best. I would argue that the progression of humanity has been achieved in spite of christianity rather than because of it. That can be seen as christianity slowly, but not holistically, lets go of segments of their rediculous dogma. Science leads the way and religion tags alone in the background saying, 'Yeah, yeah, that's what we say too'. If you think that deserves any credence then thats your prerogative.

 

All in all I'll say this. Religion is a lie. And at the end of day that's all that really matters. When you start with a lie that lie must be defended and the more invested you become in that lie the more aggressively you must defend it. I'll leave you to deduce where that leads in terms of the validity of your argument.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

People are entitled to send whatever well wishes they want be it prayer or simply keeping someone else in their thoughts.

 

Religion to me has always been something that should be personal rather than forced on atheism, the same is true of atheist wumming too which is becoming quite a popular past time nowadays.

I agree with you there militant athesists really do get on my nerves, it seems like all they want is attention, and in a way have become a religon themselves massive hypocrites i have to say. I think people should stop critizing others religons and their belif in god. People need to look for reasons to LOVE not hate.

 

Completely disagree and I think there is a great need at present to criticize and challenge various belief systems, there are people actively trying to radicalize people in order to get them to commit murder, we have seen an unfortunate example of a radicalized youth in France this past week. 'Atheists have become a religion themselves' is a tired cliche often peddled these days. The various debates over faith and religious matters have the potential to be very interesting and should be encouraged.

[toonotl 2961]

I don't think you understand me here, i am not talking about normal atheists, i am talking about the ones who without understanding religion just say its bullshit, and try to force their views on people. Last i checked there isn't enough evidence to prove god doesn't exist either When these atheists group together they in a sense form a cult\ religion which is why i said they are hypocrites. So i wasn't being silly mate, its all about perception.

 

Evidence for the non-existence of god? You are being silly. Are you familiar with a 'burden of proof'?

 

So because like minded people group together they are being hypocritical? Silliness again. Religion lays no exclusive claims to people's ability to group together.

 

It's only about perception from you're perspective. From my perspective its about whether or not god exists. And the burden is upon the one making the claim to prove the truth of their claim. This is basic stuff.

 

Also, I might add. That a claim that cannot be disproven is worse than wrong, it is not even wrong. As a view towards attaining truth it is rendered worse than useless.

 

By the by, would you consider 'non-stamp collectors' to be a group of people?

Edited March 23, 2012 by toonotl

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. Case dismissed. Not sure if that's Hitch or if he nabbed it from somewhere.

[toonotl 2961]

People are entitled to send whatever well wishes they want be it prayer or simply keeping someone else in their thoughts.

 

Religion to me has always been something that should be personal rather than forced on atheism, the same is true of atheist wumming too which is becoming quite a popular past time nowadays.

I agree with you there militant athesists really do get on my nerves, it seems like all they want is attention, and in a way have become a religon themselves massive hypocrites i have to say. I think people should stop critizing others religons and their belif in god. People need to look for reasons to LOVE not hate.

 

Completely disagree and I think there is a great need at present to criticize and challenge various belief systems, there are people actively trying to radicalize people in order to get them to commit murder, we have seen an unfortunate example of a radicalized youth in France this past week. 'Atheists have become a religion themselves' is a tired cliche often peddled these days. The various debates over faith and religious matters have the potential to be very interesting and should be encouraged.

 

Yep. And people that believe in the notion of a god in any form only act to validate the more radical fundamental elements of religion on a base level.

[toonotl 2961]

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. Case dismissed. Not sure if that's Hitch or if he nabbed it from somewhere.

 

Yeh I think it is. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is another one. All good god busting stuff.

Edited March 23, 2012 by toonotl

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

It's always the same case profile: loner, poor education, feels ostracised from society. Can't get a girl to save his life, maybe has had relations with the village goat, but even that is no sure thing. Gets in with some beardy types and before you know it he's off backpacking to Kandahar and some mountains in Pakistan. Comes back radicalized and does something terrible. If only they could be taught that religion is a lie, and educated about basic hygeine and the rudiments of cunniglingus, they'd have a much fairer chance of getting to the promised land. Faith is unfortunately still seen as a virtue, and therefore it becomes very difficult to educate these people out of a potentially deadly belief system.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[toonotl 2961]

Indeed. The stupid will always cleeve to religion as in their minds it elevates them above their station. Its a pity that self-worth can eroded as easily as masturbating in the direction of Mecca from mother's basement.

[toonarmy108 0]

For gods sake i haven't read more ignorant posts in my whole life. You guys need to check out Hinduism seems like you guys just focus on Islam and Christianity, also check out Buddhism. Seems as if your thinking is blinded by hatred. I could compare you to those brainwashed terrorists, and if you think Islam preaches this terrorist shit, then you are wrong. try to study and understand the religion first.

Edited March 23, 2012 by toonarmy108

[trophyshy 7073]

Says the man with the ORANGE turbot.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Seems as if your thinking is blinded by bullshit. Buddhism, yeah absolutely wonderful.

 

 

OH HERRO THER I JUS COME TO SAY HAI IN BETWEEN LAPE AT NANJING WITH MY LUVRY BUDDHIST ARMY GUYS.

[toonotl 2961]

For gods sake i haven't read more ignorant posts in my whole life. You guys need to check out Hinduism seems like you guys just focus on Islam and Christianity, also check out Buddhism. Seems as if your thinking is blinded by hatred. I could compare you to those brainwashed terrorists, and if you think Islam preaches this terrorist shit, then you are wrong. try to study and understand the religion first.

 

What's buddhism?

[toonotl 2961]

Seems as if your thinking is blinded by bullshit. Buddhism, yeah absolutely wonderful.

 

 

OH HERRO THER I JUS COME TO SAY HAI IN BETWEEN LAPE AT NANJING WITH MY LUVRY BUDDHIST ARMY GUYS.

 

Fuck you mongrorians!!

[SloopJohn 0]

So you seem to think that the truth is important? So why defend the role that a lie has played in the history of humanity? It seems redundant. Like arguing about the validity of LotR fan fiction. I would suggest also that your position holds even less weight when considering that one side of the argument has a distinct motivation to distort the truth.

 

In this discussion you have the distinct advantage of having read more about the history of a lie written by the liars than any of us. Congrats, but in the course of history anything that christianity has ever achieved or set out to achieve is tarnished by their overt, and required overarching, motive to reinforce their beliefs. That renders anything they accomplish or claim to have accomplished questionable at best.

 

I'm not defending the 'lie' of religion in itself, I'm defending historical truth; researched by historians very few of whom are religious. If defending the truth seems to redundant to you then I wonder why you are even replying to my answers. And in terms of the motivation to distort of the truth being only the side of the religious - have you read God Is Not Great? - it's embarrassingly inaccurate in terms of it's historical facts and, strangely enough, every error that Hitchens commits seems to favour his arguments...

 

I fail to see how ones motivation to do something effects the quality of it's outcome. Are Kepler's and Pascal's pioneering scientific achievements really rendered inconsequential because of their overt Christianity? Is the American civil rights movement tarnished because of Luther Kings faith? Is Dreyer's cinema ruined by his Protestantism? Is Tolstoy's literature irrelevant because of his religious extremism? Is the Human Genome Project less worthy of admiration because it was once headed up by Francis Collins?

 

I would argue that the progression of humanity has been achieved in spite of christianity rather than because of it. That can be seen as christianity slowly, but not holistically, lets go of segments of their rediculous dogma. Science leads the way and religion tags alone in the background saying, 'Yeah, yeah, that's what we say too'. If you think that deserves any credence then thats your prerogative.

 

Of course it's my prerogative. However I am yet to see you come up with any depth of argument to further your claim that humanity has progressed, over the past 800 years, in spite of Christianity. I can think of many recently, particularly the current issue of the church's stance on gay marriage, so that might be a good place to start.

 

Indeed as I mentioned in that other topic, the idea of progress itself is largely one inherited from theology and really should be discarded if society wishes to free itself from the burdens of its religious past. But it's too convenient for humanism's philosophical rhetoric so, of course, it's retained within secular thought despite having absolutely no logical foundation outside of a theistic framework (I'm just paraphrasing Schopenhauer and Gray here).

 

All in all I'll say this. Religion is a lie. And at the end of day that's all that really matters. When you start with a lie that lie must be defended and the more invested you become in that lie the more aggressively you must defend it. I'll leave you to deduce where that leads in terms of the validity of your argument.

 

Throughout this debate I have always defended my historical position with evidence - I don't see how this is defending a 'lie' because at no moment have I been defending Christianity as philosophical system nor have I been defending it's historical origins in the life and death of Jesus Christ. I've simply defended what is believed by myself, and many other secular academics, to be true.

 

If you want to get into the business of what is literally 'true' or 'false' in our perception world then I'm happy to go there, despite not being the best qualified person, but it is a rather substantial can of worms that is nowhere near as simple as it seems.

[Guest CabayeAye]

Thanks to the contributors to this thread, very interesting conversation.

 

Sloop your encyclopaedic knowledge of the protagonists in this journey is impressive (and slightly bewildering), that much has to be acknowledged.

 

Is this a personal interest or work/study related? Tell me to mind my own business if I'm twisting your free will.

 

Seemingly nowt wrong with Muamba after 78 minutes of being dead. That's as close to miraculous as it gets tbf.

 

Well I studied Eastern philosophy a bit in my MA so that got my interested, plus one of my best friends did a PhD in Ethics at Oxford and is a pretty strong Christian so he was always challenging me, particularly during my more nihilistic years

 

If that's true, and you can get a PhD in Ethics whilst being strongly Christian, it speaks volumes about the reasons why society has gone down the shitter.

 

Although, to an extent for your defence, I can see a very stong argument for Nihilism.

[ChezGiven 0]

SJ, The science and religion point is ridiculous, being religious in the 15th to 19th centuries was a bit like being 'non-racist' today I.e. it was socially unacceptable to be an atheist and in some cases punishable by death. Linking scientific achievement in this period to religiousness is like linking scientific achievement today to being non-racist. It's a prevalent belief and is associated with the individual's holding these beliefs also contributing great scientific advancement. Your argument is one of loose association.

 

As for the fallacy that humanity has not advanced or is no less violent, this is nonsense from many perspectives. Starting with violence and deaths from wars, the number of people killed in battle per 100,000 population is now 3/10 per 100,000. The earliest estimates in history put this at 500 per 100,000. Murder rates in Europe were 100 per 100,000 in the 14th and 15th centuries, they are now at 1 per 100,000. Some estimate that there are 1.2 million deaths in the old testament, the stories of torture in the medieval period etc all show a world that is becoming was very inhumane. That is all changing with more countries being democracies, less dictators, less violent oppression. The 20th century shows the most startling data, studies by the UN show remarkable decreases in violent deaths (although an increase in the number of wars). Look up Pinker, Mack etc for sources on data relating to a less violent earth.

 

To that perspective, we can add that humanity is advancing at an even greater rate today in the 21st century, just as religion is fading into obscurity, medicine, politics, economics and international law are being applied with increasing humanity. The best correlation statistic for all this? Human IQ. The best thing you can give anyone is an education, not a religion.

[NJS 4375]

The only downside is the increased birthrates in the third world which the religious try and sell as a positive for their particular brand.

 

The only real hope is education as Chez says.

[toonarmy108 0]

Great point Chez, people should get educated about religion before they go criticizing it. I always thought gays were weirdos, until i learned in my psychology class that they have a gene defect and that is why they act like, their hypothalamus changes before or shortly after they are born and becomes like the opposite sex. Scientifically speaking its called a gene defect because the animal or human with it does not reproduce thus not spreading its genes which by science's view is a defect. So please don't take offense and i hope this information will help you become more sympathetic and tolerant of gays. Education is the most important thing in this world i feel, other then love of course:)

[toonarmy108 0]

Says the man with the ORANGE turbot.

That is actually not a turban the man is a Hindu and his name is Swami Vivekananda, he was a great philosopher and religious leader. As Chez said this why education is important

[Gemmill 44491]

got to be a KSA spoof account.