NJS 4389 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 His fiancee, Shauna Magunda, the mother of his son Joshua, posted on Twitter on Monday evening: "All your prayers are working people. Thank you so so much. Fabrice has felt every single prayer. Guys you've been incredible!" If it's "God" making him better, then why bother with the hospital? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Also, it's impossible to prove that we do or don't have free will and ultimately pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 There's a difference between the concept of free will and free will itself. Are you arguing that people before Jehovah made himself apparent (before disappearing again lately of course) had no free will? If so I think you're barking. I'm arguing that free will wasn't even an idea back then, because it made no sense logically in their view of the world I'm also arguing that outside a Monotheistic view of the world free will doesn't exist - it's inherently as false a belief as the idea that Christ died for our sins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14013 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 His fiancee, Shauna Magunda, the mother of his son Joshua, posted on Twitter on Monday evening: "All your prayers are working people. Thank you so so much. Fabrice has felt every single prayer. Guys you've been incredible!" If it's "God" making him better, then why bother with the hospital? I was pointing out the effect on the moral of his relatives and how it's a positive thing. People are all too quick to have a swipe at religion because it's an easy target. One of my best friends is a Doctor, very, very intelligent and hard working but he has time for a rosary. So what man? In regards to Muamba - fair enough it may have been a shallow gesture for some - but for others it may have been sincere. Why are people so quick to look for the bad? It's quite saddening at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Classic example of why theology is a waste of time. Barking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Think this thread needs to be moved and renamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Classic example of why theology is a waste of time. Barking. It's secular philosophy dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) There's a difference between the concept of free will and free will itself. Are you arguing that people before Jehovah made himself apparent (before disappearing again lately of course) had no free will? If so I think you're barking. I'm arguing that free will wasn't even an idea back then, because it made no sense logically in their view of the world I'm also arguing that outside a Monotheistic view of the world free will doesn't exist - it's inherently as false a belief as the idea that Christ died for our sins But assuming the idea was spawned (or hijacked) by a religion, to what end, a land grab? Looks like these folks are starting to think for themselves, fucking hell! We better tell them that God bestowed that on them... OOH! NICE SAVE! I think before concepts of gods, be they pagan or otherwise, free will existed and was so tacit that it didn't need a label. You could put together a convincing argument that religion robbed us of free will. And citing anything written by people from 2000+ years ago, filtered by those in power with their human agendas, is inherently flawed as an explanation for anything. There are what can be interpreted as UFO's described in the bible, but believe in them and you're a nutter, even though people still see hundreds every year. Not faith based so rubbished. Faith based, well then..has to remain believed by many and unquestioned by most. Edited March 20, 2012 by trophyshy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Is it? Seems to be coming from an a priori view that God exists to me. Definitely not 'secular', how do you make that out? Either way it's quite insane. Edit: @ SJ Edited March 20, 2012 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bias 3 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 First of all, I sincerely hope that Fabrice Muamba makes a speedy recovery. It makes me feel a bit queazy that a young professional footballer in the prime of his youth can fall so seriously ill like this, and because of this I cannot imagine what his family and friends are going through. I so hope that he pulls through, and its fantastic news that his condition seems to be improving...albeit ever so slightly. But I cannot help ask, why has there been such an emphasis on god/prayer in this? Everything written/posted/read on behalf of members of the footballing community (Who no doubt have the same well-wishing sentiment at heart) is infused with religious rhetoric. Are that many people sincerely religious and hold so much faith in a god that they can count on their prayers for an antidote to whatever he has fallen so seriously ill with? This is a genuine question, as I just find it really strange. I know that Coyle is 'born again'... but surely that isn't the reason why? Nor can it be so simple as that surrounding death or serious illness/threat to mortality that people look towards something bigger than themselves. Don't mean this to sound dickish at all... I respect other people's religious opinions. Just wondered if other people had any thoughts. A Do you know what I was wondering the exact same thing. Good post and some good responses on here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Is it? Seems to be coming from an a priori view that God exists to me. Definitely not 'secular', how do you make that out? Either way it's quite insane. Edit: @ SJ Its secular because it's a view that comes from atheistic philosophers - Gray, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Dawkins - all believe or believed - free will is an illusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9478 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Erm.... Murdered,raped,enslaved, exploited minorities etc etc Always find it interesting hove those who are "humanist" deride religion which was the very catalyst for said humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4774 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 oh please mods, admin, someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Dave 0 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Look. I had a lovely bit of halibut so I said to the wife that that fish was good enough for Jehovah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TicTacWoe 0 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 oh please mods, admin, someone Stop derailing the thread man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CabayeAye Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Erm.... Murdered,raped,enslaved, exploited minorities etc etc Always find it interesting hove those who are "humanist" deride religion which was the very catalyst for said humanity. What the fuck? The Crusades, Jihad, Sectarianism in Iraq and Ireland, the Spanish Inquisition, enslaving of the Jews, rampant child abuse... Yeah, religion has been a fucking excellent yardstick for morals! Probably put us back at least 1000 years socially! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44995 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 oh please mods, admin, someone What's the problem like? It's an interesting discussion. There's a stunningly simple option if you don't want to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Is it? Seems to be coming from an a priori view that God exists to me. Definitely not 'secular', how do you make that out? Either way it's quite insane. Edit: @ SJ Its secular because it's a view that comes from atheistic philosophers - Gray, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Dawkins - all believe or believed - free will is an illusion 'What is the nature of free will?' Frankly I'll leave that to philosophy graduates as they day dream away the day serving big macs. But that isn't really what you were on about though is it? You suggested the notion that God created free will was somehow a secular philosophy. That is clearly bollocks. Like I said, I haven't got the time or appitude to read these philosopher's thoughts, but I have read enough of Dawkins to know that he believes we have free will above our biological impulses. So you at least made that one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Erm.... Murdered,raped,enslaved, exploited minorities etc etc Always find it interesting hove those who are "humanist" deride religion which was the very catalyst for said humanity. All of those things have happened in the name of religion too, what's the common theme? Are you being interested by your belief that civilisation can only occur because of religion? Unprovable without a time machine, and you could argue religion has destroyed plenty along the way. Animals readily organise themselves into civilisations, for the greater good of all. How did these get going? Men and women have self organised into civilised society dozens perhaps even thousands of times all over Earth throughout thousands or indeed tens of thousands of years. There may have been numerous different religious elements to these systems, they may have been there at the beginning or developed as the result of having time to consider such matters by being freed from living hand to mouth, but what was the common theme through time and space? People. They create civilisations, they create religions, they create gods. Even if it were so that our invention of religion provided us with a stepping stone to civilisation it has also built walls between civilisations, literally, and ones that will seemingly never topple. If we could objectively acknowledge this phenomena for what it is we could begin to unpick the damage it does in today's society. But as it is closely associated with peoples' desire for meaning, love for their departed and the fact they have so much invested in it it would require such monumental effort, courage and determination, on an individual and group level, it's likely a lost cause. This makes me wonder if this happens with all intelligent civilisations or if any have broken free of this initial explanation tether. If they have perhaps they'd consider telling us how they did it, if we weren't still interested in blowing eachother, and most likely them, to Kingdom Come. Edited March 20, 2012 by trophyshy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9478 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Erm.... Murdered,raped,enslaved, exploited minorities etc etc Always find it interesting hove those who are "humanist" deride religion which was the very catalyst for said humanity. What the fuck? The Crusades, Jihad, Sectarianism in Iraq and Ireland, the Spanish Inquisition, enslaving of the Jews, rampant child abuse... Yeah, religion has been a fucking excellent yardstick for morals! Probably put us back at least 1000 years socially! Do you understand what a catalyst is?? Given even with religion mankind has a propensity to commit awfull acts, where'd mankind be without it ?? Put us back 1000 years is laughable, how humane was mankind before Christianity grew up, as an example. Any definition of morals in the western world evolved from the ten commandments, where else did humanity come from?? There was no "humane" society before, damn sure there wouldn't be without it. Look at nature, survival of the fittest in action. Mankind has to a point risen above that, if not religion what was the catalyst?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9478 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just as stupid as the idea that Jehovah gave us morals. What did we do for the thousands of years before that? Erm.... Murdered,raped,enslaved, exploited minorities etc etc Always find it interesting hove those who are "humanist" deride religion which was the very catalyst for said humanity. All of those things have happened in the name of religion too, what's the common theme? Are you being interested by your belief that civilisation can only occur because of religion? Unprovable without a time machine, and you could argue religion has destroyed plenty along the way. Animals readily organise themselves into civilisations, for the greater good of all. How did these get going? Men and women have self organised into civilised society dozens perhaps even thousands of times all over Earth throughout thousands or indeed tens of thousands of years. There may have been numerous different religious elements to these systems, they may have been there at the beginning or developed as the result of having time to consider such matters by being freed from living hand to mouth, but what was the common theme through time and space? People. They create civilisations, they create religions, they create gods. Even if it were so that our invention of religion provided us with a stepping stone to civilisation it has also built walls between civilisations, literally, and ones that will seemingly never topple. If we could objectively acknowledge this phenomena for what it is we could begin to unpick the damage it does in today's society. But as it is closely associated with peoples' desire for meaning, love for their departed and the fact they have so much invested in it it would require such monumental effort, courage and determination, on an individual and group level, it's likely a lost cause. This makes me wonder if this happens with all intelligent civilisations or if any have broken free of this initial explanation tether. If they have perhaps they'd consider telling us how they did it, if we weren't still interested in blowing eachother, and most likely them, to Kingdom Come. Sorry but saying animals have developed civilisations for the good of all, nature is the most tribal and brutal "thing" on the planet. I'd also question these self developed human civilisations over tens of thousands of years, can't think of any that we're "humane" or all encompasing and without walls. Mankind is by nature a cunt and always will be, civilisations don't last, neither will ours which happens to be the most tolerant in history I would suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Do you understand what a catalyst is?? Given even with religion mankind has a propensity to commit awfull acts, where'd mankind be without it ?? Put us back 1000 years is laughable, how humane was mankind before Christianity grew up, as an example. Any definition of morals in the western world evolved from the ten commandments, where else did humanity come from?? There was no "humane" society before, damn sure there wouldn't be without it. Look at nature, survival of the fittest in action. Mankind has to a point risen above that, if not religion what was the catalyst?? Perhaps from, you know, humans? Would you agree that most of the 'civilised' and compassionate countries in the world now - Western Europe, Japan - sre largely secular. How is that possible? And the least civilised - Africa, Middle East, South America, USA - what are they exactly? If religion was a catalyst, would you say it has now served its purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Sorry but saying animals have developed civilisations for the good of all, nature is the most tribal and brutal "thing" on the planet. I'd also question these self developed human civilisations over tens of thousands of years, can't think of any that we're "humane" or all encompasing and without walls. Mankind is by nature a cunt and always will be, civilisations don't last, neither will ours which happens to be the most tolerant in history I would suggest. Well neither do religions. What's your point here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Sorry but saying animals have developed civilisations for the good of all, nature is the most tribal and brutal "thing" on the planet. I'd also question these self developed human civilisations over tens of thousands of years, can't think of any that we're "humane" or all encompasing and without walls. Mankind is by nature a cunt and always will be, civilisations don't last, neither will ours which happens to be the most tolerant in history I would suggest. All those in their societies, of their species yes. They compete with other societies of there own species, just as we do. I won't bore you with the numerous examples, but it is an extremely common phenomena. You must have seen David Attenborough on about it at some stage. And no animal has ever done anything as brutal as Hiroshima. We're just very bright animals that made a load of shit up, part of that shit was that we are special, not animals and someone is looking out for us. Society and civilisation are always in flux and have reverted too, but I'd say organising to build large structures is as good a measure of civilisation as any without a time machine. Göbekli Tepe is reported as being around 12,000 years old. I mostly agree with your final point, it's our potential that bugs me. Edited March 20, 2012 by trophyshy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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