Park Life 71 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No one, but no one, thinks that the health and social care bill returning to parliament this week is any good. Nurses and doctors have lined up to denounce it – even GPs, whom the legislation claims to put in charge. Professional resistance can be dismissed as "producer interest", but not so the joint editorial published by three specialist periodicals, including the Health Service Journal. The journal is generally supportive of exposing medicine to competition, yet it damns the particular market-based reforms on offer as "unnecessary, poorly conceived, badly communicated" and "a dangerous distraction". Meanwhile, a committee dominated by coalition MPs has just concluded that the current upheaval "complicates" necessary cost-cutting, and displaces "truly effective" reforms. Even the health secretary cannot any longer really believe in the watered-down product he is saddled with punting. The one hope for the bill which Andrew Lansley had originally articulated intelligibly was removing politics from healthcare. But, after a year of amendments and grudging stand-offs with the Liberal Democrats, he has utterly failed in this – as is underlined by the latest concession, which explicitly reaffirms that he will retain full political responsibility to parliament. Having foolishly nodded the legislation through in the Commons, the Lib Dems blundered again by failing to kill the bill – as they could have done – when their members and peers revolted. Instead, they settled for fudge. The bill before parliament is littered with warm words such as "integrated", which mean entirely different things to advocates of planning and cheerleaders for restructured competition. It may well fall to the courts to determine what on earth whole passages mean. And yet – carried along only by the crack of the government whip – this unloved legislation rolls towards the statute book. The strongest remaining argument for passing it is that the hard-to-manage mess of half-disbanded care trusts could descend into uncontrollable chaos if new rules and structures of some sort, however flawed, are not agreed on soon. Mr Lansley's great error was to allow the charged words "Tory", "cuts", "health" and above all "privatisation" to combine to become the story of the bill. The technocrat imagined that he could quietly impose a new healthcare market, and that England would soon bow to its logic. He not only misread opinion, but also mistook a well-founded concern to restrain medical profiteering for socialistic superstition. Last month the Guardian revealed that millions were being diverted to the likes of KPMG and McKinsey to teach "business skills" to GPs. On Friday, it emerged that a cash-strapped health department was having to stump up £1.5bn to trusts that cannot afford repayments under the PFI – the last great brainwave for getting the private sector involved. Public fear of racketeering is not boneheadedness. The medical marketplace will never be one where consumers (or, as they were once known, patients) can be sovereign – the knowledge gap with "producers" is too great. David Cameron, like Mr Lansley, initially banked on voters being indifferent to health service structures so long as health service standards were maintained. He might have been right, too, were it not for the fact that the NHS is facing the sharpest spending squeeze in history. Seduced, perhaps, by his own comforting rhetoric about not cutting the service, the prime minister failed to see it coming. But with the queues for treatment lengthening – long waits are already up by 43% since the coalition came to power – the presumed indifference will soon give way to rage. Comments from elsewhere: "The pathologist, et al, has already carved up and shared out what they want of the NHS. The overseas vulture capitalists all ready and waiting to swoop, many of them waiting on the wings will have majority shareholders in our very own green and pleasant land, already set up and ready to go. When they implement their will on their ideologies, it will be the slab for the NHS. If you are unable to pay, you will simply remain ill and face a possibly miserable end, there are whispers of pain relief having to be paid for by the individual, be it out of their benefits if need be, to be deducted at source. May their souls rot in hell." Shortly after Southern Cross is revealed as an emphatic private sector failure in caring for the elderly the government states that all public services are now 'fair game' to be opened up to private corporations short of investment opportunities. Both Marx and David Harvey warn about the creative destruction which takes place during economic crises as private investors experience surplus capital absorption problems - with the structural problems in the British economy there simply aren't enough profitable opportunities for the vast swathes of private and financial capital to continue to grow at 3% PA. The role of national and local government is thus becoming staedily transformed away from providing municipal and socal services to facilitating further investment opportunities for private capital - look at the profits made by G4S and other large scale private providers through taking over services that were previously the responsibilty of the state. The Government has made it clear that they are determined to take on the public sector unions in one last great conflict with organised labour. This drive toward privatisation has also made clear by their refusal to negotiate with unions on the viability of public sector pensions in the education and health sectors and their point blank refusal to subject the fund to an independent audit to properly assess its economic viabilty. This is because the main obstacle to any private sector investment into health and education is that investors are completely unwilling to meet the financial obligations of present public sector pension arrangements. The aim is thus to radically restructure public sector employment - schools run by ex-armed forces personnel and owned by Carphone Warehouse and hospitals run by care assistants on short term, insecure private employment style contracts. That's why it is vitally important that we continue to undertake industrial action and that the trade unions stand firm and resist the destruction of our public services currently taking place through their costly and un-necessary privatisation plans. A leaked email by Lord Owen to the Labour party touts the possibility of a Lib Dem revolt and the possibility of combining with Milliband to try for a vote of 'no confidence' against the governments reforms. This appears to provide a potential opportunity to halt the NHS reforms: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9037011/Lord-Owens-plot-to-topple-the-Coalition.html Otherwise in years to come when private providers and insurance companies are sucking up billiions in public money, we will bitterly regret allowing these changes to happen so easily without putting up a serious fight to defend such hard won gains as the right to free health care." Wasn't in the Tory mandate iirc to mess with the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've got a Band 9 and a Band 8C as parents are they both think the new bill is fucking hopeless. That's enough for me. My job has changed beyond recognition as I spend most of my day ticking boxes to show what I have done that my boss can claim for and get paid for by the commissioners, as opposed to how many patient's I have actually made well. It just a fucking con by the Tories to make the NHS profitable and push it towards privatisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15856 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I can't claim to have any real knowledge of the situation, least of all "from the inside" like you, but I thought the first letter here - whether from a biased POV or not - set things out pretty clearly (and pretty terrifyingly): http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jan/20/where-the-nhs-is-heading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I can't claim to have any real knowledge of the situation, least of all "from the inside" like you, but I thought the first letter here - whether from a biased POV or not - set things out pretty clearly (and pretty terrifyingly): http://www.guardian....-nhs-is-heading That's pretty scary shit like. People need to try living in places like Germany where you pay through the nose for health insurance and they ask for the card when you take your child to the hospital before they even ask you what's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've got a Band 9 and a Band 8C as parents are they both think the new bill is fucking hopeless. That's enough for me. They must be minted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 More cash than me, but NHS wages are NHS wages, and tax takes out a canny chunk too so they won't be retiring any time soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 22401 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 More cash than me, but NHS wages are NHS wages, and tax takes out a canny chunk too so they won't be retiring any time soon Combined salary of 165,000 quid and living in the NE? If they can't retire who can!? Anyway, the NHS is in a state of absolute shambles, which was entirely avoidable. Expect the negative effects to hit patient care proper by next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I can't claim to have any real knowledge of the situation, least of all "from the inside" like you, but I thought the first letter here - whether from a biased POV or not - set things out pretty clearly (and pretty terrifyingly): http://www.guardian....-nhs-is-heading That's pretty scary shit like. People need to try living in places like Germany where you pay through the nose for health insurance and they ask for the card when you take your child to the hospital before they even ask you what's wrong. Health outcomes are good though, Germany started all this social welfare thing with Bismarck and the German system retains the core principles set out in the 1860s. It was of course Bizmarck who later inspired Bevan when setting up our own system. I told you this was going to happen 4 years ago, did you listen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 They aren't on top whack and after deductions its nearer half that amount take home pay. Canny nonetheless but they won't be buying a villa in Monaco anytime soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I can't claim to have any real knowledge of the situation, least of all "from the inside" like you, but I thought the first letter here - whether from a biased POV or not - set things out pretty clearly (and pretty terrifyingly): http://www.guardian....-nhs-is-heading That's pretty scary shit like. People need to try living in places like Germany where you pay through the nose for health insurance and they ask for the card when you take your child to the hospital before they even ask you what's wrong. Health outcomes are good though, Germany started all this social welfare thing with Bismarck and the German system retains the core principles set out in the 1860s. It was of course Bizmarck who later inspired Bevan when setting up our own system. I told you this was going to happen 4 years ago, did you listen? We're lashing out £450 a month nearly on healthcare here (on a family package). It's a lot of dough man. I can't see anybody in England putting up with that shit. I know we discussed this before and you've been fairly balanced about it with regard to finding a balance. I'm not an expert on it. Would be good for the thread if you laid out the best way forward. I'm oldskool and want to keep private finance and especially vultures from America as fukin far away from the NHS as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Royal College: "Bill will cause irreparable damage to the NHS". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 That's the plan imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Just strikes me as another ideological move using the financial climate as an excuse. Hopefully it'll be massively damaging to the government. I can't believe the Lib-Dems would support it though. I think the result is they'll be absolutely decimated as a party if and when they do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22515 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 outrageous that this bill could end up on the statute book. fucking tories man - stop fucking with the nhs! for all its faults, it's a great british institution worth fighting for. the lib dems could have done a lot more in that regard, the cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Think it's more wanting to be in power than cowardice. Same net result either way though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22515 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 what's the point in being in power if you abandon all your principles in the process? they've taken arse raping after arse raping from their coalition "partners". clegg has set the party back 20 years. they've lost any credibility they once have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 what's the point in being in power if you abandon all your principles in the process? they've taken arse raping after arse raping from their coalition "partners". clegg has set the party back 20 years. they've lost any credibility they once have. Well, you're in power. I get the feeling that's all Clegg's arsed about tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 0 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) I'm surprised they are willing to hang themselves on this. The NHS is a hugely emotive subject and Cameron's staunch defence of it was, IMO, a major votewinner for him in the election. The idea that private is always better is bollocks. Some services are better delivered privately, others are best as part of the state- health and education being two of the latter. Edited February 9, 2012 by Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 There is also the issue of Euro competition law once they start privatising bits of the NHS...Can of worms imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Reforms are needed btw, because the NHS costs too much and is bloated in many areas. This isn't the way to do it however. Commissioning services to the lowest bidder is a great way of lowering standards rather than vice versa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 0 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Has no-one in HMG thought that once the NHS is destroyed as a public service into profit-making units, its legions of valuable and well-qualified staff will suddenly decide they would like more money? They can always go work for another provider, after all. Most outsourcing agreements are based on the idea that multiple small-scale operations are better carried out by a larger specialist which can pool greater resources. It usually works for catering and bin collecting. This is the opposite, they are looking to break down the biggest healthcare provider in the world into smaller chunks, each taking a skim along the way. Labour and the Libs will clearly be against it, it's not universally loved by Tories either and I suspect Cameron is not that hot on it either. He is being pressed by the lobbyists and far-right backbenchers. They will lose the vote on this for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 We're lashing out £450 a month nearly on healthcare here (on a family package). It's a lot of dough man. I can't see anybody in England putting up with that shit. I know we discussed this before and you've been fairly balanced about it with regard to finding a balance. I'm not an expert on it. Would be good for the thread if you laid out the best way forward. I'm oldskool and want to keep private finance and especially vultures from America as fukin far away from the NHS as possible. How much do you and Mrs earn per year though? You're self-employed too so i guess you need to subscribe to one of the sick funds, yes? Normally the employer would cover this but I assume that you're out of pocket expense on healthcare is offset through company tax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Watch Michael Moores sicko to see why this is a bad idea. Can't afford your medication in America? Tough shit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 22401 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Reforms are needed btw, because the NHS costs too much and is bloated in many areas. This isn't the way to do it however. Commissioning services to the lowest bidder is a great way of lowering standards rather than vice versa NHS costs too much? Really? Compared to what? Anyway: http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.com/2012/02/we-can-now-reveal-what-really-happened.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 There is a deep beauty about everything that is wrong with the NHS. It is the most intense beauty one finds anywhere in the world. It is what England is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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