Would you swap Demba Ba for Andy Carroll?

[Tottenham Dave 0]

He came on during the second half of the season in the CCC and started scoring regularly. His performances up to then had been largely shite, although he was just breaking through. Then he scored 11 in the PL, but it wasn't like Ba who is capable of scoring against the top teams and is genuinely one of the better finishers in the PL. He scored a hattrick against an utterly dismal Villa team after MON left, he scored a tap in against Chelsea after a defensive fuck-up, then he scored some good headers. He is a terrific header of the ball. He occasionally smashes a good shot in, like he did against Liverpool when all their defenders backed off and off until he shot, and Dalglish decided he was the new Stoichkov, but his general play and technique isn't great. I think people were excited because that could always improve with him being so young and inexperienced, and he was still scoring regularly (up to halfway through the season).

 

I thought his finish against Oldham was good, it's just a shame for him it was only Oldham as people will automatically say "he's found his level" etc

I mean, even Downing scored in that game!

 

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's the most slated player in the Prem at the minute, maybe he'll come good.

 

He needs to up his goal scoring though.

 

If you compare him to Defoe, who whilst obviously a different type of player, is still a striker, his record is poor:

 

 

First spell at Spurs:

139 apps 93 goals

Current spell:

78 apps 32 goals

 

Bearing in mind he is predominantly a sub these days, those are pretty good figures in my book.

 

Even when he's played for teams that aren't as good and therefore wont create as many chances, his record is good:

 

Bournemouth:

29 apps 28 goals (level of oppo is relevant)

 

West Ham:

93 apps 56 goals

 

Portsmouth:

31 apps 15 goals.

 

And Defoe gets stick!

[hostile_statue 0]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

[The Fish 10849]

He came on during the second half of the season in the CCC and started scoring regularly. His performances up to then had been largely shite, although he was just breaking through. Then he scored 11 in the PL, but it wasn't like Ba who is capable of scoring against the top teams and is genuinely one of the better finishers in the PL. He scored a hattrick against an utterly dismal Villa team after MON left, he scored a tap in against Chelsea after a defensive fuck-up, then he scored some good headers. He is a terrific header of the ball. He occasionally smashes a good shot in, like he did against Liverpool when all their defenders backed off and off until he shot, and Dalglish decided he was the new Stoichkov, but his general play and technique isn't great. I think people were excited because that could always improve with him being so young and inexperienced, and he was still scoring regularly (up to halfway through the season).

 

I thought his finish against Oldham was good, it's just a shame for him it was only Oldham as people will automatically say "he's found his level" etc

I mean, even Downing scored in that game!

 

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's the most slated player in the Prem at the minute, maybe he'll come good.

 

He needs to up his goal scoring though.

 

If you compare him to Defoe, who whilst obviously a different type of player, is still a striker, his record is poor:

 

 

First spell at Spurs:

139 apps 93 goals

Current spell:

78 apps 32 goals

 

Bearing in mind he is predominantly a sub these days, those are pretty good figures in my book.

 

Even when he's played for teams that aren't as good and therefore wont create as many chances, his record is good:

 

Bournemouth:

29 apps 28 goals (level of oppo is relevant)

 

West Ham:

93 apps 56 goals

 

Portsmouth:

31 apps 15 goals.

 

And Defoe gets stick!

 

Not being funny, but that says more about your fans than anything else. Carroll gets stick because of the huge spotlight on him after the move and the huge target he paints on his own back with his antics off the pitch. People will forget average performances from you if you're anonymous (see Henderson), and they'll forgive indiscretions if you're performing on the pitch (see Suarez).

 

Defoe has a decent record, but he's not consistent. He'll not score for 5 games, then get a haul, on paper he's got 5 in 5 which is a phenomenal record, but in actual fact he's just put 5 past a shit Wigan side that you would have beaten anyway. Add to that he's never been a grafting type of player who contributes more than just goals to a side and I can see why he's dropped. At least Bellamy works his bollocks off all game and provides a stack of assists.

 

Carroll could be a top quality centre forward if he moves out of the spotlight and grows naturally into his game and if he grows up off the pitch. Put it this way, if he'd recieved the same service from Liverpool all season as he did from Gerrard against us, he'd not be under the pressure he is.

 

It's like Torres at Chelsea, the guy is clearly a good striker, but for whatever reason he's not scoring. I think initially it was a system issue, then confidence. Now that Mata is becoming more integral and Torres' confidence is growing, you'll see goals flowing.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

His overall play was very impressive,

 

No it wasn't, it was shit at times, the impressive part of his game was heading the ball which apparently destroys 3 million brain cells every time you do it, so he was always destined for a short career.

at times it was shit, other times it was impressive. At times Shearer was shit. Overall Andy Carroll was playing at a good standard, so much so he had teams sniffing around him, and then a big team taking a punt (admittedly for stupid money)

 

When was Shearer shit? Every touch he took was like a masterstroke from Michelangelo and Da Vinci combined, but with a foot hitting a football instead of a brush on a canvas. He was the Geordie Hero, even jackie Milburn and Hughie Gallagher could not hold a candle to him and their ghosts visited him like Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda training the new master apprentice. Shearer's hold up play was far superior to Carroll's, Shearer always used the ball intelligently, whereas the most intelligent thing Carroll has ever done is blowing up Nolan's Range Rover.

 

The only manager thick enough to buy Carroll was the Glasweigan petrol-pump-sucking halfwit Kenny Dalglish, after Carroll scored a nice goal against Liverpool. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the top teams in Europe tried to buy a few of our current players because they're genuinely CL standard. Carroll was never that good.

[Tottenham Dave 0]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

 

No, in fact his record as a youngster was comparable to now.

 

 

His figures as a youngster are those at Bournemouth and West Ham.

 

Great stats.

[trophyshy 7083]

He scored an absolute cracker against Liverpool. That's how Kenny works.

[Tottenham Dave 0]

He came on during the second half of the season in the CCC and started scoring regularly. His performances up to then had been largely shite, although he was just breaking through. Then he scored 11 in the PL, but it wasn't like Ba who is capable of scoring against the top teams and is genuinely one of the better finishers in the PL. He scored a hattrick against an utterly dismal Villa team after MON left, he scored a tap in against Chelsea after a defensive fuck-up, then he scored some good headers. He is a terrific header of the ball. He occasionally smashes a good shot in, like he did against Liverpool when all their defenders backed off and off until he shot, and Dalglish decided he was the new Stoichkov, but his general play and technique isn't great. I think people were excited because that could always improve with him being so young and inexperienced, and he was still scoring regularly (up to halfway through the season).

 

I thought his finish against Oldham was good, it's just a shame for him it was only Oldham as people will automatically say "he's found his level" etc

I mean, even Downing scored in that game!

 

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's the most slated player in the Prem at the minute, maybe he'll come good.

 

He needs to up his goal scoring though.

 

If you compare him to Defoe, who whilst obviously a different type of player, is still a striker, his record is poor:

 

 

First spell at Spurs:

139 apps 93 goals

Current spell:

78 apps 32 goals

 

Bearing in mind he is predominantly a sub these days, those are pretty good figures in my book.

 

Even when he's played for teams that aren't as good and therefore wont create as many chances, his record is good:

 

Bournemouth:

29 apps 28 goals (level of oppo is relevant)

 

West Ham:

93 apps 56 goals

 

Portsmouth:

31 apps 15 goals.

 

And Defoe gets stick!

 

Not being funny, but that says more about your fans than anything else. Carroll gets stick because of the huge spotlight on him after the move and the huge target he paints on his own back with his antics off the pitch. People will forget average performances from you if you're anonymous (see Henderson), and they'll forgive indiscretions if you're performing on the pitch (see Suarez).

 

Defoe has a decent record, but he's not consistent. He'll not score for 5 games, then get a haul, on paper he's got 5 in 5 which is a phenomenal record, but in actual fact he's just put 5 past a shit Wigan side that you would have beaten anyway. Add to that he's never been a grafting type of player who contributes more than just goals to a side and I can see why he's dropped. At least Bellamy works his bollocks off all game and provides a stack of assists.

 

Carroll could be a top quality centre forward if he moves out of the spotlight and grows naturally into his game and if he grows up off the pitch. Put it this way, if he'd recieved the same service from Liverpool all season as he did from Gerrard against us, he'd not be under the pressure he is.

 

It's like Torres at Chelsea, the guy is clearly a good striker, but for whatever reason he's not scoring. I think initially it was a system issue, then confidence. Now that Mata is becoming more integral and Torres' confidence is growing, you'll see goals flowing.

 

Actually I was talking about football fans in general giving Defoe stick/not rating him, not really Spurs fans.

 

In the main, I'd say he's very popular at The Lane, I personally love him.

 

You mention the 5 goals versus Wigan, but Carroll is also playing teams like Wigan, and still not scoring.

 

In any case, 5 goals against any Prem oppo is good work.

[hostile_statue 0]

He came on during the second half of the season in the CCC and started scoring regularly. His performances up to then had been largely shite, although he was just breaking through. Then he scored 11 in the PL, but it wasn't like Ba who is capable of scoring against the top teams and is genuinely one of the better finishers in the PL. He scored a hattrick against an utterly dismal Villa team after MON left, he scored a tap in against Chelsea after a defensive fuck-up, then he scored some good headers. He is a terrific header of the ball. He occasionally smashes a good shot in, like he did against Liverpool when all their defenders backed off and off until he shot, and Dalglish decided he was the new Stoichkov, but his general play and technique isn't great. I think people were excited because that could always improve with him being so young and inexperienced, and he was still scoring regularly (up to halfway through the season).

 

I thought his finish against Oldham was good, it's just a shame for him it was only Oldham as people will automatically say "he's found his level" etc

I mean, even Downing scored in that game!

 

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's the most slated player in the Prem at the minute, maybe he'll come good.

 

He needs to up his goal scoring though.

 

If you compare him to Defoe, who whilst obviously a different type of player, is still a striker, his record is poor:

 

 

First spell at Spurs:

139 apps 93 goals

Current spell:

78 apps 32 goals

 

Bearing in mind he is predominantly a sub these days, those are pretty good figures in my book.

 

Even when he's played for teams that aren't as good and therefore wont create as many chances, his record is good:

 

Bournemouth:

29 apps 28 goals (level of oppo is relevant)

 

West Ham:

93 apps 56 goals

 

Portsmouth:

31 apps 15 goals.

 

And Defoe gets stick!

 

Not being funny, but that says more about your fans than anything else. Carroll gets stick because of the huge spotlight on him after the move and the huge target he paints on his own back with his antics off the pitch. People will forget average performances from you if you're anonymous (see Henderson), and they'll forgive indiscretions if you're performing on the pitch (see Suarez).

 

Defoe has a decent record, but he's not consistent. He'll not score for 5 games, then get a haul, on paper he's got 5 in 5 which is a phenomenal record, but in actual fact he's just put 5 past a shit Wigan side that you would have beaten anyway. Add to that he's never been a grafting type of player who contributes more than just goals to a side and I can see why he's dropped. At least Bellamy works his bollocks off all game and provides a stack of assists.

 

Carroll could be a top quality centre forward if he moves out of the spotlight and grows naturally into his game and if he grows up off the pitch. Put it this way, if he'd recieved the same service from Liverpool all season as he did from Gerrard against us, he'd not be under the pressure he is.

 

It's like Torres at Chelsea, the guy is clearly a good striker, but for whatever reason he's not scoring. I think initially it was a system issue, then confidence. Now that Mata is becoming more integral and Torres' confidence is growing, you'll see goals flowing.

 

I don't think so. He hasn't been any good since those operations he had before the World Cup.

[The Fish 10849]

Got to hope Obertan pulls some magic out of his moonhead when next we meet them then.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I think this shows the desire for Geordie players, which is perfectly understandable.

 

Think of it like this, with the current squad we're thinking stuff like:

 

"Fucking hell, Tiote has just marked Rooney out of the game."

"Cabaye has just bossed the midfield and scored a world class free-kick against the current PL champions."

"Demba Ba is scoring with his left, his right, his head, and every part of his body against every team in the league and at international level."

 

With Carroll it was more like this:

 

"Ooh Andy Carroll has scored a header after managing to stay out of jail, WHAYY AYYEEEEE"

 

Different expectations for different players.

[ChezGiven 0]

Carroll ran around like a lunatic for us, he was good defending in the box, scrapped for balls out of defence, held the ball up well and was often able to bring midfield into play. He had a an allroudness to his play which belied his average technique because he was a passionate player. That's what Newcastle fans notice most when watching him for the wp's.

[hostile_statue 0]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

 

No, in fact his record as a youngster was comparable to now.

 

 

His figures as a youngster are those at Bournemouth and West Ham.

 

Great stats.

 

In 05-06 Defoe, who was 23-24 at the time, scored 9 goals in 36 games. The next season he scored 10 in 34 games. And those were good seasons for him. Caroll scored 11 in 19 games last season, 17 in 39 games the season before that.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Carroll ran around like a lunatic for us, he was good defending in the box, scrapped for balls out of defence, held the ball up well and was often able to bring midfield into play. He had a an allroudness to his play which belied his average technique because he was a passionate player. That's what Newcastle fans notice most when watching him for the wp's.

 

Good observation. Be interesting to see whether he would perform as well in this new team with the likes of Cabaye instead of his mate Kev. Though I'd much rather see us get a focused professional than a pissed-up belligerent lout.

[The Fish 10849]

Actually I was talking about football fans in general giving Defoe stick/not rating him, not really Spurs fans.

 

In the main, I'd say he's very popular at The Lane, I personally love him.

 

You mention the 5 goals versus Wigan, but Carroll is also playing teams like Wigan, and still not scoring.

 

In any case, 5 goals against any Prem oppo is good work.

 

I think most knowledgable fans know Defoe is a good finisher, and on his day can win a game with one swipe of his boot. They also know that he doesn't do much else. I mentioned the five goals to highlight his inconsistency, not how well he performs against weaker opposition. I raised it because a great striker scores week in week out (see van Persie), not just a brace here and a hat-trick a month later with fuck all in between.

 

Shearer got 5 by the way. But then Shearer is the best striker to have graced the Premier League

[hostile_statue 0]

Defoe is inconsistency personified.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Imogen Thomas sucked him off in a car once. She likes footballers.

[The Fish 10849]

Carroll ran around like a lunatic for us, he was good defending in the box, scrapped for balls out of defence, held the ball up well and was often able to bring midfield into play. He had a an allroudness to his play which belied his average technique because he was a passionate player. That's what Newcastle fans notice most when watching him for the wp's.

 

Good observation. Be interesting to see whether he would perform as well in this new team with the likes of Cabaye instead of his mate Kev. Though I'd much rather see us get a focused professional than a pissed-up belligerent lout.

 

Absolutely, my position has never been "Get him back he's top class" more that I wish he'd stayed because he [icould[/i] have become quality and he's a local lad and I obviously want a local lad to do well. Put it this way, there'd have been half the furore if it had been Ranger banging in the goals then departing for pastures scummier.

 

With the team as it is, I don't think we're set up to get the best from him as the service into the box hasn't been great, we'd need a new winger as well, or for Cabaye to be straying wide and delivering balls from deep, which would be a horrible waste of talent.

[Tottenham Dave 0]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

 

No, in fact his record as a youngster was comparable to now.

 

 

His figures as a youngster are those at Bournemouth and West Ham.

 

Great stats.

 

In 05-06 Defoe, who was 23-24 at the time, scored 9 goals in 36 games. The next season he scored 10 in 34 games. And those were good seasons for him. Caroll scored 11 in 19 games last season, 17 in 39 games the season before that.

 

That was an exceptional season to pick as he didn't get much of a look in, in fact he nearly left us as he was getting 10-15 minutes at the end of each game as a sub. It's unfair to class those as full appearances.

 

As an overall total from 99-04 aged 17-22 he got 56 goals in 93 appearances for the Spammers.

 

When 18 years old, he had a season at Bournemouth and got 28 goals in 29 games.

[The Fish 10849]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

 

No, in fact his record as a youngster was comparable to now.

 

 

His figures as a youngster are those at Bournemouth and West Ham.

 

Great stats.

 

In 05-06 Defoe, who was 23-24 at the time, scored 9 goals in 36 games. The next season he scored 10 in 34 games. And those were good seasons for him. Caroll scored 11 in 19 games last season, 17 in 39 games the season before that.

 

That was an exceptional season to pick as he didn't get much of a look in, in fact he nearly left us as he was getting 10-15 minutes at the end of each game as a sub. It's unfair to class those as full appearances.

 

As an overall total from 99-04 aged 17-22 he got 56 goals in 93 appearances for the Spammers.

 

When 18 years old, he had a season at Bournemouth and got 28 goals in 29 games.

 

Found his level

[Tottenham Dave 0]

Defoe is inconsistency personified.

 

I don't agree, if there's one consistent thing about Defoe it's him scoring.

 

The argument that he won't score for 3 or 4 games then get a hat-trick is something that can be leveled at any striker there ever was.

 

Did Lineker actually score 'every other game'? - No, he scored 2 and 3 in a game every now and then, and the odd goal here and there.

[Tottenham Dave 0]

A bit unfair to compare Defoe, who's 29, with Carroll, who's 23. When Defoe was 23 his scoring ratio was no better than Carroll's last two seasons.

 

No, in fact his record as a youngster was comparable to now.

 

 

His figures as a youngster are those at Bournemouth and West Ham.

 

Great stats.

 

In 05-06 Defoe, who was 23-24 at the time, scored 9 goals in 36 games. The next season he scored 10 in 34 games. And those were good seasons for him. Caroll scored 11 in 19 games last season, 17 in 39 games the season before that.

 

That was an exceptional season to pick as he didn't get much of a look in, in fact he nearly left us as he was getting 10-15 minutes at the end of each game as a sub. It's unfair to class those as full appearances.

 

As an overall total from 99-04 aged 17-22 he got 56 goals in 93 appearances for the Spammers.

 

When 18 years old, he had a season at Bournemouth and got 28 goals in 29 games.

 

Found his level

 

A goal every game is not 'his level'.

[ChezGiven 0]

Carroll ran around like a lunatic for us, he was good defending in the box, scrapped for balls out of defence, held the ball up well and was often able to bring midfield into play. He had a an allroudness to his play which belied his average technique because he was a passionate player. That's what Newcastle fans notice most when watching him for the wp's.

 

Good observation. Be interesting to see whether he would perform as well in this new team with the likes of Cabaye instead of his mate Kev. Though I'd much rather see us get a focused professional than a pissed-up belligerent lout.

We played Man U with Shola and Ba so Carroll could take the place of Shola in that sort of match, in which case i cant see why his performance would be dependent on how well he understands Cabaye's game. I rate Ba above Carroll but i dont see many reasons why he couldnt replace Best or Shola in the same sort of role they play. Its all ridiculous conjecture anyway but removing finance from the picture then having him back would be good. I would however agree with those who point to the possible better things we could do with £10m with less risk.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Carroll ran around like a lunatic for us, he was good defending in the box, scrapped for balls out of defence, held the ball up well and was often able to bring midfield into play. He had a an allroudness to his play which belied his average technique because he was a passionate player. That's what Newcastle fans notice most when watching him for the wp's.

 

Good observation. Be interesting to see whether he would perform as well in this new team with the likes of Cabaye instead of his mate Kev. Though I'd much rather see us get a focused professional than a pissed-up belligerent lout.

We played Man U with Shola and Ba so Carroll could take the place of Shola in that sort of match, in which case i cant see why his performance would be dependent on how well he understands Cabaye's game. I rate Ba above Carroll but i dont see many reasons why he couldnt replace Best or Shola in the same sort of role they play. Its all ridiculous conjecture anyway but removing finance from the picture then having him back would be good. I would however agree with those who point to the possible better things we could do with £10m with less risk.

 

Have you ever seen the film Twins starring Danny Devito and Arnold Schwarzenegger? That is basically what Kevin Nolan and Carroll's relationship was like, except they are professional footballers. For evidence of their telepathy look to our first goal against Liverpool in the 3-1: Nolan knew exactly where Carroll would head the ball and smashed it into the net first-time. Kevin Nolan also guarded Andy Carroll against the dangers of the outside world and took him into his home at great risk to his own personal safety--soon after he moved in Nolan's Range Rover exploded and his relationship with his wife and children deteriorated as Andy Carroll used the spare bedroom for noisy sex sessions with various creatures from the Bigg Market.

Without that influence here anymore I think Carroll could soon lose his way, especially as he was prone to breaking teammate's jaws if they texted women who he used to punch about the head. Tactically you're quite right to point out Carroll could have played the Shola role in the formation against Man United, but it isn't often that we've explicitly targeted a defence with long balls like that this season. Carroll cannot adapt to the different tactics employed at Liverpool currently, so he might struggle to grasp Pardew's Kasparov-style schemes.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[ChezGiven 0]

Pardew's Kasparov-style schemes

[Tottenham Dave 0]

the Bigg Market.

 

 

Sorry to go off topic, but as an avid Viz reader for years I kept hearing about this place. Is it worth a visit?

 

Also, did any of you go to that Indian restaurant Abdul Latifs (?) that was always mentioned in it's holy pages?