Mike Ashley approval rating

[Guest alex]

When you boil it down he replaced a manager who was doing well with one who has performed even better. That deserves credit. Daft to argue otherwise imo.

 

If I bet my house on a flip of a coin and win then do I deserve credit for that? Or was it a risky act of gambling?

Just like the lottery ticket thing, it's a daft analogy tbh.

 

My point was that it was a needless gamble. Yes it paid off but it could have turned out disastrously. I'd rather that such unnecessary risks weren't taken with the club.

Yeah well, I certainly see where you're coming from. The Pardew appointment is one of the only things I do credit him with, even then it's grudging because of the treatment of Hughton. We are where we are now, largely, because of it though. I don't for one moment doubt Ashley's ability to fuck things up on whim though.

Edited November 29, 2011 by alex

[AgentAxeman 178]

[Happy Face 29]

it was more expensive than keeping Hughton

 

Not sure what you or Alex are basing Pardew being more expensive on, given his basic salary is £450,000.

 

Chris Hughton only had months left on a championship salary of £400k, so he was certainly going to exceed Pardew for the next 5 years if he was renewed.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Happy Face

[ewerk 30569]

You are kidding me ewerk? Llambias is a slimy cunt, a perfect appointment to absorb all the negative flack, he doesn't want a popular chairman, he wants a punchball. A shit appointment for us, clever for him. Keegan, went wrong but could have been a success if it handnt been for his mistake in appointing Wise. Shearer, didn't work out but was a popular choice. Hughton worked out well, Graham Carr has been a success, Carver, Stone and Beardsley have been good appointments and so has Pardew.

 

You don't need to see a carefully thought out strategy from day one to understand that appointments going better than they were anticipated does not equate to luck, it equates to good decision making.

 

I don't see how Llambias being a slimy cunt benefits Ashley at all. You think that was part of his reasoning in appointing him? If so then it's ridiculous. Ashley doesn't give a fuck about being disliked and the idea that he's using Llambias as a punchball holds has no credence.

 

Forgetting Wise, Keegan wasn't going to work out under the financial constraints that Ashley imposed on him.

 

The only two Ashley appointments that have worked out well were Hughton and Pardew. As I said, Hughton was almost the default option. Pardew was a crazy appointment that appears to come off for him. I've now idea who appointed Graham Carr but if it was Ashley/Llambias then I'll give them that one.

 

As much as Shepherd gets abuse for his managerial decisions, you could often see the rationale behind them. Maybe thinking things through and making balanced decisions is overrated. Fuck it, stick a pin into a list of names and see what happens. We'd have the same odds of success then as we did when Pardew was appointed.

[trophyshy 7083]

"Like" is irrelevant anyway, it doesn''t matter if you "like" someone or not, so long as the team is attempting to or actually being successful, and to date, it isn't.

 

Whatever a small flash in the pan run of results suggests.

 

I realise some people don't like Ashley, but plenty do

 

So then, plenty of people like Mike Ashley (they don't) and it's irrelevant if they do or not anyway.

 

Great stuff Leazes. I agree with you and will happily remind you that I do in four years time.

 

Incidentally, to employ one of your favourite argumentative techniques, when will this 'flash in the pan' be lengthy enough to be considered genuine progress? End of the year, end of next year or when everyone declares their undying agreement with you?

[Guest alex]

it was more expensive than keeping Hughton

 

Not sure what your or Alex are basing Pardew being more expensive on, given his basic salary is £450,000.

 

Chris Hughton only had months left on a championship salary of £400k, so he was certainly going to exceed Pardew for the next 5 years if he was renewed.

Well he had to keep paying Hughton as well as Pardew and there were still 6 months to run on the former's contract. Hughton wouldn't have been offered any more money than Pardew was imo and despite doing a good job here he wouldn't have exactly walked into a top PL post (as evidenced by his ending up at Birmingham).

[Happy Face 29]

He's reaping the benefits of his decision though. Whatever the rationale for it. Elsewhere in the thread you'll see I'm in total agreement that he deserves no credit for his rationale at that time, despite others trying to suggest he saw something in Pardew none of us could see, but when a risk is paying off you have to hold your hands up and recognise the achievement, despite expectation.

 

I'm not sure what the achievement is though, is it just recognition that he got lucky?

 

On the other hand he sacked a manager who had stabilised the club and was doing a great job, his decision could have just as easily seen us go into meltdown and end up relegated. As his decisions had done two years previously.

 

I'll recognise that he's a risk-taker but I won't give him any credit for it.

 

I just think it's fair. If you slate every decision irrespective of outcome then you're just Leazes

 

It's all about the reasoning and rationale behind such decisions and with the Pardew scenario that reasoning was flawed and simply more evidence that he has not learned his lesson at all.

 

Yeah, like I said, i think it's wrong to credit him with vision no-one else had in hindsight.

 

But even if I have a mate who marries a slag and gets divorced, then he marries another slag and EVERYONE's saying she's a whore, i don't keep reminding him she's a whore for the reast of their life together, even while she's being a doting wife and parent who's cut out the drink and left players spouses alone.

[Barney 0]

it was more expensive than keeping Hughton

 

Not sure what you or Alex are basing Pardew being more expensive on, given his basic salary is £450,000.

 

Chris Hughton only had months left on a championship salary of £400k, so he was certainly going to exceed Pardew for the next 5 years if he was renewed.

 

Was he not the lowest paid PL manager on £250k?

[ewerk 30569]

Yeah, like I said, i think it's wrong to credit him with vision no-one else had in hindsight.

 

But even if I have a mate who marries a slag and gets divorced, then he marries another slag and EVERYONE's saying she's a whore, i don't keep reminding him she's a whore for the reast of their life together, even while she's being a doting wife and parent who's cut out the drink and left players spouses alone.

 

And Alex says that my analogies are bad.

 

Yes, things are going well and there are a lot of people at the club who deserve credit for that. I just don't think that Ashley is one of them.

[Guest alex]

Yeah, like I said, i think it's wrong to credit him with vision no-one else had in hindsight.

 

But even if I have a mate who marries a slag and gets divorced, then he marries another slag and EVERYONE's saying she's a whore, i don't keep reminding him she's a whore for the reast of their life together, even while she's being a doting wife and parent who's cut out the drink and left players spouses alone.

 

And Alex says that my analogies are bad.

 

Yes, things are going well and there are a lot of people at the club who deserve credit for that. I just don't think that Ashley is one of them.

They are, it doesn't mean his are any better

[Happy Face 29]

it was more expensive than keeping Hughton

 

Not sure what you or Alex are basing Pardew being more expensive on, given his basic salary is £450,000.

 

Chris Hughton only had months left on a championship salary of £400k, so he was certainly going to exceed Pardew for the next 5 years if he was renewed.

 

Was he not the lowest paid PL manager on £250k?

 

I'm going off this...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/dec/06/chris-hughton-newcastle-united-manager

[Guest alex]

Well if he was on £400k it was more expensive to sack him and bring in a replacement, not less

[Barney 0]

Fair enough HF, maybe that's what Holloway was earning and I was remembering it from an old article where he was the lowest or 2nd lowest paid PL manager.

[ChezGiven 0]

You are kidding me ewerk? Llambias is a slimy cunt, a perfect appointment to absorb all the negative flack, he doesn't want a popular chairman, he wants a punchball. A shit appointment for us, clever for him. Keegan, went wrong but could have been a success if it handnt been for his mistake in appointing Wise. Shearer, didn't work out but was a popular choice. Hughton worked out well, Graham Carr has been a success, Carver, Stone and Beardsley have been good appointments and so has Pardew.

 

You don't need to see a carefully thought out strategy from day one to understand that appointments going better than they were anticipated does not equate to luck, it equates to good decision making.

 

I don't see how Llambias being a slimy cunt benefits Ashley at all. You think that was part of his reasoning in appointing him? If so then it's ridiculous. Ashley doesn't give a fuck about being disliked and the idea that he's using Llambias as a punchball holds has no credence.

 

Forgetting Wise, Keegan wasn't going to work out under the financial constraints that Ashley imposed on him.

 

The only two Ashley appointments that have worked out well were Hughton and Pardew. As I said, Hughton was almost the default option. Pardew was a crazy appointment that appears to come off for him. I've now idea who appointed Graham Carr but if it was Ashley/Llambias then I'll give them that one.

 

As much as Shepherd gets abuse for his managerial decisions, you could often see the rationale behind them. Maybe thinking things through and making balanced decisions is overrated. Fuck it, stick a pin into a list of names and see what happens. We'd have the same odds of success then as we did when Pardew was appointed.

 

I have to say, your thinking is unsurprisingly all over the place here and it shows a lack of rigour in how you are addressing this issue. Keegan's appointment was a mistake in retrospect, with the benefit of hindsight. That does not mean it was a poor decision. In fact, with Redknapp turning it down, the decision you are evaluating was Keegan versus someone else, who we dont know about. The rationale at the time was exactly like a Shepherd appointment (cant believe you wrote that its so obviously wrong). Allardyce was boring, uninspired and played shit football, Keegan (like Souness etc) was the anti-thesis so the previous manager. When you are evaluating a decision you look at the situation before the fact.

 

The Llambias example is to show you that not all appointments are made for our benefit, Ashley has a card up his sleeve, sack the chairman, its a political thing and arguably a clever appointment from his perspective. If Llambias has to run all major decisions by Ashley then all you need in place is someone capable of adminstrating a small / medium business (check) who you can keep in line (check) who is expendable (who know eh?).

 

But thats not important, whats important is Pardew and his staff (Carver, Stone, Beardsley and Donnachie - thats 5 appointments), Charnley, Carr and Del boy acting as his mouthpiece in that circle. Its a good set up and the proof of that is everywhere in front of you.

 

You've not really helped me understand why Ashley would spend months searching for a top senior manager in SD, paying upwards of 60% of that manager's salary (as much if not more than the figures for Hughton and Pardew) to the search agency's services and employing massive amounts of internal resources (because thats exactly how it works everywhere in business) but not in NUFC. His mistakes in the past make this effort more likley and the knowledge gleaned from golfmag about Pardew's appointment proves it.

[Happy Face 29]

Well if he was on £400k it was more expensive to sack him and bring in a replacement, not less

 

Keep saying "over 5 years". In the short term it was an additional cost, of course, as much as £200k maybe, but it was done to save money long term.

 

This is also why I don't think Pardew would be sacked irrespective of performance.

 

His basic pay for the whole 5 year contract is £2.25m. Allardyce and Keegan were on more than that every year.

 

Hughton would (in my opinion) have at least been looking for parity with other managers of relegation bait teams who are generally on £1m a year or more. So Ashley saves £2.75m.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Happy Face

[toonotl 2977]

When you boil it down he replaced a manager who was doing well with one who has performed even better. That deserves credit. Daft to argue otherwise imo.

 

If I bet my house on a flip of a coin and win then do I deserve credit for that? Or was it a risky act of gambling?

 

If you flip with a coin that is weighted to come up heads 51% of the time and you call heads its a good decision everytime. Regardless of the outcome. Ignoring risk/reward issues obviously. No one is saying luck isn't involved. Just that luck is not the prime determinant of the outcome.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

"Keegan, went wrong but could have been a success if it handnt been for his mistake in appointing Wise."

 

Would have also helped if he hadn't lied to and misled Keegan and the fans.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[toonotl 2977]

"Like" is irrelevant anyway, it doesn''t matter if you "like" someone or not, so long as the team is attempting to or actually being successful, and to date, it isn't.

 

Whatever a small flash in the pan run of results suggests.

 

I realise some people don't like Ashley, but plenty do

 

So then, plenty of people like Mike Ashley (they don't) and it's irrelevant if they do or not anyway.

 

Great stuff Leazes. I agree with you and will happily remind you that I do in four years time.

 

Incidentally, to employ one of your favourite argumentative techniques, when will this 'flash in the pan' be lengthy enough to be considered genuine progress? End of the year, end of next year or when everyone declares their undying agreement with you?

 

Make idiotic statement to support argument. Be quantitatively proven wrong. Declare said statement irrelevent. Move the goal posts. Repeat.

[Guest alex]

Well if he was on £400k it was more expensive to sack him and bring in a replacement, not less

 

Keep saying "over 5 years". In the short term it was an additional cost, of course, but it was done to save money long term.

 

This is also why I don't think Pardew would be sacked irrespective of performance.

 

His basic pay for the whole 5 year contract is £2.25m. Allardyce and Keegan were on more than that every year.

 

Hughton would (in my opinion) have at least been looking for parity with other managers of relegation bait teams who are generally on £1m a year or more. So Ashley saves £2.75m.

Sort of agree but I don't see how Hughton would've got more, Ashley simply wouldn't have offered it. It's moot though because Hughton was never in his long-term plans. If it was just about money the obvious option would have been to keep Hughton until his contract expired, say ta very much, then appoint Pardew. That would've been cheaper, no? Also, he didn't have to offer anyone a 5 and 1/2 year deal. It's almost unheard of for a manager's contract.

[toonotl 2977]

Doesn't Pardew have a clause where he can be sacked without compensation? I swear I remember something along those lines when he signed on. I remember thinking the 5 year contract he was given is basically useless because of the non-compensation clause. Or am I imagining things?

[Barney 0]

Keegan was never meant as a success. He was wanted by 'the Arabs'.

[toonotl 2977]

Pardew no compensation clause

 

3rd paragraph.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Time machine back to November 2010.....

 

We are going to sack Hughton, Sell Carrol, Nolan, Barton and Enrique, disperse the singing section and re-name St James The Sports Direct Arena yet a year from now we will be 4th in the league ahead of Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea and sold our for the next game.....

 

Only at Newcastle.

[Happy Face 29]

Well if he was on £400k it was more expensive to sack him and bring in a replacement, not less

 

Keep saying "over 5 years". In the short term it was an additional cost, of course, but it was done to save money long term.

 

This is also why I don't think Pardew would be sacked irrespective of performance.

 

His basic pay for the whole 5 year contract is £2.25m. Allardyce and Keegan were on more than that every year.

 

Hughton would (in my opinion) have at least been looking for parity with other managers of relegation bait teams who are generally on £1m a year or more. So Ashley saves £2.75m.

Sort of agree but I don't see how Hughton would've got more, Ashley simply wouldn't have offered it. It's moot though because Hughton was never in his long-term plans. If it was just about money the obvious option would have been to keep Hughton until his contract expired, say ta very much, then appoint Pardew. That would've been cheaper, no? Also, he didn't have to offer anyone a 5 and 1/2 year deal. It's almost unheard of for a manager's contract.

 

Maybe I'm being unfair saying it's always the cheapest option. Best value is probably a better choice of words.

 

Could be that Pardew took another opportunity in those 6 months if hughton was left in place and Ashley wanted to avoid that, or that it was better to for the club to move on sooner rather than later given a managerial change was inevitable by the end of the season.

 

There was always the chance that Hughton could move us further up the table and he'd be harder to shift with the "more experienced manager" cover story. Pardew was in the wings for ages, but Ashley had to wait out a few good results to justify the sacking as it was.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Happy Face

[toonotl 2977]

Time machine back to November 2010.....

 

We are going to sack Hughton, Sell Carrol, Nolan, Barton and Enrique, disperse the singing section and re-name St James The Sports Direct Arena yet a year from now we will be 4th in the league ahead of Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea and sold our for the next game.....

 

Only at Newcastle.

 

90% of that would have been perfectly believable too.