Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Fans are always going to be reactive and fickle. A bit like posters on message boards who take extended sabbaticals when they appear to be in the wrong. <Insert your choice of smiley here> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Incorrect alex, that mis-management of the club, not financial mis-management which is when you spend more than you earn. It deserves a laugh because its ironic not that i need to justify a smiley. Why is it ironic that a bloke comes in and rides roughshod over the club, pissing on fans, the stadium, tradition & Premier League status so people stop buying his product? I don't get that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 at the moment they are in the top half. How long do you think this will last, while selling our best players and withholding the money from the manager to build the best side possible ? This is football related, for a moment Chez ? We've had one good half season so far (a bit more than half but you take my point). Improvements have been made of course and it's going swimmingly at the minute but I definitely agree that it's a bit early to be counting any chickens as far as the long-term good of the team on the pitch is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 at the moment they are in the top half. How long do you think this will last, while selling our best players and withholding the money from the manager to build the best side possible ? This is football related, for a moment Chez ? Its a good question, i've always been fair to your point of view as i think that given the behaviour of the owner in the past you can expect the worse (even if some of us hope for the best). Your view is based on how you expect them to behave and a lack of faith in getting replacements in of a decent quality over time. The likes of Cabaye, Ba etc were lucky, not because they were pot shots in the dark of the transfer market but because many people prefer not to ascribe any credit to the current owners because of the past. To be clear, if they do sell our best players and replace them with inferior ones then of course you will be correct (or should be anyway) as we will fall away. However, its difficult because if we do sell players in the summer, am sure everyone will say that this is proof of the point of view, just like they did last summer. And that does get a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 People weren't deciding to boycoutt without provocation. It's a ridiculous notion that people should lap up whatever Ashley chooses to do with the club and keep throwing their money into something they don't condone. Or that Ashley should be oblivious to the financial implications of those unpopular off field choices. That seems very daft. It makes me laugh to see people state matter of factly what a good job Ashley has done with our finances in the face of lost income from relegation, reduced tv money, a slump in shirt sales, less advertising, less corporate, less ticket sales etc. as if all those reductions were beyond his control, rather than a direct result of his actions. People can do what they like with their money but ultimately the club will only be as big as the fans make it, if they don't want to put the cash in then fair enough but it seems daft to complain about it if you were condoning the boycoutt in the first place. His biggest mistake was putting the club on the market after the protests and basically leaving the club to get on with it which for me caused our relegation, since taking the club off the market and attempting to turn it around I don't think there's much to fault tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 People can do what they like with their money but ultimately the club will only be as big as the fans make it, if they don't want to put the cash in then fair enough but it seems daft to complain about it if you were condoning the boycoutt in the first place. His biggest mistake was putting the club on the market after the protests and basically leaving the club to get on with it which for me caused our relegation, since taking the club off the market and attempting to turn it around I don't think there's much to fault tbh. There is no market, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Incorrect alex, that mis-management of the club, not financial mis-management which is when you spend more than you earn. It deserves a laugh because its ironic not that i need to justify a smiley. Why is it ironic that a bloke comes in and rides roughshod over the club, pissing on fans, the stadium, tradition & Premier League status so people stop buying his product? I don't get that at all. Exactly, every post you've made today has been 100% spot on. One of your better posting days. How financial mismanagement, has no link to general mismanagement in the case of a football club is anyones guess. Edited February 21, 2012 by McFaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 at the moment they are in the top half. How long do you think this will last, while selling our best players and withholding the money from the manager to build the best side possible ? This is football related, for a moment Chez ? Its a good question, i've always been fair to your point of view as i think that given the behaviour of the owner in the past you can expect the worse (even if some of us hope for the best). Your view is based on how you expect them to behave and a lack of faith in getting replacements in of a decent quality over time. The likes of Cabaye, Ba etc were lucky, not because they were pot shots in the dark of the transfer market but because many people prefer not to ascribe any credit to the current owners because of the past. To be clear, if they do sell our best players and replace them with inferior ones then of course you will be correct (or should be anyway) as we will fall away. However, its difficult because if we do sell players in the summer, am sure everyone will say that this is proof of the point of view, just like they did last summer. And that does get a Ba was canny lucky imo. Since his release clause was a massive factor in why the club pursued him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 People weren't deciding to boycoutt without provocation. It's a ridiculous notion that people should lap up whatever Ashley chooses to do with the club and keep throwing their money into something they don't condone. Or that Ashley should be oblivious to the financial implications of those unpopular off field choices. That seems very daft. It makes me laugh to see people state matter of factly what a good job Ashley has done with our finances in the face of lost income from relegation, reduced tv money, a slump in shirt sales, less advertising, less corporate, less ticket sales etc. as if all those reductions were beyond his control, rather than a direct result of his actions. People can do what they like with their money but ultimately the club will only be as big as the fans make it, if they don't want to put the cash in then fair enough but it seems daft to complain about it if you were condoning the boycoutt in the first place. His biggest mistake was putting the club on the market after the protests and basically leaving the club to get on with it which for me caused our relegation, since taking the club off the market and attempting to turn it around I don't think there's much to fault tbh. The boycoutt was the result of chronic mismanagement and poor decision making. The whole negative derives from Ashley's inability to manage the club, therefore the financial implications of this are purely the result of his incompetence. You can't have a go at the fans who have been alienated being the root cause of economic underachievement. It's our duty to invest in the club while we're being laughed at and alienated is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 cognitive dissonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 at the moment they are in the top half. How long do you think this will last, while selling our best players and withholding the money from the manager to build the best side possible ? This is football related, for a moment Chez ? Its a good question, i've always been fair to your point of view as i think that given the behaviour of the owner in the past you can expect the worse (even if some of us hope for the best). Your view is based on how you expect them to behave and a lack of faith in getting replacements in of a decent quality over time. The likes of Cabaye, Ba etc were lucky, not because they were pot shots in the dark of the transfer market but because many people prefer not to ascribe any credit to the current owners because of the past. To be clear, if they do sell our best players and replace them with inferior ones then of course you will be correct (or should be anyway) as we will fall away. However, its difficult because if we do sell players in the summer, am sure everyone will say that this is proof of the point of view, just like they did last summer. And that does get a Ba was canny lucky imo. Since his release clause was a massive factor in why the club pursued him. Cabaye had a release clause also iirc. Good piece of business snapping him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Incorrect alex, that mis-management of the club, not financial mis-management which is when you spend more than you earn. It deserves a laugh because its ironic not that i need to justify a smiley. Why is it ironic that a bloke comes in and rides roughshod over the club, pissing on fans, the stadium, tradition & Premier League status so people stop buying his product? I don't get that at all. Exactly, every post you've made today has been 100% spot on. One of your better posting days. How financial mismanagement, has no link to general mismanagement in the case of a football club is anyones guess. Read my posts, i do my best to impart my knowledge but if you dont pay attention, what can i do. We make the same money we did in 08/09 but now we arent making a loss and we are 6th not 14th. Thats the 3rd time i've said it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 since taking the club off the market and attempting to turn it around I don't think there's much to fault tbh. There's been loads of negative press since then. Renaming the stadium, telling people how Narsty they can be, "cashing in" on our top scorer, moving swathes of fans etc. Whatever your view of those choices and their necessity, they all pissed off supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Read my posts, i do my best to impart my knowledge but if you dont pay attention, what can i do. We make the same money we did in 08/09 but now we arent making a loss and we are 6th not 14th. Thats the 3rd time i've said it too. We make the same money because the TV revenue went up massively because of massively increased SKY and worldwide TV deals, so the comparison is invalid. Wigan's turnover last season reached the levels of Sunderland in 2009, PURELY because of the TV contract. Everything else went down. It's not difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44498 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Which is why i asked what the £88m you were quoting was based on? If its 'so called accountants' who know nowt about football and are the sort of mugs that backed Souness, you'd have to question why they only give us an upswing of £1.6m across all other revenue lines from matchday, corporate etc from the relegation season to the first season back in the prem. The 88m has fuck all to do with me, Professor Keynes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i do my best to impart my knowledge but if you dont pay attention, what can i do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Cabaye had a release clause also iirc. Good piece of business snapping him up. As was Ba, which is fair enough. Cabaye was obviously the result of a good scouting network which we now have in place etc. which is something for which the owner actually should be commended. Ba on the other hand was a PL-proven player available on a free. Were it not for that I doubt we'd have signed him, i.e. it was the major factor in our pursuit of him. I suppose you could argue that wasn't luck but I think most people would probably agree we got a bit fortunate getting a player like him due to circumstances at West Ham etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I think there's two sides to the mismanagement - in the non-football world he's obviously a "genius" and a lot of his methods are sort of working. However his ignorance of football - especially the emotional side has led to bad business decisions as well like not realising the link between results and sales. Maybe having someone high up who is a football man wasn't a bad idea - just not Wise. I mean that from a business pov not a football one of course - a David Dein type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Read my posts, i do my best to impart my knowledge but if you dont pay attention, what can i do. We make the same money we did in 08/09 but now we arent making a loss and we are 6th not 14th. Thats the 3rd time i've said it too. We make the same money because the TV revenue went up massively because of massively increased SKY and worldwide TV deals, so the comparison is invalid. Wigan's turnover last season reached the levels of Sunderland in 2009, PURELY because of the TV contract. Everything else went down. It's not difficult. Not sure what you're saying, we've been through this and i have made that very point. Financial management is about ensuring you dont spend more than you earn or if you, you have a sustainable way of paying it back. Management in general is about the direction of the club and maximising income streams is not financial management, its commercial and marketing activity. As you have highlighted too, all clubs are suffering decreases in commercial income and i have shown you the relative decreases for us and Everton. With all clubs suffering the same, you cant point to our performance and say its Ashley's fault. Its a trend across all clubs. Ours is worse because of relegation. You are right on one thing, its not difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 at the moment they are in the top half. How long do you think this will last, while selling our best players and withholding the money from the manager to build the best side possible ? This is football related, for a moment Chez ? With the foundations now in place I fully expect us to stay in the top 10 every year from now on, if we fall out of it then they will be rightly criticised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Relegation was Ashley's fault though, Chez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Read my posts, i do my best to impart my knowledge but if you dont pay attention, what can i do. We make the same money we did in 08/09 but now we arent making a loss and we are 6th not 14th. Thats the 3rd time i've said it too. We make the same money because the TV revenue went up massively because of massively increased SKY and worldwide TV deals, so the comparison is invalid. Wigan's turnover last season reached the levels of Sunderland in 2009, PURELY because of the TV contract. Everything else went down. It's not difficult. Not sure what you're saying, we've been through this and i have made that very point. Financial management is about ensuring you dont spend more than you earn or if you, you have a sustainable way of paying it back. Management in general is about the direction of the club and maximising income streams is not financial management, its commercial and marketing activity. As you have highlighted too, all clubs are suffering decreases in commercial income and i have shown you the relative decreases for us and Everton. With all clubs suffering the same, you cant point to our performance and say its Ashley's fault. Its a trend across all clubs. Ours is worse because of relegation. You are right on one thing, its not difficult. A monkey would know what I'm saying. I'm responding to your point that turnover in the relegation season is the same as it was last season. The reason for that is TV revenues for 10/11, were vastly superior to 08/09, every other aspect and facet of the club is generating less income by far. It's not a trend across all clubs neither, prove it is. Newcastle have stagnated financially more than any other club in English football in terms of income, it's not even something you can argue over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way." - Charles Bukowski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Chez has been a victim of cognitive dissonance imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Remember that the cost of relegation has also been put on tick to Ashley. NUFCs debt to him is double what the debt to Barclays was when he bought the club. Most relegated clubs would need to finance that debt, which would hit the accounts hard. We're lucky Ashley is willing to pay for his mistake. The predicted "break even" accounts which are due are on the back of Ashley heaving off any arrears into the backend, which he hopes to recover when it comes to selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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