Why are England so shite at football?

[sniffer 0]

OMG, Zamora, Rodwell, Jones, Baines and Terry are fucking crap!

 

And yet, they'd all walk into Newcastle's team.

[manc-mag 1]

ball retention is absolutely key in international football. for all the hype over our players, they don't do that well enough to cut it against the best sides. we haven't had a midfielder since paul scholes that was world class at keeping the ball. the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard that have dominated our midfield for the past decade all give away possession far too cheaply. the hollywood 50 yard raking pass looks awesome when it comes off but it shouldn't be a stock ball.

 

Wilshere looks like he could be the one. Although I totally agree with your point.

 

Aye but shirley you need a team that can keep the ball?....one player who doesnt give it away on his own isn't going to make a lot of odds really. The top teams know when to take a rest in football....to just keep the ball and make sure nothing is happening on the pitch that requires any great effort. English players are still clueless about how to pace themselves in a game after 20 years of the champions league and being on more money than they know what to do with they still score a lot more goals in the first half of their games than the second. In the last big 5 tournaments (not including last year in SA) England scored 22 of their 35 goals in the first half of their games. In the games where they were eliminated from these tournaments, they scored 7 out of their 8 goals in the first half.

 

That book is really good btw

 

Some interesting stats there actually, sounds like it's well worth a read just for a sideways look at things.

 

You're right like, it needs all your players comfortable in possession and that requires decent technique. Without doubt we have more emphasis on athleticism (pace/engine) than footballing ability. Theres dozens upon dozens of players in the Prem who could quite literally train without a ball as far as I'm concerned, they're athletes first and footballers second.

 

Also theres just the general ignorance of our press (as we're so obsessed with the Prem product). Theres various times where they've quite literally claimed Rooney to be the best player in the world. Oh ok then. Gerrard and Lampard have variously been touted quite seriously as the best midfielders in the world. Oh ok then.

[Guest CabayeAye]

I hope not. Only Baines would for me. Tiote, Colo, Saylor, Cabaye, Ba and Ben Arfa any day for me.

[Craig 6700]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

 

I was glad it happened in that game tbh as what must go down as one of the worst officiating blunders in WC history turned out to be completely inconsequential. We just looked like a bunch of dickheads the whole tournament.

 

Not unlike the Rugby lot in NZ a couple of weeks back either...

[sniffer 0]

I hope not. Only Baines would for me. Tiote, Colo, Saylor, Cabaye, Ba and Ben Arfa any day for me.

 

Rose tinted I think.

[Tooj 17]

ball retention is absolutely key in international football. for all the hype over our players, they don't do that well enough to cut it against the best sides. we haven't had a midfielder since paul scholes that was world class at keeping the ball. the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard that have dominated our midfield for the past decade all give away possession far too cheaply. the hollywood 50 yard raking pass looks awesome when it comes off but it shouldn't be a stock ball.

 

Wilshere looks like he could be the one. Although I totally agree with your point.

 

Aye but shirley you need a team that can keep the ball?....one player who doesnt give it away on his own isn't going to make a lot of odds really. The top teams know when to take a rest in football....to just keep the ball and make sure nothing is happening on the pitch that requires any great effort. English players are still clueless about how to pace themselves in a game after 20 years of the champions league and being on more money than they know what to do with they still score a lot more goals in the first half of their games than the second. In the last big 5 tournaments (not including last year in SA) England scored 22 of their 35 goals in the first half of their games. In the games where they were eliminated from these tournaments, they scored 7 out of their 8 goals in the first half.

 

That book is really good btw

 

Some interesting stats there actually, sounds like it's well worth a read just for a sideways look at things.

 

You're right like, it needs all your players comfortable in possession and that requires decent technique. Without doubt we have more emphasis on athleticism (pace/engine) than footballing ability. Theres dozens upon dozens of players in the Prem who could quite literally train without a ball as far as I'm concerned, they're athletes first and footballers second.

 

Also theres just the general ignorance of our press (as we're so obsessed with the Prem product). Theres various times where they've quite literally claimed Rooney to be the best player in the world. Oh ok then. Gerrard and Lampard have variously been touted quite seriously as the best midfielders in the world. Oh ok then.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1113507/The-best-players-world-Xavi--Ronaldo-crowned-king-football.html

 

This sums the press up for me.

[Park Life 71]

Crap goalkeepers for a while, crap tactics (and undisciplined players), crappish technique in half the side, lack of confidence in big moments (always a feeling summat will go wrong)...It's a long old list......Crap at penalties.

 

Too many foreign players in our big club sides stopping local talent developing.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Park Life

[Ayatollah Hermione 14069]

As long as players like Scott Parker are held up as the pinnacle for what young midfielders should aspire to in this country, we'll win fuck all for years.

[McFaul 35]

cause when they get together in a team the players don't gel well enough to play the style of football the public apparently demands, in stevies words

 

"I like seeing England playing fast attacking skillful pacey high tempo football, like Man Utd do sometimes. That's our strength."

 

problem is, its not! Man U have had carefully crafted squads with talent sourced from all over the world to fit the style of a manager who has been there for 25 years

 

england have a group of over indulged pricks who think theyre gods gift to everything who have regularly been shoehorned into teams that arent balanced

 

we saw gerrard and lampard stuffed together with people all over the place saying "but theyre both well good, they should be able to play together" forgetting themselves that thats never really been how football works

 

for the most part I blame the publics expectations and how that has translated into the pressure the media put on managers and players to perform or pick a certain side or play a certain way

 

after capello goes I really hope whoever comes in has the balls to totally relaunch the team, stop picking players who are unlikely to be playing for us in 2014 and try to get a team together that has time then to gel together over two years where they can all be playing at the next tournament

 

what has defined spains current team isn't just that theyre all utterly world class but that they share a philosophy that makes them a complete team, the germans do this too, there have been loads of times where we see them written off before a tournament because "they dont have the players" but they play as a team and they get their rewards while we "have the golden generation" and scrape through the group before getting dicked by that german side

Of course it's our strength our best eleven have it in them to play like that too, but the fact is we're just not as good as we were. Take 2004, I don't give a fuck what anyone says we were the best team at that tournament. Maybe not in names, but in how we played we were. We got beat 2-1 off France and missed a pen at 1-0 and missed a host of other chances, completely robbed. We hammered a good Swiss side, who the reigning European Champions couldn't beat, and we beat a Croatia side packed with class players. 8 goals in a group game. All the football then was pacey, fast, attractive it was fuckin excellent. Then we went to Germany and I think mancmag touched on it, you can't play 100 mph football in 90 degree heat. It was the hottest summer in the history of Germany, and we were fucked. Everyone said it was a disaster but the fact is we were a penalty shoot out against a definitely inferior Portugal, away from a real 50/50 chance of making the World Cup Final.

 

The fact is England are the 6th or 7th best team in the world and when you look at our population, amount of kids playing and everything else that goes with it, I think that's about right. Look at Brazil 190m people to wor 52m, they should be better than us, so should France, Italy, Germany, Russia, and USA as they have a bigger population of players to choose from. We think we're totally shite, but no one would choose to play us, we're totally shite because we have this unspoken belief that we should be challenging for the World Cup every time. It's a fine line in how to play though. Italy have been shite since Euro 2000. Yet they were world champions 5 years ago. I hate Italian football and Italy for lots of reasons, and that final against France they had 3 shots to France's 17, and I said I'd hate to win the World Cup like that, but that's what we've become. We could easily get to the semi's next summer there's no one to fear massively apart from Spain, but if I was Capello looking at our future, I wouldn't take Barry, Milner, Parker and if Gerrard's fit only ever play one of him and Lampard in the same team.

[Ayatollah Hermione 14069]

Rooney was immense at Euro 2004. Looked like Sven kept him on a leash for 6 hours before each match and just sent him out there.

[Guest CabayeAye]

I would love to see England play us in a serious match for a trophy (suspend disbelief). I reckon we'd walk it too. Watching England tonight, they beat a very poor Swedish team and don't really have much more to give with their 1st XI. Lots of 'star' players, but no cohesion. And if Zamora is getting a look in, England are fucked. I'd rather play Heskey up front than that clown!

Edited November 15, 2011 by CabayeAye

[McFaul 35]

aye that last paragraph sums it up. Our footballers are not technically good enough essentially.

Teams like Spain come along once every 30 years. We're not technically good enough gauged against them yes. As Zathras book points out 6th or 7th best in the world is probably about our level looking at demographics, so why is it such a tragedy and such a failure?

[McFaul 35]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

Well yous stood shoulder to shoulder in World War 2, like two twins of cuntishness which remains the same to this day. In fact Germany lesser so even. No wonder you felt that satisfaction.

[manc-mag 1]

aye that last paragraph sums it up. Our footballers are not technically good enough essentially.

Teams like Spain come along once every 30 years. We're not technically good enough gauged against them yes. As Zathras book points out 6th or 7th best in the world is probably about our level looking at demographics, so why is it such a tragedy and such a failure?

 

Tbh I think 1 World Cup success given our size is a respectable achievement. Obviously France and Spain hadn't won it at all til the last dozen years so we were doing 'better' than them historically. Now I spose we're at the bottom of the pile of the top European nations though.

 

You're right about Spain being a once in a generation team but they still had to turn that into a winning team. Theres only two trophies to play for and they've won them both and done it in quick order. That French team did similar. Gifted teams are one thing but tournament mentality is another issue altogether and I dont think we can claim that as a strong suit unfortunately.

[McFaul 35]

aye that last paragraph sums it up. Our footballers are not technically good enough essentially.

Teams like Spain come along once every 30 years. We're not technically good enough gauged against them yes. As Zathras book points out 6th or 7th best in the world is probably about our level looking at demographics, so why is it such a tragedy and such a failure?

 

Tbh I think 1 World Cup success given our size is a respectable achievement. Obviously France and Spain hadn't won it at all til the last dozen years so we were doing 'better' than them historically. Now I spose we're at the bottom of the pile of the top European nations though.

 

You're right about Spain being a once in a generation team but they still had to turn that into a winning team. Theres only two trophies to play for and they've won them both and done it in quick order. That French team did similar. Gifted teams are one thing but tournament mentality is another issue altogether and I dont think we can claim that as a strong suit unfortunately.

Aye I agree, and I agree that the English football season is a unique factor. The intensity in any other league is incomparable to the Premiership, and as we have no decent player prepared to play abroad and by May and June the players are fucked. Platini might be a wank but he's right when he says English players are lions in the autumn and lambs in the spring. It's the long season. There are lots of excuses, but they're only excuses against why we're not the best. We're not the best because only one team can be the best, and we're not it. Our players are generally the most spoilt, famous, gluttonous sportsmen in the world from any country, and it's the culture we have created for them. I get the impression that over the last 20 years we have lost something as a nation, in 1990 those kids would've pissed blood for England, Pearce, Butcher, Gazza, but these mugs now oh dear. There's not one personality amongst them, they're all Frank Lampard arrogant type cunts (and he's one of the better ones). Anyway though I'll say it again, are we shite compared to Spain? Yes. Are we shite compared to anyone else? No.

[Tom 14013]

I reckon had we competed in the first three world cups instead of being utter fannies and leaving FIFA over pay disputes to amateur players we may have had more than one win. However apart from that I think over the past 40 odd years or so there's been a multitude of reasons why England haven't done so well.

 

Pre-Premier league money teams other than England seemed to have more talent and better ideas & the football culture is different and always has been, I don't think as a nation - we are open to different ideas at all - you've probably even seen England just booting it up these past couple of days so it's technique & tactics but a lot of it is football education & general lifestyle.

 

You wouldn't catch an Italian player going on the lash or eating badly because everything is about the game to the extent of taking performance enhancing drugs.

 

After getting knocked out of 66 by one of the Koreas - I forget which - the Italians banned foreign players from Serie a - despite having only a few - the foreigners were allowed to return in 1980 but the Italians won the World Cup in '82. That 14 year break from foreigners clearly had an effect and if you look at all the major leagues in Europe you'll clearly see more foreigners in England & more English youth starved of opportunity. Despite being corrupt as fuck & probably having worse teams at times - they seem to have a knack we don't.

 

I doubt you would catch many Dutch purveyors of kick & rush because they have been ingrained in Total Football for so long - like the majority of the current great Barcelona team is made of Spaniards the greatest Dutch Club sides (arguably Ajax 70's/95) was made up of great Dutch players - 95 beat a great Milan side made up of mainly Italian's so the loyalty to home grown talent has long since been there all across europe. English players aren't going to get the chance to be great when the transfer market offers many ready made & probably cheaper, less twattish players.

 

Spain's new game has been a long time coming but again it's down to ideas and not fluke. In England players don't get pulled out of school, in Spain the School and the training ground are the same place - some clubs & the Spanish F.A literally run schools - which again concerns the Dutch & Cruyff's influence at Barcelona, playing tiki-taka/total football from a young age & playing nine a side rather than eleven a side up to a certain age - which is something Gareth Southgate is talking about introducing in England just now!

 

The Germans took note when they went through bad times & now the talent is coming through & if it's not all coming through - like the French - they merely adopt. Their football league is totally class & the best teams are made up of Germans, the tickets are cheap , they have safe standing & you can drink on the terrace - this filters into a belief & synergy most England fans would die for.

 

These countries seem to have more belief and drive, you look at a player - any German player or Spanish, Italian whatever & they look like they would do anything to succeed for their national team, you just don't get that impression with England.

 

From Wayne Rooney criticising the fans in front of the camera to Ashley Cole calling them all cunts to his mates it seems as if our players find comfort outside of it. Possibly in money or being pampered by their clubs but there's a certain drive missing.

 

As soon as a decent player comes along they're talked about and paid like they've already done it all & they almost become infallible - then the press smash the sandcastle they built by snooping around for imperfections to create an enemy, they villanise the team for failure & invade the personal lives of players who they secretly knew weren't good enough in the first place.

 

It doesn't matter who they are - the sainthood is built up swiftly & removed equally as swiftly as the entire country and it's press find someone to blame.

 

Half the time it's no wonder they players don't give a fuck, unless they achieve the almost impossible, they will be the enemy to the press post tournament and by that same token they'll be heroes for the clubs that pay them more than handsomely & after doing it in the domestic competitions the good press returns and it's like the England nightmare never happened till they can get caught in the dream of the next tournament the next time qualifiers pop up.

 

It's understandable why we are shite but out problem is that so many things make us shite & will continue to make us shite until there's a wholesale change in our games culture.

 

Additional to this - who actually likes the England team?

[Tooj 17]

Great post Tom.

[McFaul 35]

Aye excellent crack Tom. I wasn't aware Italians shut the door to foreigners between 66 and 80 I knew there were restrictions, but I didn't realise they operated a Nick Griffin type policy.

 

I think if we ever are to make that leap from 5th-10th to 1st or 2nd, two things need to happen, one is at least 6 or 7 Englishmen in every club team at the start of a game, and two a healthy amount of English players playing in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. We're being squeezed at both ends with regards to that, cos a lot of teams have one or two, and no one other than Joe Cole and Carson play abroad.

[Meenzer 15737]

I think if we ever are to make that leap from 5th-10th to 1st or 2nd, two things need to happen, one is at least 6 or 7 Englishmen in every club team at the start of a game, and two a healthy amount of English players playing in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. We're being squeezed at both ends with regards to that, cos a lot of teams have one or two, and no one other than Joe Cole and Carson play abroad.

 

Aye, and one of the problems we have is that we're an attractive destination for foreign players simply because we're English in the first place, whereas the same isn't true the other way round - the money sloshing round the Premier League aside, almost everyone speaks enough English to get by and at least start integrating as soon as they arrive at a club, whereas you can't imagine many English lads finding it anywhere near as easy abroad. Good on those who do struggle through the language barrier with interpreters and crash courses (and the clubs that are willing to make it happen), but you can see why staying in England and coining it for warming the bench at a big club or playing for a Bolton instead of a Bremen (say) would be more appealing to most.

[JawD 99]

I'm a firm believer in an English manager. No matter how good the manager is technically, unless he is English he can't bring out the true passion in the side. Thats the first thing I'd change.

[McFaul 35]

I would accept a foreigner if they've had years of experience within English football. We would definitely move up a bit with Wenger in charge for instance imo.

[ewerk 31225]

I'm a firm believer in an English manager. No matter how good the manager is technically, unless he is English he can't bring out the true passion in the side. Thats the first thing I'd change.

 

The same rules about players should apply to international managers imo.

[Guest alex]

Aye Tom, excellent post that. As for your last line, I didn't even bother watching last night. It's also depressing that the likes of Brooking are still banging on about the changes that need to be made. Er, what's your job again, Trev?

[McFaul 35]

You'd end up with Roy Keane

[ewerk 31225]

Nah, we'd be fine with David O'Leary.

 

Or we'd find an Irish granny for any decent manager.

Edited November 16, 2011 by ewerk