Why are England so shite at football?

[Dr Gloom 22182]

We have one of the richest leagues in the world, some of the best facilities and our players perform for top champions league clubs season after season.

 

And yet when they get together for international tournaments they consistently under achieve to the extent that most football fans I know have lost interest.

 

So why is the england team so rubbish? Over hyped players that aren't actually that good? Over paid players that dont care enough about the shirt? Fatigue after a long season? Lack of bottle? The weight of expectation combined with past failures? Crap coaching? Or a combination of the above? You tell me.

[Andrew 4872]

cause when they get together in a team the players don't gel well enough to play the style of football the public apparently demands, in stevies words

 

"I like seeing England playing fast attacking skillful pacey high tempo football, like Man Utd do sometimes. That's our strength."

 

problem is, its not! Man U have had carefully crafted squads with talent sourced from all over the world to fit the style of a manager who has been there for 25 years

 

england have a group of over indulged pricks who think theyre gods gift to everything who have regularly been shoehorned into teams that arent balanced

 

we saw gerrard and lampard stuffed together with people all over the place saying "but theyre both well good, they should be able to play together" forgetting themselves that thats never really been how football works

 

for the most part I blame the publics expectations and how that has translated into the pressure the media put on managers and players to perform or pick a certain side or play a certain way

 

after capello goes I really hope whoever comes in has the balls to totally relaunch the team, stop picking players who are unlikely to be playing for us in 2014 and try to get a team together that has time then to gel together over two years where they can all be playing at the next tournament

 

what has defined spains current team isn't just that theyre all utterly world class but that they share a philosophy that makes them a complete team, the germans do this too, there have been loads of times where we see them written off before a tournament because "they dont have the players" but they play as a team and they get their rewards while we "have the golden generation" and scrape through the group before getting dicked by that german side

[acrossthepond 878]

All of the factors you named except probably fatigue after a long season. Plenty of other top national sides have 20-team top flights with two domestic cup competitions, like ours. I think it's blatant that most of England's "stars" don't care about playing for England, not to mention that we've had, in quick succession, a mercenary, someone who was completely out of his depth, and another mercenary as England manager.

 

Where we go after Capello will be a big turning point. We need a manager who will focus on young players who have the drive to represent their country with pride. Hopefully he can get to them before the huge cheques, Benzes, and booze do.

[Monkeys Fist 43095]

Not enough Asians in the team.

[manc-mag 1]

Our game's all about pace. Sounds daft but it's typically a country where you have to keep running about to stay warm. You play at a slower speed in warmer countries and that's usually better for technique. There are exceptions (Holland) but there technique is massively trained into kids from a young age. And rightly so.

 

Our top players are all athletes that can run about for 90 minutes. That's all well and good but it's nee use if you haven't got the ball to begin with-and when you're playing technically superior sides, they just wont give you the ball to begin with.

 

There's a lot of hype surrounding the fact that because our league is the most entertaining to watch the English players playing for the top teams must be the best players in the world but it's a load of old crap at the end of the day. I'd take Ashley Cole and put him in any world 11. Apart from that nah.

[Zathras 266]

 

Link

 

A fascinating look at this very question, which concludes that England actually tend to perform at or above expected levels based on factors such as population, experience and money. They don't overperform the way, say, Spain or France have recently, but until the last world cup Spain were "perenniel underachievers" etc.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Zathras

[manc-mag 1]

 

Link

 

A fascinating look at this very question, which concludes that England actually tend to perform at or above expected levels based on factors such as population, experience and money. They don't overperform the way, say, Spain or France have recently, but until the last world cup Spain were "perenniel underachievers" etc.

 

'Losing' is another matter altogether. If the question is why do we lose, then given that we've won one World Cup that's probably a fair return given the size of our population for instance. Where it's hugely discrepant is where you've got Germany winning loads and loads more given a largely similar population. Same could be said of Italy but to a slightly lesser extent. Holland are (nearly) the absolute anomoly of World football with 3 World Cup final appearances in the modern game with a population of nowt. That pisses all over us tbf. Brazil are obviously the biggest 'winners', but then theyve got a population four or five times the size of us and the 'big' European teams.

 

As to why we're shite at football though, (ie as footballers) I would say it's to do with the pace of the game and the lack of importance attached to technical ability. That and too much emphasis being placed on results at a young age and dads giving it the blowtorch on the touchline whenever anyone takes more than two touches.

[manc-mag 1]

PS as long as: "GET RID!!" remains the most common refrain on English football pitches, none of that will change.

[Zathras 266]

'Losing' is another matter altogether. If the question is why do we lose, then given that we've won one World Cup that's probably a fair return given the size of our population for instance. Where it's hugely discrepant is where you've got Germany winning loads and loads more given a largely similar population. Same could be said of Italy but to a slightly lesser extent. Holland are (nearly) the absolute anomoly of World football with 3 World Cup final appearances in the modern game with a population of nowt. That pisses all over us tbf. Brazil are obviously the biggest 'winners', but then theyve got a population four or five times the size of us and the 'big' European teams.

 

As to why we're shite at football though, (ie as footballers) I would say it's to do with the pace of the game and the lack of importance attached to technical ability. That and too much emphasis being placed on results at a young age and dads giving it the blowtorch on the touchline whenever anyone takes more than two touches.

 

The title may say "lose" but the meat of the book is very much looking at the big picture of performance over time.

 

Sadly, even after all the numbers and data they put forth, Kuper and Szymanski are still very much optimistic about Capello heading into South Africa 2010, even acknowledging the small sample size they're dealing with....

 

 

Either way, it's definitely the best football book I've read in a long time. Absolutely fascinating in the same way that Moneyball was for baseball.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Zathras

[luckyluke 2]

aye that last paragraph sums it up. Our footballers are not technically good enough essentially.

[manc-mag 1]

I'm like a schoolboy wanting us to win going into a major tournament, and you always have to believe you've got a chance in any game, but when you look at it objectively theres no way our best 11 are better footballers than say 'the best' four or five countries in most World Cups. If those players dont happen to play in our Prem though our press will never have heard of them and call them all worse than shit.

Edited November 15, 2011 by manc-mag

[sniffer 0]

I have absolutely no idea, but I wonder what the percentage of foreign players is in other leagues? Let's not forget there are times when you can barely scrape an England team together in the premier league on some weekends.

[luckyluke 2]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

[Andrew 4872]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

 

would've been a different game if it had counted

[manc-mag 1]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

 

I was glad it happened in that game tbh as what must go down as one of the worst officiating blunders in WC history turned out to be completely inconsequential. We just looked like a bunch of dickheads the whole tournament.

[luckyluke 2]

It was just embarrassing tbh. The golden generation eh?

[manc-mag 1]

golden shower.

[Dr Gloom 22182]

ball retention is absolutely key in international football. for all the hype over our players, they don't do that well enough to cut it against the best sides. we haven't had a midfielder since paul scholes that was world class at keeping the ball. the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard that have dominated our midfield for the past decade all give away possession far too cheaply. the hollywood 50 yard raking pass looks awesome when it comes off but it shouldn't be a stock ball.

[PaddockLad 17685]

That book says that England more or less get the results you'd expect, allowing for the things (according to the authors) that make the difference in international football.....amount of international games played,geographical closeness to Western Europe, per capita income and population. See this post in relation also to the Asian thread.

 

 

From 1970 to 2007 they played 411, won 217, drew 120 and lost 74. If we treat a draw as half a win, this translates into a winning precentage of 67.4%. If we break this down into seven equal periods of just under four years each, England's winning percentage has never fallen below 62% or risen above 70%. In other words. their performance is very constant.

 

 

To improve this stat, the book suggests somehow making the Premier League less intense every single week (yeah, good luck!), an end to the almost complete exclusion of the middle classes from playing professional football which cuts the talent pool available by a huge amount ,and a closer relationship with the 5 "core" footballing countries of Western Europe i.e. France,Germany,The Netherlands, Italy and Spain (count those World Cups and European Championshipsin the last 30 years...) The countries at the "edge" of Europe i.e. us Brits, the Scandies,The Balkan States, Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics have won one title between them in that time; Greece won the Euros in 2004.

[Tooj 17]

ball retention is absolutely key in international football. for all the hype over our players, they don't do that well enough to cut it against the best sides. we haven't had a midfielder since paul scholes that was world class at keeping the ball. the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard that have dominated our midfield for the past decade all give away possession far too cheaply. the hollywood 50 yard raking pass looks awesome when it comes off but it shouldn't be a stock ball.

 

Wilshere looks like he could be the one. Although I totally agree with your point.

[Guest CabayeAye]

OMG, Zamora, Rodwell, Jones, Baines and Terry are fucking crap!

[sniffer 0]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

 

I was glad it happened in that game tbh as what must go down as one of the worst officiating blunders in WC history turned out to be completely inconsequential. We just looked like a bunch of dickheads the whole tournament.

 

Hardly inconsequential as it could've completely changed the course of the game.

[manc-mag 1]

I found there was something almost grimly satisfying about Germany smashing us at the last world cup. We had been abysmal the whole tournament and any other result would have been a travesty of justice.. Spoke volumes how relatively little fuss was made over Lampard's "goal" crossing the line compared to decisions that have gone against England in the past.

 

I was glad it happened in that game tbh as what must go down as one of the worst officiating blunders in WC history turned out to be completely inconsequential. We just looked like a bunch of dickheads the whole tournament.

 

Hardly inconsequential as it could've completely changed the course of the game.

 

Could have but then I s'pose anything's possible. We were horrific. The point is I'm glad it happened then rather than in a game where we actually deserved summat and ended up with nowt.

[PaddockLad 17685]

ball retention is absolutely key in international football. for all the hype over our players, they don't do that well enough to cut it against the best sides. we haven't had a midfielder since paul scholes that was world class at keeping the ball. the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard that have dominated our midfield for the past decade all give away possession far too cheaply. the hollywood 50 yard raking pass looks awesome when it comes off but it shouldn't be a stock ball.

 

Wilshere looks like he could be the one. Although I totally agree with your point.

 

Aye but shirley you need a team that can keep the ball?....one player who doesnt give it away on his own isn't going to make a lot of odds really. The top teams know when to take a rest in football....to just keep the ball and make sure nothing is happening on the pitch that requires any great effort. English players are still clueless about how to pace themselves in a game after 20 years of the champions league and being on more money than they know what to do with they still score a lot more goals in the first half of their games than the second. In the last big 5 tournaments (not including last year in SA) England scored 22 of their 35 goals in the first half of their games. In the games where they were eliminated from these tournaments, they scored 7 out of their 8 goals in the first half.

 

That book is really good btw

[Dr Gloom 22182]

i'm half watching the sweden game and i honestly couldn't be more bored with it. boring football, couldn't give a shit about any of the players. there's no romance at all with the national side anymore.