Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I just can't see how our wage bill has gone up considering who we've shipped out and the wages they were on. I'd imagine Enrique and Carroll weren't on huge wages. Enrique was meant to be on c. £60k a week and Carroll had just got a new contract and was on similar I think. Think Carroll revealed he was on 30k before he went in and asked Lambiarse for more money as the LIv bid came in (he's on 50k repotedly at the pool). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrossthepond 878 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I don't believe that this was ever Fat Mike's 'plan.' Why should he be given credit for things that he never intended to happen? Pardew has turned out to be decent, but he was appointed because he was a cheap option who would toe the bullshit line (which he has consistently done), not out of respect for his CV or because he was believed a candidate to take the club to the next level. Tiote, Ba and Cabaye have turned out to be excellent acquisitions, but again, how much of that was down to Fat Mike or his appointees? Tiote was scouted by KK and was recommended by McClaren. We all watched Ba do the business in the Premier League for West Ham and many of us were talking on here about how we should sign him long before any rumours of it actually taking place occurred, and Cabaye only won the French league last season - it's not like he was an unknown either. We were in for those players because we were taking gambles on inexpensive players who had good potential. Tiote and Cabaye came from weaker leagues; Ba had done well in England but was a risk because of his fitness, and Marveaux is in that category too. That's Mike Ashley's 'plan.' Is that worthy of plaudits? He gambled with our PL status and lost in January 2009, and he did it again last January but managed to win that time. Is this chancer who plays with the fate of our club really someone who you think deserves credit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If you want to be taken seriously when you criticise Ashley, then you have to give him credit for whatever is going well too. Otherwise you open yourself up to criticism as one of the daftees that wants £30m spent every window or else he's shit. There's only 5 players and a few back-room staff left from the year we got relegated (Smith don't count). All those appointments come from the top or from people appointed at the top. If it's working, it's ALL down to that. Smith going will save around £4m a year I imagine if the reports that he's one of the high earners are true (which I think they are). Collo is the highest paid now at around 70-80k. People like Krul and Best and LoveK are on silly money (15-20k iirc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I don't believe that this was ever Fat Mike's 'plan.' Why should he be given credit for things that he never intended to happen? Pardew has turned out to be decent, but he was appointed because he was a cheap option who would toe the bullshit line (which he has consistently done), not out of respect for his CV or because he was believed a candidate to take the club to the next level. Tiote, Ba and Cabaye have turned out to be excellent acquisitions, but again, how much of that was down to Fat Mike or his appointees? Tiote was scouted by KK and was recommended by McClaren. We all watched Ba do the business in the Premier League for West Ham and many of us were talking on here about how we should sign him long before any rumours of it actually taking place occurred, and Cabaye only won the French league last season - it's not like he was an unknown either. We were in for those players because we were taking gambles on inexpensive players who had good potential. Tiote and Cabaye came from weaker leagues; Ba had done well in England but was a risk because of his fitness, and Marveaux is in that category too. That's Mike Ashley's 'plan.' Is that worthy of plaudits? He gambled with our PL status and lost in January 2009, and he did it again last January but managed to win that time. Is this chancer who plays with the fate of our club really someone who you think deserves credit? Think it's fair to say we have a younger, fitter more competitive squad (albeit with zero depth in areas) than last year and MA has to take some credit for that. Pards doesn't sign players as far as I know. Edited October 17, 2011 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Is the squad better though? Not sure it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I don't believe that this was ever Fat Mike's 'plan.' Why should he be given credit for things that he never intended to happen? Pardew has turned out to be decent, but he was appointed because he was a cheap option who would toe the bullshit line (which he has consistently done), not out of respect for his CV or because he was believed a candidate to take the club to the next level. Tiote, Ba and Cabaye have turned out to be excellent acquisitions, but again, how much of that was down to Fat Mike or his appointees? Tiote was scouted by KK and was recommended by McClaren. We all watched Ba do the business in the Premier League for West Ham and many of us were talking on here about how we should sign him long before any rumours of it actually taking place occurred, and Cabaye only won the French league last season - it's not like he was an unknown either. We were in for those players because we were taking gambles on inexpensive players who had good potential. Tiote and Cabaye came from weaker leagues; Ba had done well in England but was a risk because of his fitness, and Marveaux is in that category too. That's Mike Ashley's 'plan.' Is that worthy of plaudits? He gambled with our PL status and lost in January 2009, and he did it again last January but managed to win that time. Is this chancer who plays with the fate of our club really someone who you think deserves credit? I'm one of the most anti-ashley people, but I hope it's always reasoned. It just comes across as rage when you complain irrespective of performance on the pitch. I agree with your view, Ashley gambled on not replacing Carroll at all in January, or properly in August....and it's worked, selling Given and Nzogbia 3 years back didn't. But then, every signing is a gamble. We gambled on Marcelino, Boumsong and Owen, and it was a lot more expensive gamble with the banks money rather than the clubs. You improve your odds a great deal when you spend top dollar on proven quality, this is why I fear it won't be sustained. The statement that we won't spend money on players past glory is one of the most ridiculous things i've heard, as if Madrid were robbed because Ronaldo was such a great player at Man U. It's exactly because of his past glory that he was in such demand and you have to pay what the market says a player is worth, or you're nowt more than a feeder club. Edited October 17, 2011 by Happy Face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Is the squad better though? Not sure it is. The midfield is arguably better and I'd rather have Ba than Carroll. Barton>Obertan Cabaye>Nolan (Cabaye offers so much more in allround play than Nolan the goalhanger). Guti and Tiote back to form Marveux and Bafra to come in. Marginally better I'd say on paper (much better on the pitch so far). Santon looks like he's as good as Enrique and miles better than Wilson. Edited October 17, 2011 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1260 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Is the squad better though? Not sure it is. The midfield is arguably better and I'd rather have Ba than Carroll. Barton>Obertan Cabaye>Nolan (Cabaye offers so much more in allround play than Nolan the goalhanger). Guti and Tiote back to form Marveux and Bafra to come in. Marginally better I'd say on paper (much better on the pitch so far). Santon looks like he's as good as Enrique and miles better than Wilson. That's an extremely bold statement after ten minutes on the pitch. The second part of the sentence is accurate though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Is the squad better though? Not sure it is. The midfield is arguably better and I'd rather have Ba than Carroll. Barton>Obertan Cabaye>Nolan (Cabaye offers so much more in allround play than Nolan the goalhanger). Guti and Tiote back to form Marveux and Bafra to come in. Marginally better I'd say on paper (much better on the pitch so far). Santon looks like he's as good as Enrique and miles better than Wilson. Apart from the Santon comment it speaks volumes that you've mentioned 3 players who were already here last season to prove your point. Agree about the first XI when all are fit like but that's why I highlighted the bit about the squad. Marveaux is an unknown quantity too. Not just looking for negatives but the lack of depth is the problem in terms of pushing on. No real worries about any relegation battles etc. after our start and seeing the rest of the league. What I would say though is the midfield is the key. If we play a canny few games with Cabaye and Tiote in the middle with Ben Arfa dropping in and Guiterrez on the left then we'll have too much for most sides. Wide right is a problem like. It would've been worth keeping Barton for one last season for his ability to play there and also in the middle when needed. Would've meant relying less on Ryan Taylor's set pieces too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Is the squad better though? Not sure it is. The midfield is arguably better and I'd rather have Ba than Carroll. Barton>Obertan Cabaye>Nolan (Cabaye offers so much more in allround play than Nolan the goalhanger). Guti and Tiote back to form Marveux and Bafra to come in. Marginally better I'd say on paper (much better on the pitch so far). Santon looks like he's as good as Enrique and miles better than Wilson. Apart from the Santon comment it speaks volumes that you've mentioned 3 players who were already here last season to prove your point. Agree about the first XI when all are fit like but that's why I highlighted the bit about the squad. Marveaux is an unknown quantity too. Not just looking for negatives but the lack of depth is the problem in terms of pushing on. No real worries about any relegation battles etc. after our start and seeing the rest of the league. What I would say though is the midfield is the key. If we play a canny few games with Cabaye and Tiote in the middle with Ben Arfa dropping in and Guiterrez on the left then we'll have too much for most sides. Wide right is a problem like. It would've been worth keeping Barton for one last season for his ability to play there and also in the middle when needed. Would've meant relying less on Ryan Taylor's set pieces too. Say what? Santon former SerieA starlet and Mourinho wonderkid. If only Obertan had been half decent. Mind you I did write Guti off early doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I reckon if you are still comparing Barton and Obertan, you stil havent really worked out the changes Pardew has implemented. Cabaye has replaced Barton as the creative fulcrum of the side, Obertan offers the pace required for the 442 we play to occupy the opposite full back and Ben Arfa will be this season's Nolan. When you look at it from the perspective of the system, we are 'set up' better than last season which is the important point. Yesterday was the strongest bench i have seen for years. So yes, definitely better for me but i think thats more to do with balance and (mostly) round pegs in round holes, rather than a significant upgrade in player quality in the starting 11. You can overplay the role of a left back, you need them to be of a certain standard but where they add substantial value in the modern game is how they attack and lead to goal scoring opportunities Raylor's couple of goals make up for a lot of what he lacks and he defended well yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think you've probably got a strong point about systems Chez but Obertan needs to offer a bit more than pace alone tbf. It is a big weakness atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I reckon if you are still comparing Barton and Obertan, you stil havent really worked out the changes Pardew has implemented. Cabaye has replaced Barton as the creative fulcrum of the side, Obertan offers the pace required for the 442 we play to occupy the opposite full back and Ben Arfa will be this season's Nolan. When you look at it from the perspective of the system, we are 'set up' better than last season which is the important point. Yesterday was the strongest bench i have seen for years. So yes, definitely better for me but i think thats more to do with balance and (mostly) round pegs in round holes, rather than a significant upgrade in player quality in the starting 11. You can overplay the role of a left back, you need them to be of a certain standard but where they add substantial value in the modern game is how they attack and lead to goal scoring opportunities Raylor's couple of goals make up for a lot of what he lacks and he defended well yesterday. In broad agreement with that. Think the side is clearly more cohesive with the ball and Guti turning into a real Argie at last is a bonus for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Cabaye has replaced Barton as the creative fulcrum of the side, Obertan offers the pace required for the 442 we play to occupy the opposite full back and Ben Arfa will be this season's Nolan. Argument to be made that Barton was filling in on the right as Routledge wasn't good enough...so Obertan is a replacement for Routledge...and about the same quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46088 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think you've probably got a strong point about systems Chez but Obertan needs to offer a bit more than pace alone tbf. It is a big weakness atm. His lass's tits are decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I must be really clever because I've worked out Obertan was brought in to provide pace but I've also noticed he's been shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Cabaye has replaced Barton as the creative fulcrum of the side, Obertan offers the pace required for the 442 we play to occupy the opposite full back and Ben Arfa will be this season's Nolan. Argument to be made that Barton was filling in on the right as Routledge wasn't good enough...so Obertan is a replacement for Routledge...and about the same quality I think thats fair enough other than the phyical differences between them. Obertan can protect the ball and get stuck in, Routledge would get bounced off the ball and is next to useless in tight spots down the flank. Not exactly a super upgrade but his physical attributes at least make him a better option. The point being, we are set up better, like for like player comparisons arent that revealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 14069 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I thought Obertan's problem might be his confidence but he doesn't appear to have the ability to run with the ball at real pace and take his man on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46088 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 In the interests of completeness, does anyone know what Routledge's lass's tits were like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostile_statue 0 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I thought Obertan's problem might be his confidence but he doesn't appear to have the ability to run with the ball at real pace and take his man on. Aye, he's got no confidence in 1on1 situations. He only seems to be running at full speed when there's no one around. Maybe he would work better as a sub, utilising his pace for 20 minutes or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think confidence is his problem at present, made worse by playing in every league game. Which is turn down to the lack of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortoon 0 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think Obertan is pretty shit, but then again I think every other signing we made this season has been pretty damn good. 1 flop out of 5 or whatever is a completely acceptable ratio. 3m and I would guess not a lot of money on wages. He's not THAT bad, completely acceptable player to have on the bench even if he doesnt improve, which he probably will considering he never got much first-team football at Manu. It will be interesting to see if he can improve, but I think he will be this years flop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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