Can't stop looking at the premiership league table

manc-mag · October 11, 2011

Fish, that was a decent read that and inevitably didn't receive the response it merited (wherein lies a lesson) but there's a slightly less forensic point to be made for me and that's simply that, whether you subscribe to the view it's been an 'easy' start to the season or not, we routinely make it our business to lose to those exact sorts of clubs even at times when people might argue we've had 'better' players. So well done to the lads and to the manager for that. The sequence of results deserves recognition simply because it's so out of the ordinary for us. It's a disgrace that it is out of the ordinary, but that's another matter entirely. The facts speak for themselves on that one.

Nobody's saying we'll finish where we are now, (literally nobody has said this, so it needs to be reiterated), and everyone's aware of the areas where the squad is more threadbare, but at least if the first team is gelling in broad terms then that's a positive, particularly given the large scale changes of the window.

Toonpack · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

Excellent post, white bit nails it.

There is a definitive "break point" and that as you say is the first Keegan years, after that there were blips or grasps at the heights again, each one not quite as high as the last and each one, not sustained. The sprial was heading down, we rose (a bit higher) and we fell (a bit lower) and that was going only one way. We never did consolidate it or rather, fully capitalise on or continue it, and all the while the game was changing and we were getting poorer and poorer.

your man will never get anywhere near the heights of the past regime or anywhere not even close to fulfilling the potential of the football club. Which is the main point that you are unable to grasp, instead accepting 2nd rate standards and expectations on a par with the Blackburns and Boltons.

I see you still haven't revised your opinion of Mike Ashley yet, despite saying for months that you would, based on the transfer deadline and how he would show his ambitions for the future success of the club.

Take your time.

As wouldn't the "latter" previous regime, which is the point you fail to grasp. In fact, my contention (opinion) is that the "latter previous regime" would have taken us to as yet unplumbed and horrific depths.

My opinion of MA is what it always was, he's a twat, but I am gratefull for his deep pockets. Please feel free to find where I've said different.

Your "Ashley's back pocket" comments amply illustrate your ignorance. Please also feel free to produce evidence that MA has taken even a penny out of the club.

When that time comes I'll accept he's profiteering, but he has £52,000,000.01 to go, before he outstrips the "achievements" of the previous regime.

Still no Nolan/Barton answer :icon_lol: (the question was, for the third or maybe fourth time) Would you have given Nolan/Barton the contract lengths and values that they achieved by their moves.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Toonpack

Dr Gloom · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

excellent post, a good upsum of our situation

Andrew · October 11, 2011

dont highlight stuff in white! half of us are using the light theme!

and aye fish that was a very good post though I agree with chez about the obertan barton comparison and the change in roles through the team

Edited October 11, 2011 by Semimental

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

Excellent post, white bit nails it.

There is a definitive "break point" and that as you say is the first Keegan years, after that there were blips or grasps at the heights again, each one not quite as high as the last and each one, not sustained. The sprial was heading down, we rose (a bit higher) and we fell (a bit lower) and that was going only one way. We never did consolidate it or rather, fully capitalise on or continue it, and all the while the game was changing and we were getting poorer and poorer.

your man will never get anywhere near the heights of the past regime or anywhere not even close to fulfilling the potential of the football club. Which is the main point that you are unable to grasp, instead accepting 2nd rate standards and expectations on a par with the Blackburns and Boltons.

I see you still haven't revised your opinion of Mike Ashley yet, despite saying for months that you would, based on the transfer deadline and how he would show his ambitions for the future success of the club.

Take your time.

As wouldn't the "latter" previous regime, which is the point you fail to grasp. In fact, my contention (opinion) is that the "latter previous regime" would have taken us to as yet unplumbed and horrific depths.

My opinion of MA is what it always was, he's a twat, but I am gratefull for his deep pockets. Please feel free to find where I've said different.

Your "Ashley's back pocket" comments amply illustrate your ignorance. Please also feel free to produce evidence that MA has taken even a penny out of the club.

When that time comes I'll accept he's profiteering, but he has £52,000,000.01 to go, before he outstrips the "achievements" of the previous regime.

Still no Nolan/Barton answer (the question was, for the third or maybe fourth time) Would you have given Nolan/Barton the contract lengths and values that they achieved by their moves.

1. "taken us to unplumbed and horrific depths" is frankly total rubbish. Are you talking about relegation to the 3rd division, 10000 crowds, a failed share issue and bankruptcy ? This is where they found it. If you are going to say such things, back them up with knowledge of the history of the club, rather than wild and irrational statements plucked out of thin air, like most non-supporters do.

2. You said for months that you would re-appraise the ambitions of Mike Ashley AFTER the last transfer deadline, because "he finally had the club in a position to spend". The fact is, he didn't spend, and the money from transfer sales has disappeared. So what exactly is your re-appraisal of his ambitions for the club ?

3. He has a long way to go before matching the european qualifications of the previous regime, indeed, and in view of the fall in attendances, sale of best players, and the fall in profile and overall revenues, it will be a long time coming, if ever. In fact, as he is pocketing huge sums of money WHILE owning the club, can you explain where these ambitions that you claimed would cause you to re-assess his ambitions are going to come from, if he isn't even putting transfer money from the sale of our best players back iinto the purchase of new ones, never mind new ones of a similar calibre or better [which ought to be the case].

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

I didn't expect you to reply, in fact I don't expect you to ever reply. You are like a few others, not just on here, who have called it all spectacularly wrong and you just haven't got the balls to admit it. Strange that they mostly seem to be people who don't spend their actual cash on the club to support their man and his exciting vision of the future, or however you see semi-permanent obscurity.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

excellent post, a good upsum of our situation

we need an owner/owners who keep our best players and aim for high league placings and european spots don't we ?

ChezGiven · October 11, 2011

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

ChezGiven · October 11, 2011

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

Thats what i just said. Money is divisible, you dont have to spend it all to maximise the improvement in the team, or looked at another way you can still improve the team more than someone spending more than you.

As you say, its what done with it over time that matters. Since 2009 we have moved from Barton and Nolan to Cabaye and Ben Arfa. You'd have to search pretty hard for any football fan worth their salt who would prefer the first two over the latter two. Its not even a question for me.

The Left-back position is currently under the 'decline' banner but thats only because we havent seen Santon and tbf, he'd have to be fucking good to be on a par with Enrique.

The attack is hard to really judge, they've got goals under their belts and if they keep doing that then we perhaps havent gone forwards much but we have certainly not gone backwards.

The interest is declining but that started in 06/07 when we started to post sub 50K attendances for the first time on a regular basis. If we keep the results going, the interest will come back. It ebbs and flows and its set against a societal trend too.

Toonpack · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

Excellent post, white bit nails it.

There is a definitive "break point" and that as you say is the first Keegan years, after that there were blips or grasps at the heights again, each one not quite as high as the last and each one, not sustained. The sprial was heading down, we rose (a bit higher) and we fell (a bit lower) and that was going only one way. We never did consolidate it or rather, fully capitalise on or continue it, and all the while the game was changing and we were getting poorer and poorer.

your man will never get anywhere near the heights of the past regime or anywhere not even close to fulfilling the potential of the football club. Which is the main point that you are unable to grasp, instead accepting 2nd rate standards and expectations on a par with the Blackburns and Boltons.

I see you still haven't revised your opinion of Mike Ashley yet, despite saying for months that you would, based on the transfer deadline and how he would show his ambitions for the future success of the club.

Take your time.

As wouldn't the "latter" previous regime, which is the point you fail to grasp. In fact, my contention (opinion) is that the "latter previous regime" would have taken us to as yet unplumbed and horrific depths.

My opinion of MA is what it always was, he's a twat, but I am gratefull for his deep pockets. Please feel free to find where I've said different.

Your "Ashley's back pocket" comments amply illustrate your ignorance. Please also feel free to produce evidence that MA has taken even a penny out of the club.

When that time comes I'll accept he's profiteering, but he has £52,000,000.01 to go, before he outstrips the "achievements" of the previous regime.

Still no Nolan/Barton answer (the question was, for the third or maybe fourth time) Would you have given Nolan/Barton the contract lengths and values that they achieved by their moves.

1. "taken us to unplumbed and horrific depths" is frankly total rubbish. Are you talking about relegation to the 3rd division, 10000 crowds, a failed share issue and bankruptcy ? This is where they found it. If you are going to say such things, back them up with knowledge of the history of the club, rather than wild and irrational statements plucked out of thin air, like most non-supporters do.

2. You said for months that you would re-appraise the ambitions of Mike Ashley AFTER the last transfer deadline, because "he finally had the club in a position to spend". The fact is, he didn't spend, and the money from transfer sales has disappeared. So what exactly is your re-appraisal of his ambitions for the club ?

3. He has a long way to go before matching the european qualifications of the previous regime, indeed, and in view of the fall in attendances, sale of best players, and the fall in profile and overall revenues, it will be a long time coming, if ever. In fact, as he is pocketing huge sums of money WHILE owning the club, can you explain where these ambitions that you claimed would cause you to re-assess his ambitions are going to come from, if he isn't even putting transfer money from the sale of our best players back iinto the purchase of new ones, never mind new ones of a similar calibre or better [which ought to be the case].

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

I didn't expect you to reply, in fact I don't expect you to ever reply. You are like a few others, not just on here, who have called it all spectacularly wrong and you just haven't got the balls to admit it. Strange that they mostly seem to be people who don't spend their actual cash on the club to support their man and his exciting vision of the future, or however you see semi-permanent obscurity.

Red bit - Please provide evidence. Has he reached £52,000,000.01 yet ??

Still no yes or no on Barton/Nolan - would you have paid them the money. How can you now say it's of no relevance, yet harangue the club up for "selling it's best players", which I interpret as you meaning they should not have been sold, which leads me to surmise you would have paid them the money/contracts. Yes or No.

I have answered the "my view" question inumerable times.

The Fish · October 11, 2011

the team and squad is not as good, and the club is in decline long term.

Sorry like, but that post makes no difference.

By the way, I'm not "having the same argument", it is the same people who keep disagreeing with me. It's been going on a few years now, and the longer it goes on......

I really thought that you were one of those who wouldn't be stupid enough to be fooled by a short run of results, especially mostly against the weaker teams in the league.

Ok, I know it's an subjective thing. But I'd like a little more meat to that sandwich if possible? You say the squad isn't as good. Could you show me that in more detail please?

I am not "fooled by a short run of results" and I'm not sure what, in my post, makes you think I am. These "weaker" teams. Do you mean they're weaker this season? I look at Arsenal, Villa, Fulham as being top half and fairly decent top half at that. Wolves, sunderland are midtable but difficult to predict; Wolves, on their day, can make life difficult for any club simply by being a brutal physical side, sunderland is the derby and you can never predict that.

QPR is an interesting one for me, and if I had more interest I'd bother my arse to check, but I'd like to know the form that spills over from a successful Championship campaign? Do the promoted champions carry on their good work into the new season?

But, it's not who we've played that is important to me. It's the performances of individuals, groups and the team as a whole. The midfield is looking very good and will only improve as understanding between the players grows.

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

Thats what i just said. Money is divisible, you dont have to spend it all to maximise the improvement in the team, or looked at another way you can still improve the team more than someone spending more than you.

As you say, its what done with it over time that matters. Since 2009 we have moved from Barton and Nolan to Cabaye and Ben Arfa. You'd have to search pretty hard for any football fan worth their salt who would prefer the first two over the latter two. Its not even a question for me.

The Left-back position is currently under the 'decline' banner but thats only because we havent seen Santon and tbf, he'd have to be fucking good to be on a par with Enrique.

The attack is hard to really judge, they've got goals under their belts and if they keep doing that then we perhaps havent gone forwards much but we have certainly not gone backwards.

The interest is declining but that started in 06/07 when we started to post sub 50K attendances for the first time on a regular basis. If we keep the results going, the interest will come back. It ebbs and flows and its set against a societal trend too.

Hate quote pyramids but felt to crop would play havoc with the context. I think Chez's posts in reply to Leazes are kind of what I'm aiming for. I am happy to discuss the football club with Leazes, as I think it's good to have differing opinions. I all too often bite at his barbed comments, and now reckon that if I just straight ignore them, he'll stop dropping them in, as shown by his conversations with Chez.

As a final thought, it seems that Leazes has some entrenched ideas (as have we all). For example, it appears that he believes that there is a separate pot for the transfer funds of players. As did I, to be honest, it made sense to me to have running costs covered by one fund, transfers covered by another... kind of like having a savings account for holidays. :dunno: I know this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at the financing of a large and complex company, especially when the merits of expenditure aren't as immediately obvious as buying a nice shiny tv.

He also appears to think the word argument only means an "exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: "I've had an argument with my father"."

Rather than "A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."

Couple these entrenched ideas with a habit of skimming over posts, he gives the impression of willfull ignorance, or fingers in the ear immaturity.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

Fish, that was a decent read that and inevitably didn't receive the response it merited (wherein lies a lesson) but there's a slightly less forensic point to be made for me and that's simply that, whether you subscribe to the view it's been an 'easy' start to the season or not, we routinely make it our business to lose to those exact sorts of clubs even at times when people might argue we've had 'better' players. So well done to the lads and to the manager for that. The sequence of results deserves recognition simply because it's so out of the ordinary for us. It's a disgrace that it is out of the ordinary, but that's another matter entirely. The facts speak for themselves on that one.

Nobody's saying we'll finish where we are now, (literally nobody has said this, so it needs to be reiterated), and everyone's aware of the areas where the squad is more threadbare, but at least if the first team is gelling in broad terms then that's a positive, particularly given the large scale changes of the window.

typical post from the Grey man.

I stand by my view, similar to years ago, I'm 100% confident in it.

Shame you don't have any views on anything, or can answer what I asked you. Presumably because you think they may prove to be wrong.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

I'm not and never have advocated challenging for the title. Find a post from me that says this ?

What I DO advocate, is that we challenge the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, rather than sell our best players to smaller clubs and put up with the money disappearing down a big black hole.

And - yes - in my opinion, this will continue to be the case for as long as Mike Ashley owns this football club.

Ok, so you want us to challenge the likes of Liverpool and Spurs (I'm presuming this is an "at least" scenario"). Ok, now I have a frame of reference to your expectations.

Do you think the current 1st team is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

Do you think the current squad is better than that of last year? (pre Carroll departure)

unlike posters such as mancmag, and others, I'll give my view. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I'm right, as always.

The current team is not as good as a year ago.

The current squad is not as good as a year ago.

The club is, in the long run, heading downwards, the expectations etc have dived. Why do you think the commercial profile and crowds are down ?

Ok, I'll give my player by player comparison to explain why I think the 1st team is stronger than it was last year

Krul - Harper

Much of a muchness to be honest, although the former has bags of potential and by your own admission looks more capable with crosses

Simpson - Simpson

I think he's improving, but he's still an average right back

Taylor - Taylor

Again, I think he's average Premiership, but his confidence is growing as his his understanding with Colo

Coloccini - Coloccini

Best defender at the club (now) plays well with Taylor and is the best CB to pull on the shirt since Woodgate imo

Santon/Raylor - Enrique

Raylor is clearly a shit left back, Santon hasn't been seen yet so I can;t really compare. However, Jose Enrique was not only the best defender at the club, he was arguably the best left back in the country and he wouldn't look out of place in any club.

Obertan - Barton

Barton is a better player, Obertan is a better winger. I don't think Gabriel will keep his place when Marveaux, Ben Arfa and Jonas are all fit and flying. I would say we'll miss Barton's application, he's clearly a good footballer, but I think the midfield is better without him (I'll say why in a bit)

Cabaye - Nolan.

This is a no brainer, even in 7 games Cabaye is 10 times the player Nolan is. He's fitter, more mobile, more astute with the pass, he works harder and he will give us goal scoring options outside the box.

Tiote - Tiote

The man is a beast and will grow and grow. He will be better this season than he was last.

Jonas - Jonas

Spiderman is a good Premiership player, regardless of what some people think, you can't underestimate his contribution. He provides a much needed way of carrying the ball away from defense, he works hard all game, wins so many free-kicks (by fair or foul), corners etc.

Best/Ameobi - Ameobi/Lovenkrands

Best has had a good start, whether he can continue is a different question. However, The choice between Ameobi and Best is a much more pleasing quandary than Ameobi or Lovenkrands. The latter is finished. He may pop up with the odd cup goal, but I'd rather Sameobi or Vuckic or even Ranger got their chance ahead of him.

Ba - Carroll

This is tough. Ba looks a good Premier League striker; mobile, physical, decent touch, decent finish. Is he as good as Carroll? only time will tell, personally? I don't think he is. I think Carroll will become a more imposing player than Ba. For this club at this time, obviously I'd rather Carroll were still here, alongside Ba, but as it stands we've lost 1 15 goal a season striker and replaced him with another imo.

Overall, we've improved the midfield to such an extent I'd definitely say the squad was stronger. In Cabaye we have a player of genuine quality, and the central pairing has been praised , to me, by fans of all manner of clubs. People are saying that it's the best centre in the premier league. This is why I think that losing Barton and Nolan isn't a death knell. I think when Ben Arfa returns and we have guile to go with the steel in the centre we will genuinely have a top 4 midfield.

Up front isn't so great, but then it wasn't great with Carroll and he's not exactly pulling up trees. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, but his overall play has been poor by all accounts. Whereas Ba has been on fire. I truly believe that with the addition of a decent striker at Christmas we'd be the form team again.

The defence as individuals aren't spectacular, but we've conceded the fewest number of goals in the English League. That can only be down to hard work on the training fields and astute tactics. Would I have Enrique back? In an instant. However, Santon may well be a good addition.

I understand your frustration, but I think you've taken a stance and will now not be swayed from it, regardless of the evidence before you.

re: your last statement, I think expectations were dropping even before MA bought the club. Under Shepherd and Halls I didn't automatically assume we'd be challenging for top honours because I saw Chelsea suddenly come into vast sums of money. I saw Wenger's experiment pay off to such a degree it was impossible to imagine that 7 games into a season they'd be floundering so badly. I saw the Man U juggernaut grow stronger with each passing season. The only thing I was sure under the previous regime is we'd spend around £15m in the transfer window. We still finished bottom half of the Premier League under the previous regime roughly as many times as we finished in the top half. When Dalglish took over from Keegan, I expected Champions League, when Gullit took over from Dalglish I expected Europe. When Sir Bobby took over I expected survival. Souness? Relegation.

I don't think it's fair to say Newcastle fans' expectations have dropped since Mike Ashley. They've been steadily depressing for a while. Ever since the unblievable highs of Keegan's first reign came crashing down. I also don't think it's fair to say that in reducing our expectations we're being anything less than realistic. You yourself have said that you expect to challenge Spurs and Liverpool, not go for the title. Is this not evidence of your own expectations getting in line with reality? With the league as it is; all the power with the super-rich, Newcastle United simply cannot compete. With or without Shepherd and Hall at the helm. They could spend as much as they could muster, it still would pale in comparison to the half a billion the Etihad Arena has seen grace it's pitch. Half a Billion!

But none of this matters, unless you finally, eventually, stop having the same argument everytime you come on here.

Excellent post, white bit nails it.

There is a definitive "break point" and that as you say is the first Keegan years, after that there were blips or grasps at the heights again, each one not quite as high as the last and each one, not sustained. The sprial was heading down, we rose (a bit higher) and we fell (a bit lower) and that was going only one way. We never did consolidate it or rather, fully capitalise on or continue it, and all the while the game was changing and we were getting poorer and poorer.

your man will never get anywhere near the heights of the past regime or anywhere not even close to fulfilling the potential of the football club. Which is the main point that you are unable to grasp, instead accepting 2nd rate standards and expectations on a par with the Blackburns and Boltons.

I see you still haven't revised your opinion of Mike Ashley yet, despite saying for months that you would, based on the transfer deadline and how he would show his ambitions for the future success of the club.

Take your time.

As wouldn't the "latter" previous regime, which is the point you fail to grasp. In fact, my contention (opinion) is that the "latter previous regime" would have taken us to as yet unplumbed and horrific depths.

My opinion of MA is what it always was, he's a twat, but I am gratefull for his deep pockets. Please feel free to find where I've said different.

Your "Ashley's back pocket" comments amply illustrate your ignorance. Please also feel free to produce evidence that MA has taken even a penny out of the club.

When that time comes I'll accept he's profiteering, but he has £52,000,000.01 to go, before he outstrips the "achievements" of the previous regime.

Still no Nolan/Barton answer (the question was, for the third or maybe fourth time) Would you have given Nolan/Barton the contract lengths and values that they achieved by their moves.

1. "taken us to unplumbed and horrific depths" is frankly total rubbish. Are you talking about relegation to the 3rd division, 10000 crowds, a failed share issue and bankruptcy ? This is where they found it. If you are going to say such things, back them up with knowledge of the history of the club, rather than wild and irrational statements plucked out of thin air, like most non-supporters do.

2. You said for months that you would re-appraise the ambitions of Mike Ashley AFTER the last transfer deadline, because "he finally had the club in a position to spend". The fact is, he didn't spend, and the money from transfer sales has disappeared. So what exactly is your re-appraisal of his ambitions for the club ?

3. He has a long way to go before matching the european qualifications of the previous regime, indeed, and in view of the fall in attendances, sale of best players, and the fall in profile and overall revenues, it will be a long time coming, if ever. In fact, as he is pocketing huge sums of money WHILE owning the club, can you explain where these ambitions that you claimed would cause you to re-assess his ambitions are going to come from, if he isn't even putting transfer money from the sale of our best players back iinto the purchase of new ones, never mind new ones of a similar calibre or better [which ought to be the case].

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

I didn't expect you to reply, in fact I don't expect you to ever reply. You are like a few others, not just on here, who have called it all spectacularly wrong and you just haven't got the balls to admit it. Strange that they mostly seem to be people who don't spend their actual cash on the club to support their man and his exciting vision of the future, or however you see semi-permanent obscurity.

Red bit - Please provide evidence. Has he reached £52,000,000.01 yet ??

Still no yes or no on Barton/Nolan - would you have paid them the money. How can you now say it's of no relevance, yet harangue the club up for "selling it's best players", which I interpret as you meaning they should not have been sold, which leads me to surmise you would have paid them the money/contracts. Yes or No.

I have answered the "my view" question inumerable times.

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

Edited October 11, 2011 by LeazesMag

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

the team and squad is not as good, and the club is in decline long term.

Sorry like, but that post makes no difference.

By the way, I'm not "having the same argument", it is the same people who keep disagreeing with me. It's been going on a few years now, and the longer it goes on......

I really thought that you were one of those who wouldn't be stupid enough to be fooled by a short run of results, especially mostly against the weaker teams in the league.

Ok, I know it's an subjective thing. But I'd like a little more meat to that sandwich if possible? You say the squad isn't as good. Could you show me that in more detail please?

I am not "fooled by a short run of results" and I'm not sure what, in my post, makes you think I am. These "weaker" teams. Do you mean they're weaker this season? I look at Arsenal, Villa, Fulham as being top half and fairly decent top half at that. Wolves, sunderland are midtable but difficult to predict; Wolves, on their day, can make life difficult for any club simply by being a brutal physical side, sunderland is the derby and you can never predict that.

QPR is an interesting one for me, and if I had more interest I'd bother my arse to check, but I'd like to know the form that spills over from a successful Championship campaign? Do the promoted champions carry on their good work into the new season?

But, it's not who we've played that is important to me. It's the performances of individuals, groups and the team as a whole. The midfield is looking very good and will only improve as understanding between the players grows.

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

Thats what i just said. Money is divisible, you dont have to spend it all to maximise the improvement in the team, or looked at another way you can still improve the team more than someone spending more than you.

As you say, its what done with it over time that matters. Since 2009 we have moved from Barton and Nolan to Cabaye and Ben Arfa. You'd have to search pretty hard for any football fan worth their salt who would prefer the first two over the latter two. Its not even a question for me.

The Left-back position is currently under the 'decline' banner but thats only because we havent seen Santon and tbf, he'd have to be fucking good to be on a par with Enrique.

The attack is hard to really judge, they've got goals under their belts and if they keep doing that then we perhaps havent gone forwards much but we have certainly not gone backwards.

The interest is declining but that started in 06/07 when we started to post sub 50K attendances for the first time on a regular basis. If we keep the results going, the interest will come back. It ebbs and flows and its set against a societal trend too.

Hate quote pyramids but felt to crop would play havoc with the context. I think Chez's posts in reply to Leazes are kind of what I'm aiming for. I am happy to discuss the football club with Leazes, as I think it's good to have differing opinions. I all too often bite at his barbed comments, and now reckon that if I just straight ignore them, he'll stop dropping them in, as shown by his conversations with Chez.

As a final thought, it seems that Leazes has some entrenched ideas (as have we all). For example, it appears that he believes that there is a separate pot for the transfer funds of players. As did I, to be honest, it made sense to me to have running costs covered by one fund, transfers covered by another... kind of like having a savings account for holidays. I know this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at the financing of a large and complex company, especially when the merits of expenditure aren't as immediately obvious as buying a nice shiny tv.

He also appears to think the word argument only means an "exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: "I've had an argument with my father"."

Rather than "A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."

Couple these entrenched ideas with a habit of skimming over posts, he gives the impression of willfull ignorance, or fingers in the ear immaturity.

if you really think the last 2 transfer windows have actually strengthened the team, and gave soundbites to the rest of the football world including our own best players that we are a progressive club aiming for success, I really don't know what to say to you.

manc-mag · October 11, 2011

Fish, that was a decent read that and inevitably didn't receive the response it merited (wherein lies a lesson) but there's a slightly less forensic point to be made for me and that's simply that, whether you subscribe to the view it's been an 'easy' start to the season or not, we routinely make it our business to lose to those exact sorts of clubs even at times when people might argue we've had 'better' players. So well done to the lads and to the manager for that. The sequence of results deserves recognition simply because it's so out of the ordinary for us. It's a disgrace that it is out of the ordinary, but that's another matter entirely. The facts speak for themselves on that one.

Nobody's saying we'll finish where we are now, (literally nobody has said this, so it needs to be reiterated), and everyone's aware of the areas where the squad is more threadbare, but at least if the first team is gelling in broad terms then that's a positive, particularly given the large scale changes of the window.

typical post from the Grey man.

I stand by my view, similar to years ago, I'm 100% confident in it.

Shame you don't have any views on anything, or can answer what I asked you. Presumably because you think they may prove to be wrong.

Leazes, it narks you that I won't debate with you, but the only reason I won't debate is because you can't debate. I debate with loads of posters on here, it's only you I avoid.

In any event when asked about what level of success you think is realistic for us you've already said that you believe we should be looking to 'match' Tottenham. I happen to agree with that within a certain margin of error, so I hardly see the point in arguing in the first place. I've also said that on a personal level I don't believe we'll have done enough to match them yet this season. I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong though.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

Thats what i just said. Money is divisible, you dont have to spend it all to maximise the improvement in the team, or looked at another way you can still improve the team more than someone spending more than you.

As you say, its what done with it over time that matters. Since 2009 we have moved from Barton and Nolan to Cabaye and Ben Arfa. You'd have to search pretty hard for any football fan worth their salt who would prefer the first two over the latter two. Its not even a question for me.

The Left-back position is currently under the 'decline' banner but thats only because we havent seen Santon and tbf, he'd have to be fucking good to be on a par with Enrique.

The attack is hard to really judge, they've got goals under their belts and if they keep doing that then we perhaps havent gone forwards much but we have certainly not gone backwards.

The interest is declining but that started in 06/07 when we started to post sub 50K attendances for the first time on a regular basis. If we keep the results going , the interest will come back. It ebbs and flows and its set against a societal trend too.

we won't.

And 50,000 crowds on a regular basis, and the number of season tickets that were previously sold, again, is miles away.

Edited October 11, 2011 by LeazesMag

Toonpack · October 11, 2011

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

When did I ever say that or even intimate it ??? Please, really, explain that one.

No you fucking haven't :icon_lol:

manc-mag · October 11, 2011

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

When did I ever say that or even intimate it ??? Please, really, explain that one.

No you fucking haven't

I realise the question was purely rhetorical, but just to confirm how it reads to any rational person reading the thread: he clearly just completely made it up. As is his wont.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

When did I ever say that or even intimate it ??? Please, really, explain that one.

No you fucking haven't

oh yes I have. You haven't gave us your view of Mike Ashley yet. Presumably you have abstained ? You said you would re-appraise him because you thought he would buy some top players and show ambition, didn't you ?

Bet you won't admit that.

PS.....buying top players may mean "going into debt" again though, wouldn't it ? This point has been made previously by myself and others. I knew we wouldn't see that cash from Carroll, I also know that we will always carry inferior expectations to what we should while he owns this football club.

It's as obvious as the fact that you and others like you, aren't bothering to support the man you think is planning such a good future, having lost interest and attraction since those despicable days when we were buying top footballers and playing in europe and the Champions League.

LeazesMag · October 11, 2011

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

When did I ever say that or even intimate it ??? Please, really, explain that one.

No you fucking haven't

I realise the question was purely rhetorical, but just to confirm how it reads to any rational person reading the thread: he clearly just completely made it up. As is his wont.

most rational people will only see you as the ultimate grey man. Sadly for you.

And obsessed. Once again, you have jumped in to address me here, for no reason other than to disagree with me, but without stating your own views. How irrational is that.

Edited October 11, 2011 by LeazesMag

manc-mag · October 11, 2011

Leazes read through the thread and see who's consistently begging for me to express my opinion. It's a good indicator of who has the obsession.

Toonpack · October 11, 2011

what matters is what they do while they own the club. We all know you think that 15 years was a complete waste of time, as they "won nothing".

Do you have a mortgage ? Will you want to make a profit when you sell your house ? Your apparent view that they should have offered the club to Mike Ashley for what they paid for it in shares in the first instance is absurd, but only to be expected from someone who clearly has an irrational agenda against the best owners by far that have owned this football club in the past 50 years, along with poor judgement when you wanted them replaced by "anybody".

I've answered your comment about Barton, I don't think too many people will be happy to give our player of the year away for nothing.

Your hypocrisy is astounding too, given that you have only replied to one of my questions I asked you in the previous post that you have also quoted.

When did I ever say that or even intimate it ??? Please, really, explain that one.

No you fucking haven't

oh yes I have. You haven't gave us your view of Mike Ashley yet. Presumably you have abstained ? You said you would re-appraise him because you thought he would buy some top players and show ambition, didn't you ?

Bet you won't admit that.

PS.....buying top players may mean "going into debt" again though, wouldn't it ? This point has been made previously by myself and others. I knew we wouldn't see that cash from Carroll, I also know that we will always carry inferior expectations to what we should while he owns this football club.

It's as obvious as the fact that you and others like you, aren't bothering to support the man you think is planning such a good future, having lost interest and attraction since those despicable days when we were buying top footballers and playing in europe and the Champions League.

Nope, not necessarily - see Spurs

Sorry must have missed the Barton/Nolan answer, was it yes or no ??

Also Would LOVE to know why you think I believe Hall/Shep should have sold for what they paid. If I understand your reasoning I can calrify.

ChezGiven · October 11, 2011

4. The sale of Barton and Nolan ie 2 players and their respective reasons has little relevance, what is important is what the club does with the money received from the sales.

Replaced in the starting 11 by Cabaye and Ben Arfa (or i guess thats the plan anyway). Money has nothing to do with whether thats an improvement or not. It has no relevance only whether other players of a high quality are available to replace them.

What is done with the money is not the metric, results are the main one and at a club like ours, performances too. Dont think that its much more than results for a club like Stoke but any of the big clubs its relevant.

what is done with the money IS the metric.

The reason that the club is on a downward slide, is BECAUSE our best players are being sold, and the manager is not being allowed to compete for top quality replacements in the current state of the transfer market.

This has a knock on effect to ALL revenues, profile and interest in the football club.

The club is in decline. Expectations have declined. Interest has declined. Our best players know it.

Thats what i just said. Money is divisible, you dont have to spend it all to maximise the improvement in the team, or looked at another way you can still improve the team more than someone spending more than you.

As you say, its what done with it over time that matters. Since 2009 we have moved from Barton and Nolan to Cabaye and Ben Arfa. You'd have to search pretty hard for any football fan worth their salt who would prefer the first two over the latter two. Its not even a question for me.

The Left-back position is currently under the 'decline' banner but thats only because we havent seen Santon and tbf, he'd have to be fucking good to be on a par with Enrique.

The attack is hard to really judge, they've got goals under their belts and if they keep doing that then we perhaps havent gone forwards much but we have certainly not gone backwards.

The interest is declining but that started in 06/07 when we started to post sub 50K attendances for the first time on a regular basis. If we keep the results going , the interest will come back. It ebbs and flows and its set against a societal trend too.

we won't.

And 50,000 crowds on a regular basis, and the number of season tickets that were previously sold, again, is miles away.

I contradicted myself anyway there. What i meant to say was that its not spending or money per se which is the metric, its just the playing staff, the results and performances. I said 'thats what i just said' to you, when i blatantly hadnt. Sorry.

There are two points being mixed up, of course as you recognise its not just about spending money, it needs to be spent well which i think what you meant. I was just thinking about the purchases of Crouch for £12m and whether i'd prefer to have Ba. I'd prefer to have Ba i think. That point is what i meant earlier anyway.

Happy Face · October 11, 2011

Given the turnover of our team it's gonna be very difficult to keep pulling out cheap players that can maintain our current position...or within 6 places of it.

Our first team this year is

Krul

Collo

Taylor

Simpson

Raylor

Guti

Cabaye

Tiote

Obertan

Best

Ba

Once Raylor is usurped by Santon I think there's only 3 first team players there who've been at the club 2 years.

The fact this team are where it is for what's been spent is remarkable and commendable, for everyone involved, You can't buy 11 new players every 2 years on our budget and maintain it though, so we're gonna have to start keeping hold of our good performers if we're going to be as happy in another 2 years.

Happy Face · October 11, 2011

Adding it up, I think that first 11 cost us less than Andy Carroll cost Liverpool

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