Wolves (a) 1st October

[Kitman 2204]

Delighted with 3 away points, geddin. Didn't see the game but sounds like a draw would have been fair. Ha ha, up yours MickMack!

 

Interesting that neither Santon nor Barfa came on from the bench. Also that Elliott was sub keeper ahead of Harper who presumably is now fit. Assume they're making it clear he won't get a game and should leave in Jan.

 

Toys out of pram, "am not travelling half the length of the country to sit on the bench" I believe was the quote.

 

 

Hadn't heard that, is that a fact? Unprofessional if true....

[sammynb 3150]

Great result.

 

Pardew said in the post-match interview, paraphrasing, "We've got 15 points (from 7 games) and you don't get that without being a good side". And he's right, I'm starting to think that despite the easy start, Pardoo deserves some credit for getting the results against teams we would have been beaten by in the past. Normally we don't go away to relegation candidate sides and get the points, normally we don't play poorly and win. I might take some stick for this but Pardoo seems to know what he is doing.

 

Our performances are rarely perfect but we get results and thats what matters. Ba and Cabaye look like brilliant brilliant signings, Marveaux looks promising, Abeid and Santon seem promising, Obertan is shit but lets ignore that.

 

I don't think I'm getting carried away by suggesting we could very conceivably finish 7th/8th. Aside from the teams with CL hopes there aren't any teams that I would class as being any better than we are. Especially with us getting the points from the sides that we can consider worse than us theres no reason we can't finish ahead of the likes of Everton, Stoke, etc.

 

Overjoyed we're picking up points against fellow strugglers, but that's exactly what they all are, and we've ridden our luck to pick up those points.

 

I find pardoo's approach after going 2 up very worrying. Bringing on the 2 slowest, worst players on our bench (i assume for their 'experience') was daft when there's players available who could have compounded the misery for wolves.

 

He Invited pressure onto a defense who have performed excellent so far this season, but in all hontesty have not come up against anyone with any killer instinct and as a result are flattered by conceding so few.

 

This and his refusal to substitute Squidward who clearly wasn't helping relieve the pressure by continually turning over possession.

At the 60 minute mark it was obvious change was needed.

HBA for Ba and Marveaux for Squidward would have been positive and sent a message to the opposition.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Looking beyond the points, Im kind of puzzled why we see a 2-0 lead as an excuse to sub in our worst players. 2-0 really isnt enough, 5-0 yeah - I could see that.

Why is swapping in Ben arfa and Santon a bad idea when your up against a relegation side? Honest question: Is it really better to wait until we are down by 2 and they are subbed in to try to reverse the entire match-picture?

[Toonpack 8686]

Looking beyond the points, Im kind of puzzled why we see a 2-0 lead as an excuse to sub in our worst players. 2-0 really isnt enough, 5-0 yeah - I could see that.

Why is swapping in Ben arfa and Santon a bad idea when your up against a relegation side? Honest question: Is it really better to wait until we are down by 2 and they are subbed in to try to reverse the entire match-picture?

 

We won

[Barney 0]

He probably thought Lovenkrands would put in a good shift and his pace could stretch Wolves off knockdowns.

 

Guthrie for Cabaye must have been due to Cabaye being knackered and it was a 'like for like'. Guthrie is shit though.

Regarding Santon, Pardew has said he has no English and throwing him on for his debut and disrupting the back 4 could have been very risky.

[Monroe Transfer 0]

He also said he owed Lovenkrands some minutes after his 2 goals against Forest. He would have given him the minutes against Blackburn but he wanted to reward Ben Arfa for all his hard work.

 

I guess he got complacent at 2-0 up. Guthrie was a defensive sub.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Tecato

[Monroe Transfer 0]

Great result.

 

Pardew said in the post-match interview, paraphrasing, "We've got 15 points (from 7 games) and you don't get that without being a good side". And he's right, I'm starting to think that despite the easy start, Pardoo deserves some credit for getting the results against teams we would have been beaten by in the past. Normally we don't go away to relegation candidate sides and get the points, normally we don't play poorly and win. I might take some stick for this but Pardoo seems to know what he is doing.

 

Our performances are rarely perfect but we get results and thats what matters. Ba and Cabaye look like brilliant brilliant signings, Marveaux looks promising, Abeid and Santon seem promising, Obertan is shit but lets ignore that.

 

I don't think I'm getting carried away by suggesting we could very conceivably finish 7th/8th. Aside from the teams with CL hopes there aren't any teams that I would class as being any better than we are. Especially with us getting the points from the sides that we can consider worse than us theres no reason we can't finish ahead of the likes of Everton, Stoke, etc.

 

Overjoyed we're picking up points against fellow strugglers, but that's exactly what they all are, and we've ridden our luck to pick up those points.

 

I find pardoo's approach after going 2 up very worrying. Bringing on the 2 slowest, worst players on our bench (i assume for their 'experience') was daft when there's players available who could have compounded the misery for wolves.

 

He Invited pressure onto a defense who have performed excellent so far this season, but in all hontesty have not come up against anyone with any killer instinct and as a result are flattered by conceding so few.

 

You don't sound like you're "overjoyed" about anything tbh.

[Barney 0]

Ginola on talking about us on Goals on Sunday.

Said he's been talking about us on French tv as there's been interest in all our frogs.

Reckons Ben Arfa will be one of the best players in the league.

Is going to get up to SJP for a few games and to meet Cabaye.

Has recently died his hair.

[ChezGiven 0]

Only footballing retards would have entertained the idea of changing the back 4 in response to Wolves ascendancy in the second half. Lovenkrands didnt put a foot wrong either. People seem to be just connecting the substitutes with the second half performance from Wolves when in fact the cross for goal should have been cut out by Obertan or Simpson (on for 90 mins) and their disallowed goal came from the same position. Neither incident had anything to do with the subs. Easy to connect the two, you hardly need to have watched the match to do so.

[Barney 0]

Correct. The back post where both the crosses ended up was also a problem.

[Toonpack 8686]

Only footballing retards would have entertained the idea of changing the back 4 in response to Wolves ascendancy in the second half. Lovenkrands didnt put a foot wrong either. People seem to be just connecting the substitutes with the second half performance from Wolves when in fact the cross for goal should have been cut out by Obertan or Simpson (on for 90 mins) and their disallowed goal came from the same position. Neither incident had anything to do with the subs. Easy to connect the two, you hardly need to have watched the match to do so.

 

No mention of the chance Ba missed that would have killed the game either. Games ebb and flow, away fom home it's natural to be "under the cosh" for long periods, little things make a huge difference, like Ba's miss for example.

 

We were lucky at times, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

[Park Life 71]

Great result.

 

Pardew said in the post-match interview, paraphrasing, "We've got 15 points (from 7 games) and you don't get that without being a good side". And he's right, I'm starting to think that despite the easy start, Pardoo deserves some credit for getting the results against teams we would have been beaten by in the past. Normally we don't go away to relegation candidate sides and get the points, normally we don't play poorly and win. I might take some stick for this but Pardoo seems to know what he is doing.

 

Our performances are rarely perfect but we get results and thats what matters. Ba and Cabaye look like brilliant brilliant signings, Marveaux looks promising, Abeid and Santon seem promising, Obertan is shit but lets ignore that.

 

I don't think I'm getting carried away by suggesting we could very conceivably finish 7th/8th. Aside from the teams with CL hopes there aren't any teams that I would class as being any better than we are. Especially with us getting the points from the sides that we can consider worse than us theres no reason we can't finish ahead of the likes of Everton, Stoke, etc.

 

Overjoyed we're picking up points against fellow strugglers, but that's exactly what they all are, and we've ridden our luck to pick up those points.

delu

I find pardoo's approach after going 2 up very worrying. Bringing on the 2 slowest, worst players on our bench (i assume for their 'experience') was daft when there's players available who could have compounded the misery for wolves.

 

He Invited pressure onto a defense who have performed excellent so far this season, but in all hontesty have not come up against anyone with any killer instinct and as a result are flattered by conceding so few.

 

Totally agree.

 

Thing is if you point out the reality of the scenario a whole bunch of deludathons get on yer back.

[Park Life 71]

Only footballing retards would have entertained the idea of changing the back 4 in response to Wolves ascendancy in the second half. Lovenkrands didnt put a foot wrong either. People seem to be just connecting the substitutes with the second half performance from Wolves when in fact the cross for goal should have been cut out by Obertan or Simpson (on for 90 mins) and their disallowed goal came from the same position. Neither incident had anything to do with the subs. Easy to connect the two, you hardly need to have watched the match to do so.

 

No mention of the chance Ba missed that would have killed the game either. Games ebb and flow, away fom home it's natural to be "under the cosh" for long periods, little things make a huge difference, like Ba's miss for example.

 

We were lucky at times, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

 

We were lucky at times?

[ChezGiven 0]

Correct. The back post where both the crosses ended up was also a problem.

True but i was reading some criticism of Pardew for the subs elsewhere and i'm just dumbfounded by the sort of shite that gets written by people. If his subs could have prevented Wolves gaining the ball in wide positions (an idiotic idea) then yeah maybe Pardew could have done better. The reality is that we were away from home playing against a committed a half-decent side looking down the barrel of a 4th defeat on the bounce. They are going to get the ball there and they are going to try and knock it into a box with 4 or 5 players in. Its putting pressure on the ball out wide to make it more difficult to play a decent cross and as you say, back post defending. Where Guthrie and Lovenkrands come into that is not clear, apart from some vague idea that we would have held on to the ball more and thus prevented them working the ball wide and sending crosses in. Which is fucking stupid but nevermind.

Edited October 2, 2011 by ChezGiven

[PaddockLad 16510]

When Ba went off the ball stopped sticking up front. We lost possesion too easily after that. He didnt look injured or that tired tbh. And doing a bit of 'back to the goal' work isnt lovenkrands strong suit either. If the ball had stuck up top a bit more then we perhaps wouldnt have had to defend successive waves of Wolves attacks. Good point about crosses from our right. Bale will more than likely crucify Simpson a fortnight today.

[Papa Lazaru 0]

Correct. The back post where both the crosses ended up was also a problem.

True but i was reading some criticism of Pardew for the subs elsewhere and i'm just dumbfounded by the sort of shite that gets written by people. If his subs could have prevented Wolves gaining the ball in wide positions (an idiotic idea) then yeah maybe Pardew could have done better. The reality is that we were away from home playing against a committed a half-decent side looking down the barrel of a 4th defeat on the bounce. They are going to get the ball there and they are going to try and knock it into a box with 4 or 5 players in. Its putting pressure on the ball out wide to make it more difficult to play a decent cross and as you say, back post defending. Where Guthrie and Lovenkrands come into that is not clear, apart from some vague idea that we would have held on to the ball more and thus prevented them working the ball wide and sending crosses in. Which is fucking stupid but nevermind.

 

Without Ba to hold it up and with our midfield being overrun completely by Wolves you don't think somebody like Ben Arfa or Marveaux playing deep off the striker to ad to our midfield and actually get hold of the ball and start knocking a few passes around would have helped at all. Just because you wouldn't do it theres no need to call everyone fucking stupid, its a basic option to have used and nobody said Lovenkrands should stop the ball out wide that is the defenders job, but it was getting wide because we were not retaining any possession.

 

Theres nothing stupid away from home about putting an extra player in to help out a midfield being swamped and that's what people have said. The other thing they've said was Sammy Ameobi was a better than Lovenkrands as he's faster, more energetic and would occupy them on the break and give them something to worry about, again, nothing stupid about that.

 

He didn't have a big striker on the bench to try and hold it up or to help defend set pieces in the air if he thought that was needed therefore his options were help the midfield out or fast young striker to run them about a bit.

 

Doesn't change the fact either that he's done a cracking job so far with results as i'm not one of the people saying its all luck, but he's failed twice to stop our midfield being overrun (QPR the other) and people are going to comment on that.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Papa Lazaru

[ChezGiven 0]

The point, which you've missed is that a striker can not stop them getting the ball wide at some point and knocking crosses to the back post, whether it happens once and leads to the goal or 15 times and leads to a goal is neither here nor there. The one time it does lead to a goal its got fuck all to do with anyone but the right sided players and the left-back.

 

The stupidity comment relates to that specifically and to anyone entertaining the idea of bringing Santon on for the last 20 minutes yesterday.

[ChezGiven 0]

Lovenkrands was in our box defending at times too. Sammy looked naive when he came on against QPR and lost possession virtually every time he touched it because he looked to take players on. Tbh, not much between them from Pardew's perspective yesterday apart from experience.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13590]

No matter the situation or purpose, Lovenkrands is never a good option anyway.

[Papa Lazaru 0]

The point, which you've missed is that a striker can not stop them getting the ball wide at some point and knocking crosses to the back post, whether it happens once and leads to the goal or 15 times and leads to a goal is neither here nor there. The one time it does lead to a goal its got fuck all to do with anyone but the right sided players and the left-back.

 

The stupidity comment relates to that specifically and to anyone entertaining the idea of bringing Santon on for the last 20 minutes yesterday.

 

And that's where we disagree because i think Ben Arfa or Marveaux helping the midfield rather than Lovenkrands up front would have kept more possession which means Wolves getting the ball less, and getting it out wide less. So it does matter because Wolves like every team in the game do not score from every cross, so you reduce the number of crossess, you reduce the likelyhood they score, thats a pretty fair observation imo. I'm not guarenteeing it would stop them i'm saying i think its the best chance we had because they were on top (which is to be expected away) so we had to reduce their chances as best we could.

 

And i wouldn't have brought Santon on either! I would start him next game though, SPurs will be a tough test no doubt, but he's got to get up and running soon and i'd go for it personally.

[Lazarus 0]

Bale will more than likely crucify Simpson a fortnight today.

weve got 2 options there:

 

1) consider moving guti to the right side of midfield to help him out.

 

2) give santon a start on the right (with or without guti on the right also)

[ChezGiven 0]

The point, which you've missed is that a striker can not stop them getting the ball wide at some point and knocking crosses to the back post, whether it happens once and leads to the goal or 15 times and leads to a goal is neither here nor there. The one time it does lead to a goal its got fuck all to do with anyone but the right sided players and the left-back.

 

The stupidity comment relates to that specifically and to anyone entertaining the idea of bringing Santon on for the last 20 minutes yesterday.

 

And that's where we disagree because i think Ben Arfa or Marveaux helping the midfield rather than Lovenkrands up front would have kept more possession which means Wolves getting the ball less, and getting it out wide less. So it does matter because Wolves like every team in the game do not score from every cross, so you reduce the number of crossess, you reduce the likelyhood they score, thats a pretty fair observation imo. I'm not guarenteeing it would stop them i'm saying i think its the best chance we had because they were on top (which is to be expected away) so we had to reduce their chances as best we could.

 

And i wouldn't have brought Santon on either! I would start him next game though, SPurs will be a tough test no doubt, but he's got to get up and running soon and i'd go for it personally.

You're basically saying 'If Ba had stayed on, or Marveaux had come on instead of Lovenkrands, then Wolves would not have exerted the pressure they did'. For me that doesnt stand up, i would have preferred those players to come on too but in the context of the match itself, the season so far, the quality we have and they have (they can actually play at bit), that pressure was inevitable. Obertan and Simpson should have closed down better on their left, S Taylor should not have attempted the tackle in the box with the player moving away from goal. Player mistakes that could have cost 2 or 3 points yesterday that i'm struggling to relate in any way to the managers subs. Just different opinions, so fair enough.

 

Glad you agree about Santon, would have been massively counter-productive to bring him on. I just wonder if yesterday's performance is enough of an excuse for Pardew to change it round for Spurs.

 

Just as an aside, Sunday Times didnt think we were that lucky, said we were clearly the better side and should have been 3-0 up. I disagree obviously but its funny how neutrals see the game sometimes.

[Monroe Transfer 0]

Bale will more than likely crucify Simpson a fortnight today.

weve got 2 options there:

 

1) consider moving guti to the right side of midfield to help him out.

 

2) give santon a start on the right (with or without guti on the right also)

 

 

 

Bale has not impressed me much at all this season.

 

I think his performances in some high profile games have led to him being overrated a little. Don't get me wrong he's a great player.

[ChezGiven 0]

How they lined up

 

Mick McCarthy would like to think of himself as a no-nonsense, old-fashioned boss, and there was a whiff of straightforward, solid Yorkshireness about the way both Wolves and Newcastle set up in this one. No messing about with 4-3-3 or 3-4-1-2 or false nines with these two - they both began with relatively standard 4-4-2 formations. Honestly, it's like watching football in the eighties.

 

Both sides used fairly physical strike partnerships, supplied by traditional wingers in the shape of Jonas Gutierrez & Gabriel Obertan, and Stephen Hunt & Matt Jarvis. However, perhaps the most interesting battle would be in the centre of midfield - with the impressive partnership of Chiek Tiote and Yohan Cabaye up against Karl Henry and Jamie O'Hara, we were virtually guaranteed a fair few juicy scraps.

 

First half

 

Their formations might be the same, but the approaches of Newcastle and Wolves were very different. While McCarthy's men favour a fairly structured version of the old system, with Karl Henry sitting deep and allowing the rest to attack, Newcastle's approach is much more fluid. Tiote is nominally the holding midfielder, but the rest switch positions and roam almost where they see fit. Much of this is made possible by the massively impressive Yohan Cabaye, who broke forward from midfield through the middle, roved out to the right to try a few crosses and helped out at the back when required.

 

Cabaye also showed the value of a good set-piece taker, fizzing his corners into the box at the ever-dangerous just-above-head-height, whereas the hosts' corners tended to rather limply drift to the far post, not causing any damage at all. Indeed, Newcastle's first arrived via a whipped inswinger from the Frenchman, which combined with some truly ropey near-post marking, allowed Demba Ba to head in.

 

Another difference between the two sides is how they used their full-backs. Stephen Ward and Richard Stearman barely crossed the halfway line, such was their lack of adventure (perhaps slightly surprising given the former has spent time as a winger, and even occasionally as a striker), whereas Danny Simpson in particular spent much of the first half bombing up and down the right flank. This perhaps encouraged the fluid play of the rest - even if their teammates roamed, they could always be sure the side would have width.

 

The problem for Wolves is that, while this defensive caution is presumably designed to create a bit of defensive solidity, but it actually did nothing of the sort - Exhibit A for that one being Newcastle's second. Gutierrez picked the ball up on the left (after an appalling scythe by Karl Henry on Tiote), in the middle of three Wolves men, but shimmied out of trouble with embarrassing ease, then floated past Roger Johnson with a similarly casual air. The signing of Johnson was viewed as a coup by Wolves, but based on his showing on Saturday, his arrival hasn't exactly made Wolves watertight.

 

Second half

 

The second 45 began much as the first had ended, with Wolves scrabbling around for possession and Newcastle hitting them on the break with pace. Under Alan Pardew, Newcastle's success this season isn't based on anything particularly complicated - they are brilliantly organised at the back and defend, if you'll excuse the pundit's cliché, as 'a unit', they have arguably the best central midfield outside the top six and are quick on the counter. It's basics, but basics executed beautifully.

 

It was interesting that almost the biggest cheer of the day from the home fans came as Karl Henry was withdrawn. Henry's mains tasks as a sitting midfielder were to win possession and try to stymie those rapid counters, and he was singularly ineffective at both. McCarthy brought on Adlene Geudioura for Henry, and replaced the similarly ineffective Jarvis with Adam Hammill, presumably in an attempt to give his side a little more impetus and, for want of a better work, more oomph.

 

And, gradually, it worked. Wolves' primary tactic as the second half progressed seemed to be to cram the penalty area with as many players as possible, sling the ball into the area from wide, and hope for the best. Initially, the excellence of Newcastle's defending and Tim Krul's goalkeeping (a double save towards the end was particularly good) ensured this tactic didn't pay off, but it did contribute to them getting back into the game as time ran out.

 

Presumably because of this attempt to overwhelm them, Newcastle's defensive line dropped deeper and deeper, to the point that for the last ten minutes they were basically camped on the edge of their own area. It's incredible how often a bit of late pressure does this to professional football teams, with the psychological impact of an onslaught forcing the defending team to retreat and retreat until they're almost off the pitch. And it almost led to their demise - Steven Fletcher pulled a goal back with an unmarked far post header, then Kevin Doyle forced the ball in after a knock-back from Matt Jarvis, only for the linesman (sporting a rather fetching cap) to incorrectly rule the goal had gone out of play.

 

Conclusions

 

I'm sure everyone had a coach at school who constantly banged on about this being 'a simple game', when we all wanted to do lollipops and try outrageous shots from 35-yards. It sounded tiresome at the time, but sometimes basics are all that is needed to be successful. As stated, there's not a great deal complicated in Newcastle's system, but it's so perfectly carried out that the results keep coming. As long as they don't defend in such a panicked manner again, they will be fine.

 

One interesting point is where Hatem ben Arfa is going to fit in. Pardew has stated he doesn't believe Ben Arfa can play out wide, suggesting his position will be behind a main striker. However, with Ba and Leon Best performing as they are, is a change sensible? Actually, Ben Arfa's introduction might've helped Newcastle in this game - Peter Lovenkrands was brought on in place of Ba with around 20 minutes to go, but did little. Had Ben Arfa come on instead, he would've offered a pacier attacking outlet, and taken some of the pressure of the besieged defence.

 

For Wolves, perhaps this game will convince McCarthy that Henry is not worthy of an automatic place in the side. If he doesn't break up play, his role is redundant given the way he slows down possession when speed is required. Geudioura is hardly a silky genius, but he at least offered something more incisive. Panic buttons should not be pressed just yet (Wolves were denied a goal and a penalty by some curious decisions from the officials), but lessons must be learned from their late escape last season.

[Happy Face 29]

I thought we were better by far until their double chsnge,. The one change we made outside the dying minutes did nothing to counter ithe changing tide though...the Guthrie one even less so.