Obama once again showing America is Israel's lapdog.

[ewerk 31221]

Oui, me too, it's clear i'm not gonna budge my stance on the issue, it's clear Park Life won't either, it's also clear that noone else gives a shit and bickering between Newcastle United fans won't change anything... and it's basically becoming transparent.

 

Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Oui, me too, it's clear i'm not gonna budge my stance on the issue, it's clear Park Life won't either, it's also clear that noone else gives a shit and bickering between Newcastle United fans won't change anything... and it's basically becoming transparent.

 

Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides.

Why don't they ever show the good things that happen in the day? Oh yeah, I guess the news should just be a constant list of everything that takes place everywhere, except that'd take FOREVER!

[Park Life 71]

So just to clarify, noone can tell me about when Palestine has ever been a country? I've been called an idiot who knows nothing about the situation, and I can take that, personal slagging off at me for no reason is fine, not answering questions not so

I suppose you could argue it was one when it was a British Mandate which wasn't that long ago. In any case, Israel (in its current incarnation) is a modern invention, rather than being based on a previously existing country. I don't think the fact that a country hasn't existed before is, necessarily, an argument against its existence now or in the future though.

Yes, but the Jews are a mostly homogenous race, hence the stereotypes that people have which are surprisingly true a lot of the time, and that race originates from todays Israel. You've heard of being anti-Semitic? That means hating the Jews right? the Semites were people that lived in what is Israel, Arabia etc, and always had done, until the Muslims came and took over. Historically, it's their homeland, and the Muslims came much later, the thing is, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, and that's why it shouldn't be given sovereignty over Levantine lands.

Getting into who was there first is no real basis for deciding who should live where in the modern world anyway. Historically, it's both their homelands because they've both been there for many generations. Arguing there is no such thing as a Palestinian people ignores the current reality. I wasn't arguing against a Jewish homeland btw but it shouldn't be at the expense of the Muslims (and Christians) who also share that land. I don't have the answers or claim to have them, I just don't agree with your argument.

Yes, and there's heaps of Muslim nations, and 1 Jewish nation, which obviously should be built around Jerusalem. They're using Palestine as a way of completely defeating Israel, which has many Christians ans Muslims living happily within its borders, and takes care of the injured Palestinians who come to its hospitals etc. Propaganda is making Israel look evil, it's not perfect, and there's two sides to a story, some of the treatment of the "Palestinian" people are awful, but then the way they treat the Israeli's is awful too, the point is, two wrongs don't make a right, and no side of this is perfect

 

 

When you say 'Jewish homeland' where are you getting that? The bible?

 

 

"Ther original Jews were semetic tribes with a wide diaspora incorporating ancient Mesapotamia, parts of what is now Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

Their faith was pretty much 'mysticism' and they had trading links to Asia minor. They were often caravan bound and had strong trading and tribal traditons.

They 'arrived' in Jerusalem 14thC B.C. (inhabted at the time by the Canannites, Hittities and Philistines)and were given a beating by the Philistines."

[CleeToonFan 1]

So just to clarify, noone can tell me about when Palestine has ever been a country? I've been called an idiot who knows nothing about the situation, and I can take that, personal slagging off at me for no reason is fine, not answering questions not so

I suppose you could argue it was one when it was a British Mandate which wasn't that long ago. In any case, Israel (in its current incarnation) is a modern invention, rather than being based on a previously existing country. I don't think the fact that a country hasn't existed before is, necessarily, an argument against its existence now or in the future though.

Yes, but the Jews are a mostly homogenous race, hence the stereotypes that people have which are surprisingly true a lot of the time, and that race originates from todays Israel. You've heard of being anti-Semitic? That means hating the Jews right? the Semites were people that lived in what is Israel, Arabia etc, and always had done, until the Muslims came and took over. Historically, it's their homeland, and the Muslims came much later, the thing is, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, and that's why it shouldn't be given sovereignty over Levantine lands.

Getting into who was there first is no real basis for deciding who should live where in the modern world anyway. Historically, it's both their homelands because they've both been there for many generations. Arguing there is no such thing as a Palestinian people ignores the current reality. I wasn't arguing against a Jewish homeland btw but it shouldn't be at the expense of the Muslims (and Christians) who also share that land. I don't have the answers or claim to have them, I just don't agree with your argument.

Yes, and there's heaps of Muslim nations, and 1 Jewish nation, which obviously should be built around Jerusalem. They're using Palestine as a way of completely defeating Israel, which has many Christians ans Muslims living happily within its borders, and takes care of the injured Palestinians who come to its hospitals etc. Propaganda is making Israel look evil, it's not perfect, and there's two sides to a story, some of the treatment of the "Palestinian" people are awful, but then the way they treat the Israeli's is awful too, the point is, two wrongs don't make a right, and no side of this is perfect

 

 

When you say 'Jewish homeland' where are you getting that? The bible?

 

 

"Ther original Jews were semetic tribes with a wide diaspora incorporating ancient Mesapotamia, parts of what is now Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

Their faith was pretty much 'mysticism' and they had trading links to Asia minor. They were often caravan bound and had strong trading and tribal traditons.

They 'arrived' in Jerusalem 14thC B.C. (inhabted at the time by the Canannites, Hittities and Philistines)and were given a beating by the Philistines."

Aye you're right, but the point is they've been based around "that area" for so long, and Jerusalem means more to them than any other religion, maybe on a par with Christianity, so you can understand my meaning.

 

Look, don't see me as some wanker who's prejudicing against Muslims or Arabs etc etc, I just don't think they're handling the situation rightly, if there is to be a Palestinian homeland so be it, I just don't know why many are trying to claim Jerusalem.

 

In the best of situations, how would you work it?

[The Fish 10972]

So just to clarify, noone can tell me about when Palestine has ever been a country? I've been called an idiot who knows nothing about the situation, and I can take that, personal slagging off at me for no reason is fine, not answering questions not so

I suppose you could argue it was one when it was a British Mandate which wasn't that long ago. In any case, Israel (in its current incarnation) is a modern invention, rather than being based on a previously existing country. I don't think the fact that a country hasn't existed before is, necessarily, an argument against its existence now or in the future though.

Yes, but the Jews are a mostly homogenous race, hence the stereotypes that people have which are surprisingly true a lot of the time, and that race originates from todays Israel. You've heard of being anti-Semitic? That means hating the Jews right? the Semites were people that lived in what is Israel, Arabia etc, and always had done, until the Muslims came and took over. Historically, it's their homeland, and the Muslims came much later, the thing is, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, and that's why it shouldn't be given sovereignty over Levantine lands.

Getting into who was there first is no real basis for deciding who should live where in the modern world anyway. Historically, it's both their homelands because they've both been there for many generations. Arguing there is no such thing as a Palestinian people ignores the current reality. I wasn't arguing against a Jewish homeland btw but it shouldn't be at the expense of the Muslims (and Christians) who also share that land. I don't have the answers or claim to have them, I just don't agree with your argument.

Yes, and there's heaps of Muslim nations, and 1 Jewish nation, which obviously should be built around Jerusalem. They're using Palestine as a way of completely defeating Israel, which has many Christians ans Muslims living happily within its borders, and takes care of the injured Palestinians who come to its hospitals etc. Propaganda is making Israel look evil, it's not perfect, and there's two sides to a story, some of the treatment of the "Palestinian" people are awful, but then the way they treat the Israeli's is awful too, the point is, two wrongs don't make a right, and no side of this is perfect

 

 

When you say 'Jewish homeland' where are you getting that? The bible?

 

 

"Ther original Jews were semetic tribes with a wide diaspora incorporating ancient Mesapotamia, parts of what is now Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

Their faith was pretty much 'mysticism' and they had trading links to Asia minor. They were often caravan bound and had strong trading and tribal traditons.

They 'arrived' in Jerusalem 14thC B.C. (inhabted at the time by the Canannites, Hittities and Philistines)and were given a beating by the Philistines."

Aye you're right, but the point is they've been based around "that area" for so long, and Jerusalem means more to them than any other religion, maybe on a par with Christianity, so you can understand my meaning.

 

Look, don't see me as some wanker who's prejudicing against Muslims or Arabs etc etc, I just don't think they're handling the situation rightly, if there is to be a Palestinian homeland so be it, I just don't know why many are trying to claim Jerusalem.

 

In the best of situations, how would you work it?

Parky? Something like this I reckon

 

[Park Life 71]

So just to clarify, noone can tell me about when Palestine has ever been a country? I've been called an idiot who knows nothing about the situation, and I can take that, personal slagging off at me for no reason is fine, not answering questions not so

I suppose you could argue it was one when it was a British Mandate which wasn't that long ago. In any case, Israel (in its current incarnation) is a modern invention, rather than being based on a previously existing country. I don't think the fact that a country hasn't existed before is, necessarily, an argument against its existence now or in the future though.

Yes, but the Jews are a mostly homogenous race, hence the stereotypes that people have which are surprisingly true a lot of the time, and that race originates from todays Israel. You've heard of being anti-Semitic? That means hating the Jews right? the Semites were people that lived in what is Israel, Arabia etc, and always had done, until the Muslims came and took over. Historically, it's their homeland, and the Muslims came much later, the thing is, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, and that's why it shouldn't be given sovereignty over Levantine lands.

Getting into who was there first is no real basis for deciding who should live where in the modern world anyway. Historically, it's both their homelands because they've both been there for many generations. Arguing there is no such thing as a Palestinian people ignores the current reality. I wasn't arguing against a Jewish homeland btw but it shouldn't be at the expense of the Muslims (and Christians) who also share that land. I don't have the answers or claim to have them, I just don't agree with your argument.

Yes, and there's heaps of Muslim nations, and 1 Jewish nation, which obviously should be built around Jerusalem. They're using Palestine as a way of completely defeating Israel, which has many Christians ans Muslims living happily within its borders, and takes care of the injured Palestinians who come to its hospitals etc. Propaganda is making Israel look evil, it's not perfect, and there's two sides to a story, some of the treatment of the "Palestinian" people are awful, but then the way they treat the Israeli's is awful too, the point is, two wrongs don't make a right, and no side of this is perfect

 

 

When you say 'Jewish homeland' where are you getting that? The bible?

 

 

"Ther original Jews were semetic tribes with a wide diaspora incorporating ancient Mesapotamia, parts of what is now Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

Their faith was pretty much 'mysticism' and they had trading links to Asia minor. They were often caravan bound and had strong trading and tribal traditons.

They 'arrived' in Jerusalem 14thC B.C. (inhabted at the time by the Canannites, Hittities and Philistines)and were given a beating by the Philistines."

Aye you're right, but the point is they've been based around "that area" for so long, and Jerusalem means more to them than any other religion, maybe on a par with Christianity, so you can understand my meaning.

 

Look, don't see me as some wanker who's prejudicing against Muslims or Arabs etc etc, I just don't think they're handling the situation rightly, if there is to be a Palestinian homeland so be it, I just don't know why many are trying to claim Jerusalem.

 

In the best of situations, how would you work it?

 

Think the consensus is that the Palestinians will get East Jerusalem and Israel the West.

[sniffer 0]

Not that i could really give a rat's arse, but is that with or without the wall?

[Dr Gloom 22182]

Plenty of law abiding Palestinians live happily in Israel in peace, alongside the Jews and are probably far happier living in a democracy than they would be if they lived in Syria, Iran or one of the other Arab states, where basic human rights are at a minimum.

[Dr Gloom 22182]

Oui, me too, it's clear i'm not gonna budge my stance on the issue, it's clear Park Life won't either, it's also clear that noone else gives a shit and bickering between Newcastle United fans won't change anything... and it's basically becoming transparent.

 

Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides.

Why don't they ever show the good things that happen in the day? Oh yeah, I guess the news should just be a constant list of everything that takes place everywhere, except that'd take FOREVER!

 

People are quick to criticise America's pro- Israel propaganda and the Jewish lobby, and often with some justification. But the same critics rarely admit that the coverage in the UK, particularly on the beeb, is pro Palestinian and skewed strongly against Israel. Strange that.

[Billy Castell 0]

I can't help seeing those ultra right wing Jews who build settlements in the same way as I see the Nazis and their thing about killing/enslaving Poles etc. in the name of Lebensraum.

 

Anyhow, my new religion, Guntism, claims Newcastle as its most Holy city as it is where the great Lord Billy Whipple ascended to the great flying slipper that took him to heaven. So you can all leave the city now as you are not Guntists. Go on, skidadal, begone. Newcastle is now part of the Guntist State and any non-guntist can expect to have their houses bulldozed to make way for my personal swimming baths.

[Dr Gloom 22182]

The settlers are morons, no doubt. I find Palestinian people who blow themselves up in public places aiming only to kill israeli civilians equally troubling. Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

[Guest alex]

Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

Hardly needed pointing out though, did it?

[Dr Gloom 22182]

Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

Hardly needed pointing out though, did it?

 

i think it did, going on some of the comments in this thread

[Guest alex]

Should've added the caveat 'to most'. Bit ironic considering who said it as well. His view is hardly balanced either.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Should've added the caveat 'to most'. Bit ironic considering who said it as well. His view is hardly balanced either.

How not? I'm not Jewish or Israeli or anything, i've made my view based purely on what i've seen of the situation, besides, like I said, i'd be happy for the situation to be sorted out any way possible, it's just in the biased eyes of the world the Arabs will get more than they deserve.

[Happy Face 29]

The settlers are morons, no doubt. I find Palestinian people who blow themselves up in public places aiming only to kill israeli civilians equally troubling. Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

 

Yep.

 

One side reeks of desperation somewhat more than the other though, no.

[Dr Gloom 22182]

The settlers are morons, no doubt. I find Palestinian people who blow themselves up in public places aiming only to kill israeli civilians equally troubling. Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

 

Yep.

 

One side reeks of desperation somewhat more than the other though, no.

 

it's a desperate situation for those on both sides that want peace, the majority as it happens. it's the fundamentalists on both sides that are the problem.

[Park Life 71]

The full text of Mahmoud Abbas's UN address is available. The most powerful part is the second half of the speech, especially the Palestinian leader's plea:

 

"The time has come for our men, women and children to live normal lives, for them to be able to sleep without waiting for the worst that the next day will bring; for mothers to be assured that their children will return home without fear of suffering killing, arrest or humiliation; for students to be able to go to their schools and universities without checkpoints obstructing them.

 

 

The time has come for sick people to be able to reach hospitals normally, and for our farmers to be able to take care of their good land without fear of the occupation seizing the land and its water, which the wall prevents access to, or fear of the settlers, for whom settlements are being built on our land and who are uprooting and burning the olive trees that have existed for hundreds of years.

 

 

The time has come for the thousands of prisoners to be released from the prisons to return to their families and their children to become a part of building their homeland, for the freedom of which they have sacrificed."

[Happy Face 29]

The settlers are morons, no doubt. I find Palestinian people who blow themselves up in public places aiming only to kill israeli civilians equally troubling. Like clee says, there are two sides to this story.

 

Yep.

 

One side reeks of desperation somewhat more than the other though, no.

 

it's a desperate situation for those on both sides that want peace, the majority as it happens. it's the fundamentalists on both sides that are the problem.

 

its not two equal and opposing sides/arguments.

 

Both have a claim, but only one side is breaking international law by occupying territory illegally.

 

Both have their fundamentalists,, but only one side has them in office and controlling a glove puppet in the UN to win themselves a veto when they want it.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

6 of one and half dozen of the other imo: no likey, no lighty.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[Billy Castell 0]

This is a real question here, if I was to convert to a really extreme Orthodox brand of Judaism, could I claim Isreali nationality, and apply to live in one of those settlements even though I have no Jewish ancestry at all? Or because I am not 'ethically' Jewish would I be a second class Jew no matter how pious and strong my belief in Zionism and all that bollocks.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

This is a real question here, if I was to convert to a really extreme Orthodox brand of Judaism, could I claim Isreali nationality, and apply to live in one of those settlements even though I have no Jewish ancestry at all? Or because I am not 'ethically' Jewish would I be a second class Jew no matter how pious and strong my belief in Zionism and all that bollocks.

 

You have to go in for an appeals process in Israel to put your case forward which would mean going in front of a panel of around 30 jews, and you have 3 rounds to make your case. The first round is just based on appearance, then there is a video from your friends and family, and in the final round you have to demonstrate a unique skill or talent. If the jews don't like you they can turn the light off on their panel, it essentially operates on a 'no likey, no lightey' basis. If you have two or more jews remaining after the final round you can choose one and they will perform your bar mitzvah.

[CleeToonFan 1]

TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.

 

May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain ‘s great Middle East experts in their day.

I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field. I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.

I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel . That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.

Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I’m not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I’m speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a “Nazi” state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.

It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.

Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.

That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).

In Iran , the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran ? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa .

Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theaters.

In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.

It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.

Intelligent students thinking it’s better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke?

University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.

I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations. We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it’s clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.

Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya , Bahrain , Saudi Arabia , Yemen , and Iran . They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world’s freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai’s…. Need I go on?

The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott. I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side. Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and that is to protect them from one-sided argument.

They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930′s (which, sadly, there was not), don’t you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it?

Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence. It’s up to you to find out more.

Yours sincerely,

Denis MacEoin

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3982]

Jerusalem should be made an international protectorate under the UN with no side able to use it as a capital but with open access to all for religious purposes.

[Dolly Potter MD 0]

Should've added the caveat 'to most'. Bit ironic considering who said it as well. His view is hardly balanced either.

How not? I'm not Jewish or Israeli or anything, i've made my view based purely on what i've seen of the situation, besides, like I said, i'd be happy for the situation to be sorted out any way possible, it's just in the biased eyes of the world the Arabs will get more than they deserve.

 

Irgun-style? drive them all into the sea? The Likud Party (from it's origins, a coalition of the 'old' Zionist military/terror organisations) is nothing more than an elected gang of ultra-right Zionists, comprising of political heirs following on from the likes of Begin and Shamir.