Park Life 71 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) What has disturbed me in particular, is that 95% of Israelis back the government's action. This means that Netanyu isn't the problem, he's actually doing exactly what he was elected for. The problem is the way Israel views Palestine, and if you explored that, I'm certain you would see that the average Israeli would tell you this was necessary because Hamas wants to eradicate them. If Hamas stops with that, surely the situation can only improve? Hamas are at the very least providing Israel with every excuse it needs to carry out its aggression - this makes them irresponsible with the lives of their people. How many lives is that history worth, I wonder. There are large and growing sections of the Jewish diaspora that deplore the treatment of Palestine and the number inside Israel is not insignificant either. You have to understand that people don't bring about change, power does. When power wants change it happens overnight. In this instance the power is America...But the Yanks are pretty much ignorant (kept that way by the right wing media) of what is really going on in that part of the world I bet most couldn't fine Israel on the map ane would be pointing to the Bahamas or summink.. Edited July 31, 2014 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21783 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Well balanced analysis. Agree with most of that, but you must admit the Hamas rhetoric is nonsense. It has as much chance of wiping Israel as CSD has of playing a decent round of golf. of course it doesn't. but it's approach isn't strengthening its hands, i don't think. that said, israel's actions aren't going to achieve much beyond isolating itself in the international community and adding even more recruits to the hamas cause, intent on revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin 0 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I don't think Hamas is short of recruits, the logisitics to get those tunnels built is huge, they are a proper professional job. I think they might be trying to wipe out any future recruits before they become that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4099 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Im pretty sure Israel wants to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the map too. Their elected representatives have just about said as much many times over the years. In their case, the problem is that thanks to the US and its allies they've been given the capability to do it too, and they're doing it. The map of Palestinian territory disappearing over the years has been posted already. Its shocking. Hamas WANTS to wipe Israel out, we all know that it cannot until it gets the kind of backer that its opponent does. Israel HAS wiped most of Palestinian out and now its people too. There's no question of may or wants to here. They're doing it, and the whole world is watching, even if the superpowers are keeping quite. Its absolutely criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4099 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm aware of the history, but how does that help us now? How are we supposed to interpret history in order to save people's lives here? The history is irrelevant in terms of finding a solution. As I said earlier, either the solution is that both sides back down and restore normalised diplomatic relations, along with working towards a better future...or Israel just blows the almighty fuck out of anything and everything on the wrong side of the wall until there's nothing left to have diplomatic relations with. Much as it doesn't right the wrongs of the past, Hamas has a responsibility to its people now, not 60 or 70 years ago. They need to surrender for their own people's sake. Saying that doesn't make me pro-Israel, it makes me pro human life. How convenient. Steal from and terrorise a nation for 60 years, then just forget about and move forward. Great for Israel, not so much for the Palestinians. What sort of precedent does that set? History is never irrelevant. The kind of Palestinian 'state' Israel is said to have agreed to would have little or no sovereignty. You could blame Hamas for not agreeing to that but if I was them I'd tell them to shove off too. After 60 years of torture you offer them breadcrumbs and expect them to be grateful? They effectively dont have a choice. Israel knows that. The only way of ever achieving peace is provision of justice. We're freaking miles off that in Gaza. Fine, lets forget history. How about back off some of the land you've stolen as a good will gesture and then offer talks? But no, lets bomb their schools, hospitals and homes in about the few hundred kilometres of land they've got left and then blame them for being pissed? They're the ones sabotaging the peace process? FFS. Fact is, Israel will not stop until all Palestinians have somehow left or are dead. And all of us will be responsible for it. This is a conflict unlike any other in the world. The world superpowers have funded and backed the systematic eradication of a nation and the rest of us have watched silently. Its fucking shameful and it does my head in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm not saying I don't sympathise, or that I don't feel it's shameful. But at the end of the day, the most humane decision is the one that results in the smallest loss of life. Nationalism, patriotism, history - these things are not worth dying for, they are illusions. I guess I would argue that the people of Gaza are worth more than the state of Palestine. Not that I think for one second that Israel should be acting as it is. If you had to choose between the two here though, you're looking at losing both with a fight, or just one but saving lives. As you say, it's not like they can resist Israel without external intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 How convenient. Steal from and terrorise a nation for 60 years, then just forget about and move forward. Great for Israel, not so much for the Palestinians. What sort of precedent does that set? History is never irrelevant. The kind of Palestinian 'state' Israel is said to have agreed to would have little or no sovereignty. You could blame Hamas for not agreeing to that but if I was them I'd tell them to shove off too. After 60 years of torture you offer them breadcrumbs and expect them to be grateful? They effectively dont have a choice. Israel knows that. The only way of ever achieving peace is provision of justice. We're freaking miles off that in Gaza. Fine, lets forget history. How about back off some of the land you've stolen as a good will gesture and then offer talks? But no, lets bomb their schools, hospitals and homes in about the few hundred kilometres of land they've got left and then blame them for being pissed? They're the ones sabotaging the peace process? FFS. Fact is, Israel will not stop until all Palestinians have somehow left or are dead. And all of us will be responsible for it. This is a conflict unlike any other in the world. The world superpowers have funded and backed the systematic eradication of a nation and the rest of us have watched silently. Its fucking shameful and it does my head in. Top post bro. Israel will fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21783 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 What has disturbed me in particular, is that 95% of Israelis back the government's action. This means that Netanyu isn't the problem, he's actually doing exactly what he was elected for. The problem is the way Israel views Palestine, and if you explored that, I'm certain you would see that the average Israeli would tell you this was necessary because Hamas wants to eradicate them. If Hamas stops with that, surely the situation can only improve? Hamas are at the very least providing Israel with every excuse it needs to carry out its aggression - this makes them irresponsible with the lives of their people. How many lives is that history worth, I wonder. Where did that 95% figure come from? I'm surprised it's so high. Most Israelis I know are liberal, pro peace and disgusted by netanyahu's policies. Conversely, many Israelis support an aggressive response after years of living in fear from suicide bombers blowing up buses and militants firing rockets at civilian targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 From their own institute of democracy apparently: http://en.idi.org.il/ Not saying it's reliable but it was done by their leading universities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21204 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A figure of 90% was quoted last night on the news, must admit I found that disturbing. No hope of peace, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Honestly never thought it would be that high. Depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They can't just be bad people though, they must be seeing something we're not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 They can't just be bad people though, they must be seeing something we're not... Palestinian land and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4099 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A figure of 90% was quoted last night on the news, must admit I found that disturbing. No hope of peace, ever. Shocking but it explains a lot. People basically just waiting for their turn to die at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howay 12496 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1m5xrlBHRs Fox News "debate" lead by one of the biggest bellends on that "news station", oh dear . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin 0 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 People are talking about History not being forgotten or being forgotten, as it suits. I know the Exodus story is just a fable from the bible, which is a story book itself, but this is story has some basis in historical happenings. The convenient thing to forget is that the Arab nations and that includes Palestine as was have been trying to remove the Jews from wherever they have settled. The time since the Holocaust is a cough in this story. You don't believe in Allah, you must die Infidel, is a recurrent thread for the last couple of thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34762 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 People are talking about History not being forgotten or being forgotten, as it suits. I know the Exodus story is just a fable from the bible, which is a story book itself, but this is story has some basis in historical happenings. The convenient thing to forget is that the Arab nations and that includes Palestine as was have been trying to remove the Jews from wherever they have settled. The time since the Holocaust is a cough in this story. You don't believe in Allah, you must die Infidel, is a recurrent thread for the last couple of thousand years. Which 'historical happenings' are those btw? Also, it's a bit ironic mentioning the Holocaust (which was the most shameful espisode in a long history of Christian / European anti-semitism) in a post having a pop at Muslims for persecuting Jews, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin 0 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) I think you're missing my point. Its about the timescale and forgetting history. People are talking about the time since Israel was formed as the basis for the present conflict, just trying to highlight its been going on for a lot longer than that, these territories have been disputed for a lot longer than that, Jews and Arabs have been killing each other for a lot longer than 70 years. Maybe the Holocaust bit muddies it a bit, but that's why the state was formed, to give the Jews a homeland, because the arabs states wont let them live in peace and following the Holocaust the powers at the time felt some reparation was required. If you need to ask about Jews being persecuted in the middle east and dispute its a fact, then do some research. Edited August 1, 2014 by SteveAustin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34762 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think you're missing my point. Its about the timescale and forgetting history. People are talking about the time since Israel was formed as the basis for the present conflict, just trying to highlight its been going on for a lot longer than that, these territories have been disputed for a lot longer than that, Jews and Arabs have been killing each other for a lot longer than 70 years. Maybe the Holocaust bit muddies it a bit, but that's why the state was formed, to give the Jews a homeland, because the arabs states wont let them live in peace and following the Holocaust the powers at the time felt some reparation was required. If you need to ask about Jews being persecuted in the middle east and dispute its a fact, then do some research. Nothing I didn't already know but I'm still intrigued as to your claims about the historicity of Exodus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin 0 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think you're trying to take that out of context, as I said, missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34762 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think you're trying to take that out of context, as I said, missing the point. You said: "I know the Exodus story is just a fable from the bible, which is a story book itself, but this is story has some basis in historical happenings." My query was in direct relation to that so I don't see how I'm taking anything out of context. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say about this as it's not a claim that I've seen put forward within mainstream history or archaeology and it's something I have a passing interest in (although by no means am I an academic in the field or anything like that). If you're going to make claims then it's fair enough to expect to be called out on them. Can you back up what you said or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21783 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 They can't just be bad people though, they must be seeing something we're not... It's called living in fear. Years of bomb sirens going off, running to shelters, national service, buses and other civilian targets in towns being blown up by suicide bombers. I can see how people living with that would become reactionary. It's easy to pass comment who you're on the outside looking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21783 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) The ones that do support Netanyahu's actions here have let their fear get then better of them this time mind. Indefensible really. But it's the fear, I suppose, that changes people that might previously have been pro peace. I'm shocked by that 90 odd per cent figure though. Doesn't bode well for the future Edited August 1, 2014 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34762 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 It's called living in fear. Years of bomb sirens going off, running to shelters, national service, buses and other civilian targets in towns being blown up by suicide bombers. I can see how people living with that would become reactionary. It's easy to pass comment who you're on the outside looking in. I would imagine there's plenty on both sides unhappy with the actions of their leaders too. Plenty people in this country weren't exactly chuffed when Blair took us to war in Iraq. Millions marched against it but it's still viewed as the actions of this country by many foreigners who hate us as a result of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21783 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I would imagine there's plenty on both sides unhappy with the actions of their leaders too. Plenty people in this country weren't exactly chuffed when Blair took us to war in Iraq. Millions marched against it but it's still viewed as the actions of this country by many foreigners who hate us as a result of it. It's a lack of leadership on both sides - and from the US - that has resulted in this awful mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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