Gene_Clark 12 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 agree with spongebob, NJS & paddock lad, though you do realise you'll be regarded as "despicable cunts" for daring to suggest the things you do; passive acquiesence to the established order seems to be RR's philosophy. i recall the 80s as a decade marked by widespread despair among ordinary people; the current recession is no barrel of laughs, but it's nothing compared to the 80s. Thatcher, the Tories & their policies made people's lives a misery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I am fully aware that she implemented policies that had a wide ranging effect. Given that the country had been paralysed by the unions and was rapidly going down the shitter, I'd have expected nothing less from the head of the executive branch of the government. Beyond that, it's down to you to give some rational explanatoin as to how this mythical 'atmosphere' somehow caused SWFC to ignore the regulations that Thatcher's exectuive had beefed up, that caused the HSE/Sheffiled Council to ignore their failure, that caused a disaster one year despite the previous year with the same force and the same fans and the same 'atmosphere' leading to nothing. It's down to you to explain just how this magical force field made Duckenfield do pretty much everything wrong on the day, right up to opening Gate C, in a way that doesn't fail Sherlock Holme's belief about daft theories versus actual happenings. It's down to you to put something more than 'atmosphere' behind the proposed mechanism for how she both instigated and orchestrated the cover up which began within the hour, then influenced the coroner and judges after the report. It's down to you to explain why she would even need to do that given that it was her that commissioned Taylor, whose conclusions about the causes and the conspiracy have not been altered by the Hilsborough panel, certainly not toward a narrative where Thatcher comes out of it as some kind of master villain. The Taylor report being the document that first put the blame on all the people who, those that aren't dead, are the exact same ones who people are now trying to see prosecuted in light of the further evidence uncovered by the panel. I dont think anyone is saying that, what is on record is that when the cover up was exposed by the Taylor Report, she commneted that it was "depressingly familiar". But it still took 22 years for the fans to be exonerated by any UK governement, cheiefly because they victims and their families just didnt matter to her or her government at the time. And if she was aware there was a cover up and she took no action, isnt she complicit in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4821 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 agree with spongebob, NJS & paddock lad, though you do realise you'll be regarded as "despicable cunts" for daring to suggest the things you do; passive acquiesence to the established order seems to be RR's philosophy. i recall the 80s as a decade marked by widespread despair among ordinary people; the current recession is no barrel of laughs, but it's nothing compared to the 80s. Thatcher, the Tories & their policies made people's lives a misery See I dont recall this "widespread despair" that you refer to during the 80's. At the start of the 80's I was 15 and 25 by the end of it. During that time I left school with no meaningful qualifications and found my way on to a government YOP scheme (as most of my mates did). This allowed us to get money, buy motorbikes and live the good life for a while and eventually move from the scheme to full time employment. I then joined another company (A North East based retailer than boomed and expanded during the 80's in the North East. And this was a retailer selling furniture (a luxury product) to North East families. In 87 I got married, had a kid and bought a house. Of course money was tight but probably no different to most young couples setting their first home. And I came from Boldon, a pit village. Im not disputing that a lot of people had a shit time, but sometimes the way you and others describe it bears no resemblance to me living it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4821 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yup, life was brilliant in the late 70s. All those foreign holidays, all those new products, all that new housing, all that time off, all those jobs for life in the council or the myriad of nationalised industries. We'll put aside the fact that the start of the decade was a Tory one. It's a real shame that by the end it all came at the expense of the stagnation of the economy. It's a real shame that as the good times continued to roll way beyond the post war boom, so did inflation. It's a real shame that as the country apparently prospered (if you ignored the rapidly fluctuating prices and the increasingly shitty quality of British made products), the Labour government could do nothing to stop the unions worsening the outlook for an economy that had clearly been sliding into the relegation zone for years. It's a real shame that those times were marked with such left-wing selfishness that people like you cared more about downing tools for an inflation busting 5% pay riase, than they did about the fact that every outside observer was already writing out our death certificate. It's a real shame that even the lights going out or bombs going off or the most basket case political noises in a decade didn't wise you the fuck up. The decade ended with Brtain uncompetive and ungovernable. You wanted hard left socialism. What you created was Thatcher. You made it inevitable that the saner parts of the country would eventually call for some order. If you don't fucking like that, then why the hell didn't you fuck off and go and live in a country that continued to prosper using those same economic models of 1970s Britain. You could have gone and got a job in their coal mines or their ship yards or their million and one nationalised behemoths. Plenty emigrated during the winter of discontent that selfish scum like you foisted on us, they must have gone and set up a socialist paradise somewhere in their search for employment and stable food prices, no? You've got some brass neck moaning about hardships that you were apparenlty too stupid to see coming, let alone avert. Nope, like all good socialists, you took the only option available - let someone else clean up the mess and bitch like a woman about how they're now ruining your life. One of the best political posts Ive read on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 One of the best political posts Ive read on here. Making accusations about a poster on here he has no chance of ever backing up? how the living fuck does he,you, me or anyone know whether Gene is a member of the communist party? A fair few on here lean to the left, but being a communist is a fuckin long way from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31195 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Making accusations about a poster on here he has no chance of ever backing up? how the living fuck does he,you, me or anyone know whether Gene is a member of the communist party? A fair few on here lean to the left, but being a communist is a fuckin long way from that. I think he himself has stated that he used to be a member of the Communist party before it all fell apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4821 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Making accusations about a poster on here he has no chance of ever backing up? how the living fuck does he,you, me or anyone know whether Gene is a member of the communist party? A fair few on here lean to the left, but being a communist is a fuckin long way from that. I wasn't referring to the personal bit (as I haven't been following this discussion) just the view of 70's etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4411 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 See I dont recall this "widespread despair" that you refer to during the 80's. At the start of the 80's I was 15 and 25 by the end of it. During that time I left school with no meaningful qualifications and found my way on to a government YOP scheme (as most of my mates did). This allowed us to get money, buy motorbikes and live the good life for a while and eventually move from the scheme to full time employment. I then joined another company (A North East based retailer than boomed and expanded during the 80's in the North East. And this was a retailer selling furniture (a luxury product) to North East families. In 87 I got married, had a kid and bought a house. Of course money was tight but probably no different to most young couples setting their first home. And I came from Boldon, a pit village. Im not disputing that a lot of people had a shit time, but sometimes the way you and others describe it bears no resemblance to me living it. As I've said before it takes a complete and utter blind/deaf/ultra selfish bastard to have lived throught the 80s in ST and be unaffected. In fact it takes a poster boy for Tory bastardness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9927 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I think he himself has stated that he used to be a member of the Communist party before it all fell apart. I believe he classes himself as a marxist. Edited September 21, 2012 by Toonpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4411 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yup, life was brilliant in the late 70s. All those foreign holidays, all those new products, all that new housing, all that time off, all those jobs for life in the council or the myriad of nationalised industries. We'll put aside the fact that the start of the decade was a Tory one. It's a real shame that by the end it all came at the expense of the stagnation of the economy. It's a real shame that as the good times continued to roll way beyond the post war boom, so did inflation. It's a real shame that as the country apparently prospered (if you ignored the rapidly fluctuating prices and the increasingly shitty quality of British made products), the Labour government could do nothing to stop the unions worsening the outlook for an economy that had clearly been sliding into the relegation zone for years. It's a real shame that those times were marked with such left-wing selfishness that people like you cared more about downing tools for an inflation busting 5% pay riase, than they did about the fact that every outside observer was already writing out our death certificate. It's a real shame that even the lights going out or bombs going off or the most basket case political noises in a decade didn't wise you the fuck up. The decade ended with Brtain uncompetive and ungovernable. You wanted hard left socialism. What you created was Thatcher. You made it inevitable that the saner parts of the country would eventually call for some order. If you don't fucking like that, then why the hell didn't you fuck off and go and live in a country that continued to prosper using those same economic models of 1970s Britain. You could have gone and got a job in their coal mines or their ship yards or their million and one nationalised behemoths. Plenty emigrated during the winter of discontent that selfish scum like you foisted on us, they must have gone and set up a socialist paradise somewhere in their search for employment and stable food prices, no? You've got some brass neck moaning about hardships that you were apparenlty too stupid to see coming, let alone avert. Nope, like all good socialists, you took the only option available - let someone else clean up the mess and bitch like a woman about how they're now ruining your life. Tory propaganda - more days were lost to strikes in the 80s than in the 70s. The 70s "union stranglehold" also required a complicit management which is always overlooked. If you wanted a country that rejected Thatcherism I suppose you could have chosen Germany or France - they turned out well wothout the social divisions that still ruin this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9927 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) As I've said before it takes a complete and utter blind/deaf/ultra selfish bastard to have lived throught the 80s in ST and be unaffected. In fact it takes a poster boy for Tory bastardness. I must be some of the above then, first started work in 78, married and mortgaged in 81, kids mid/late 80's don't recall me or my mates etc going through any "special" brand of social hell tbh. Life can be tough at times whenever, you just get on with it. That said, the 80's did bring some pain as most of the music was utter wank. I do recall working with several wives of miners who's husbands, to a man from various pits, did not want to be on strike, but were threatened/scared into it by the threat of downright thuggery (based upon their comments/opinions at the time not mine, btw it was a fairly regular topic of conversation). My opinion of the miners strike (formed from conversations with those involved) is not the picture of the oppressed miner rising up en mass to fight injustice but of left wing activist lunacy becomming a snowball down a mountain sweeping all with it, however reluctant they were, and those who I actually knew of personally, were hugely reluctant. Said snowball was screaming out for a big fist to stop it, and it found one. IMO It's what Scargill etc really wanted, he just thought he would win. Edited September 21, 2012 by Toonpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4821 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 As I've said before it takes a complete and utter blind/deaf/ultra selfish bastard to have lived throught the 80s in ST and be unaffected. In fact it takes a poster boy for Tory bastardness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9927 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Tory propaganda - more days were lost to strikes in the 80s than in the 70s. The 70s "union stranglehold" also required a complicit management which is always overlooked. If you wanted a country that rejected Thatcherism I suppose you could have chosen Germany or France - they turned out well wothout the social divisions that still ruin this country. Piffle!! Social division is not a new 1970's/80's invention, it's embedded in our very history. Shit man it's totally natural, nature itself is violently hierarchical to the point of genocide. As for ruining this country, that's bollocks, try some third world states for social division and ruin. Whoever is "lowest of the low" in this country is a hell of a lot better off than some "mid-table" in other countries. I now expect some answer on the lines that the third world is the third world because that's our fault an all !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well I do feel a bit bad about insinuating he is a supporter of new Labour. The fact that Gene's a communist is beyond doubt, whatever means you choose to use to verify it, be that research or simple intutition. Me myself, I of course tap into the secret files maintained by the still extant Thatcher created secret police. Fair enough. Its my intiuition that you're fuckin selfish tory cockmonkey who twists what people post to suit the fucked up agenda you have. If Mrs Thatcher was such a good egg, why didnt she investigate a cover up shes on record to having known all about? its a pretty simple question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Well Britain has been by and large a socialist country for most of it's history. NHS, schools, social welfare, bailout banks (nationalised), farming (subsidised - as it is across the whole of europe. Vodaphone - tax breaks, free school meals, free education for the poor...Armaments industry - subsidised..Airbus - subsidised (in France and Germany as well - see Boeing legal action)..Govt grants across the board for everything right down to litter picking, pencils, civil service, kebabs, cake making, housing, BBC taxpayer money..The arts, poetry, Councils, training schemes... AND IF YOU LOOK AT FRANCE...They have been to the left of MARX where society and fair play is concerned... Show me this free market economy. Where is it??? Where on earth is it? WHERE THE FUCK IS IT?? Edited September 21, 2012 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Not complicit, just weak. Both Germany and France shifted to the right at the same time Thatcher came to power. Neither needed to fully embrace Thatcherism though as neither had been completly fucked in the late 1970s by their left. Germany implemented social and economic reform hand in hand, reflecting their pretty balanced political reality. France implemented reform, although given that they started from a position far to the left with the communists still influential, it's no surprise that they ended up still being left of Germany by the 80s even after reform, but with a consequentially weaker economy. Both faced unemployment and the other European crises of the time as we did, yet funnily enough neither were nearly bankrupted having not managed to implement any kind of economic reform whatsoever. It's telling that it was only disunity that stopped the French right actually taking over by the mid 80s. So, if the French can reform in that situation with communists still around, and the Germans can still improve their economy in it, it just shows how astonishingly pathetic the late 70s Labour government was in failing to do either due to their weakness in the face of the unions, leaving the turn to Thatcherism as its one true legacy. The Germans continue to heavily subsidise their manufacturing and energy sectors so much so that they are in trouble with the EU over it. Do youself a favour and read at least one book on Euro economies. I admire your gusto however misplaced it is. So called free market capitalism hasn't worked anywhere without massive intervention and taxpayer lolly. SHOW ME ONE PLACE IT HAS WORKED FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME....ONE PLACE. ONE. JUST ONE. America? 40% on foodstamps. In December 2008, the three major U.S. auto industry companies -- GM, Chrysler and Ford -- asked the government for a $34 billion bailout to avoid bankruptcy. The Big 3 stated that their demise would trigger 3 million layoffs within a year, plunging the economy further into recession. Housing fucked Banking fucked National debt 6 trillion Raging unemployment People fly to cuba to get their teeth done Marry Canadians to get healthcare Biggest prison pop on the planet and yes it's subsidised. Not in the top 20 on education healthcare fucked all fucko fucked. RIP the free market. Edited September 21, 2012 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The only thing that makes me giggle about Thatcha is that Marlboro sponsored her speaking tours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Fucking more reading less whining dipshit. If you'd been paying attention you'd know that the attempt by the police to deflect blame onto the fans had already been discovered by the Taylor report, and it was Thatcher who recommended the guy be prosecuted based on the findings (I know I know, it's so inconvinent that she didn't personally have the power to begin a prosecution herself, but that pesky English common law just keeps gettin her way don't it?) Do you even know anything about this subject? Or are you just going on the one single line out of a report of millions that was remotely negative to Thatcher (and which is only useful as propaganda as long the rest of the report and all of history besides is conveniently forgotten, while also conveniently dropping all earlier claims that she started the cover up in the first place). Am not stating she knew or encouraged a cover up, am saying she was advised there was one and did nowt. And she certainly didnt, as far as I cn make out, recommend prsecution of fuckin anybody. For the sake of clarity, this is what was said: And it added: "The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation." The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions. But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action. She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19574492 Using our old friend "intuition" I think we can deduece that she wanted, at the very least, to protect the SYP. From what though?...why weren't any charges brought against anyone from SYP again?...She knew alright, as has every subsequent PM tory or labour. She set the standard for others to follow though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9927 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Am not stating she knew or encouraged a cover up, am saying she was advised there was one and did nowt. And she certainly didnt, as far as I cn make out, recommend prsecution of fuckin anybody. For the sake of clarity, this is what was said: And it added: "The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation." The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions. But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action. She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T." http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-19574492 Using our old friend "intuition" I think we can deduece that she wanted, at the very least, to protect the SYP. From what though?...why weren't any charges brought against anyone from SYP again?...She knew alright, as has every subsequent PM tory or labour. She set the standard for others to follow though. In the bigger picture, a government cannot undermine the police publicly (however justified) the vast majority of who wouldn't deserve "devastating criticism". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 In the bigger picture, a government cannot undermine the police publicly (however justified) the vast majority of who wouldn't deserve "devastating criticism". Fair one TP, and we'll never know the real truth, but its not as one sided as some make out. The West Midlands Police were called in to investigate what happened on the day, the same WMP who had their serous crime squad disbanded due to large scale corruption the same year, the order for which must have been made at Home Secretary level, possibly through the aupsices of the WM Police Authority at the time. But senior officers from the disgraced WMSCS investigated the Hillsborough disaster...who gave that order?... http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/westmidlands.shtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17643 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Why are you using intuition? The Hilsborough panel gave you the truth. Is that not good enough for you? Thatcher supported the police's decision to dismiss Duckenfield and put him through discipliniary. He dodged that by retiriing on health grounds. It was the DDP's responsibility to prosecute Duckenfield, but with an accidental death verdict, he decided not to. So, unless you're really advocating a world where Thatcher can tell coroners, High Court judges and the DPP what to do, you're not deducing anything, you're flat out making shit up and basically saying that she did. Which if you need reminding, the panel found no evidence for. She didn't welcome devastating criticism of the police on her watch? Shock horror, who'd have thought it? Did she supress the report that laid out in detail that precise criticism? No, I don't believe she did. One decision is ordinary everyday politics, the sort engaged in by any and all prime minister this country ever had, the other is not. At the end of the day, if you're using this one comment to blame her for all the subsequent failures of others to prosecute the people responsible, then you look just that little bit desperate really. it was Thatcher who recommended the guy be prosecuted based on the findings who? Duckenfield? not enough evidence? who gathered the evidence for the inquest which would or wouldnt find whether wrongdoing had occured? and who authorised them being involved? why wasn't the perpostorous 1515 cut off point challenged by anyone bar the families? and some proof Thatcher recommended anyone to be prosecuted please. Otherwise what you post is just the rantings of some delusional toryboy who seems to have stumbled across some people who wont accept what theyre spoon fed and haven't since 1989. Funny that. Just as all this blows up you appear and post pro tory propaganda all over a thread about Hillsbourough. Good job am not a paranoid conspiracy theorist or I'd suggest youve actively searched the internet for stuff like this and are getting your kicks by trolling about it. I've acknowleged we'll never know for sure, but for me there are still major questions to be answered. Another one is what the fuck you're doing on here as you're pretty far removed from any NUFC supporter that I've ever come across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene_Clark 12 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think he himself has stated that he used to be a member of the Communist party before it all fell apart. no, i used to be a member of Militant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene_Clark 12 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yup, life was brilliant in the late 70s. All those foreign holidays, all those new products, all that new housing, all that time off, all those jobs for life in the council or the myriad of nationalised industries. We'll put aside the fact that the start of the decade was a Tory one. It's a real shame that by the end it all came at the expense of the stagnation of the economy. It's a real shame that as the good times continued to roll way beyond the post war boom, so did inflation. It's a real shame that as the country apparently prospered (if you ignored the rapidly fluctuating prices and the increasingly shitty quality of British made products), the Labour government could do nothing to stop the unions worsening the outlook for an economy that had clearly been sliding into the relegation zone for years. It's a real shame that those times were marked with such left-wing selfishness that people like you cared more about downing tools for an inflation busting 5% pay riase, than they did about the fact that every outside observer was already writing out our death certificate. It's a real shame that even the lights going out or bombs going off or the most basket case political noises in a decade didn't wise you the fuck up. The decade ended with Brtain uncompetive and ungovernable. You wanted hard left socialism. What you created was Thatcher. You made it inevitable that the saner parts of the country would eventually call for some order. If you don't fucking like that, then why the hell didn't you fuck off and go and live in a country that continued to prosper using those same economic models of 1970s Britain. You could have gone and got a job in their coal mines or their ship yards or their million and one nationalised behemoths. Plenty emigrated during the winter of discontent that selfish scum like you foisted on us, they must have gone and set up a socialist paradise somewhere in their search for employment and stable food prices, no? You've got some brass neck moaning about hardships that you were apparenlty too stupid to see coming, let alone avert. Nope, like all good socialists, you took the only option available - let someone else clean up the mess and bitch like a woman about how they're now ruining your life. i did all that? hey, not bad considering i was 14 when she won the election in 79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene_Clark 12 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I believe he classes himself as a marxist. indeed i do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene_Clark 12 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 i have to say Rocky Road is eloquent in his bombastic libertarianism. Christmas Tree appears to be the intellectual crash test dummy of this message board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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