Thatcher and Hillsborough

[Howmanheyman 33820]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/co...icle800222.html

 

 

Why Tory Hillsborough documents must be released before Thatcher dies - Brian Reade, The Mirror

 

I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve heard these past 22 years ask why the Hillsborough Families won’t let it lie.

Move on, you can’t bring back your loved ones, so let it go, they say.

 

I heard it again this week after a 140,00-strong petition compelled parliament to debate whether documents relating to Margaret Thatcher’s handling of the 1989 disaster should be released uncensored.

 

“What good will it do?” someone asked me. I’d like to explain.

 

A few years ago I asked Trevor Hicks if he thought he’d ever establish the truth about why he lost his two beautiful teenage daughters that day.

 

He told me he already had. He was in no doubt that they died through police incompetence, inadequate safety procedures, a non-existant emergency service response and a culture that had allowed society to view all football fans as dangerous scum and stick them in metal cages.

 

He sought another truth. Why the Establishment had wriggled out of all blame, smeared the fans as killers, lied about their actions and refused to take any responsibility for the deaths, thus denying the deceased justice and the bereaved closure.

 

And he said if he could be granted one wish before he died it would be to find out what was said between Margaret Thatcher and police chiefs when she visited the Leppings Lane terrace the day after the disaster.

 

Because someone in high places had told him that Thatcher decided it was imperative that the police were exonerated. That the consequences for a force she treated almost as her private army, would be immense if (as Lord Justice Taylor’s report later demanded) they took the rap for 96 deaths in their care.

 

And so the cover-up began with her press adviser Bernard Ingham briefing the media that the disaster had been caused by a “tanked-up mob”.

 

Three days later the Thatcher-supporting Sun’s infamous front-page about fans urinating on the dead and stealing from their pockets appeared after collusion between the Police Federation and a Tory MP. The story went round the world that drunken fans killed their own. And the truth was buried.

 

So for Trevor Hicks, the Thatcher documents, which constitute the minutes from that Sheffield meeting and other correspondence with her ministers, could be the smoking gun that proves a conspiracy which went right to the top of the Tory government.

 

Which is why it’s no surprise that the current one is fighting to stop those secret papers being made public despite the Information Commissioner demanding it be done.

 

If, as the families suspect, the Tories have something to hide, we need to find out what it is. Which is why MPs will demand next month that every document relating to Thatcher’s role be released in an “unrestricted, uncensored and unredacted” form.

 

If they win the day it won’t just be a great day for the 96 but for football. Because hers was the government that caged fans, that thought about bringing in electric fences, moats and ID cards and would willingly have killed the game.

 

If they win I don’t care whether the documents go straight into the public domain or to the independent Hillsborough panel. As someone lucky enough to survive that day though, I do have one wish. That if those papers contain the smoking gun, the trigger is pulled in public before Thatcher dies.

 

Because I’ve waited a long time to see that bullet fly.

 

I know a few will read this and not really give a fuck and maybe some will even think, 'Scousers moaning again', (or maybe I'm being harsh on some of TT's posters), anyway, when it comes down to football and Thatchers government then I always have an interest in reading about anything like this as when I was a young'un and going to games you quite often were treated like shit and having seen and read up on the way the Miners were battered by the Police and then demonised by Maggies biggest backer, (Murdoch and all his Editors, Mckenzie etc), then I think if there's something, somewhere, that can expose her party for what they were then I'm all for it. Anybody who's ever heard Bernard Ingham, (who was basically her go-between to the media), will be under no doubt that the 'pissing on the dead' and the generalisations that it was an unruly mob who caused all of the deaths would have been encouraged and welcomed by many of Thatchers Toadies in her party and acted on by the likes of Mckenzie.

 

When a Police force can stand and look on as people were clearly in serious trouble and, lets be honest, do fuck all at first, then it's about time it was officially recognised and it all stems from the contempt the football supporter was held in by her and her party. (Moynihan, her sports minister was great, he condemned any fan on a pitch for whatever reason, then ran on the pitch at a hockey game when GB won a medal at the Olympics). Anyway, as usual I ramble on and my patter wanders like a drunken man making his way home, but these bastards hated the working class and I hope any extra evidence that shows the Governments lack of care to get to the real reason and pinpoint those who could've done more to avert innocent deaths comes about.

[Guest alex]

You're absolutely spot on. I'm old enough to remember it and remember what it was like. I'd even go as far as to say that while they wouldn't have celebrated something like Heysel the Thatcher government (basically her ruling and all her toady ministers cowering in her presence) were more than happy to take the opportunity to put the boot into the national game. It also sickened me when you had the likes of John Major and David Mellor expressing their love of Chelsea once the game had become sanitised and rebranded enough for them to do so. Where the fuck were they when football fans needed them?

[Howmanheyman 33820]

Electric fences at Stamford Bridge for fuck sake. Good job there wasn't a disaster there then, eh? What would health and safety say about that?

[McFaul 35]

You're absolutely spot on. I'm old enough to remember it and remember what it was like. I'd even go as far as to say that while they wouldn't have celebrated something like Heysel the Thatcher government (basically her ruling and all her toady ministers cowering in her presence) were more than happy to take the opportunity to put the boot into the national game. It also sickened me when you had the likes of John Major and David Mellor expressing their love of Chelsea once the game had become sanitised and rebranded enough for them to do so. Where the fuck were they when football fans needed them?

Although he wasn't sports minister in 1985, Colin Moynihan was in 1988 when England had that riot in Dusseldorf a riot involving 5000 people which lasted 8 hours, the German authorities ALL to a man said the trouble was instigated and largely caused by the krauts and the dutch, yet Moynihan wanted England thrown out of the tournament and out of Italia 90 because of it. They have always wanted to demonise football fans as scum of the earth.

 

HMHM you're completely right in what you say, and in a country which has told the whole world for centuries, we are the last bastion in fairness, in openness, and anti-propganda ethics, then what Thatcher did with Hillsborough, The Miners Strike and other occurances of the time, manipulating the media as part of this, was absolutely no different to how the much scolded Soviet Union media function "TASS" was managed by the polit bureau and KGB.

[Guest alex]

If only Kevin's Granny's Brighton bomb had found its target.

[McFaul 35]

If only Kevin's Granny's Brighton bomb had found its target.

I wouldn't go that far like we'd have ended up with Kinnock who want us to get rid of all our nukes.

[Howmanheyman 33820]

You're absolutely spot on. I'm old enough to remember it and remember what it was like. I'd even go as far as to say that while they wouldn't have celebrated something like Heysel the Thatcher government (basically her ruling and all her toady ministers cowering in her presence) were more than happy to take the opportunity to put the boot into the national game. It also sickened me when you had the likes of John Major and David Mellor expressing their love of Chelsea once the game had become sanitised and rebranded enough for them to do so. Where the fuck were they when football fans needed them?

Although he wasn't sports minister in 1985, Colin Moynihan was in 1988 when England had that riot in Dusseldorf a riot involving 5000 people which lasted 8 hours, the German authorities ALL to a man said the trouble was instigated and largely caused by the krauts and the dutch, yet Moynihan wanted England thrown out of the tournament and out of Italia 90 because of it. They have always wanted to demonise football fans as scum of the earth.

 

HMHM you're completely right in what you say, and in a country which has told the whole world for centuries, we are the last bastion in fairness, in openness, and anti-propganda ethics, then what Thatcher did with Hillsborough, The Miners Strike and other occurances of the time, manipulating the media as part of this, was absolutely no different to how the much scolded Soviet Union media function "TASS" was managed by the polit bureau and KGB.

Unfortunately, Moynihan attended a Millwall v NUFC game where he witnessed a big window at the Den get smashed by supporters he stressed were not Millwall fans but NUFC supporters. You're spot on regarding his comments about the trouble in Germany, he and his party wanted us out of it, in fact they were pissed off the UEFA ban on English clubs didn't include the national side. Luton's chairman was a Tory MP so no surprise that the crawling bastard had his club ban away fans and introduce an ID card to get in. The same MP later called anyone on the dole a 'scrounger'.

[Guest alex]

Forgot about the Euro Championships and the bother (well, the spin put on it, anyway, I remember the bother at the time). The lack of investment in the game, especially the stadiums, back then was criminal really.

[Howmanheyman 33820]

When a policeman can watch and see people suffocating and be in a dilemna on how he should act then you have to question the way in which he was trained and how it was no doubt hammered into him how a supporter was to be controlled and treat.

[McFaul 35]

You're absolutely spot on. I'm old enough to remember it and remember what it was like. I'd even go as far as to say that while they wouldn't have celebrated something like Heysel the Thatcher government (basically her ruling and all her toady ministers cowering in her presence) were more than happy to take the opportunity to put the boot into the national game. It also sickened me when you had the likes of John Major and David Mellor expressing their love of Chelsea once the game had become sanitised and rebranded enough for them to do so. Where the fuck were they when football fans needed them?

Although he wasn't sports minister in 1985, Colin Moynihan was in 1988 when England had that riot in Dusseldorf a riot involving 5000 people which lasted 8 hours, the German authorities ALL to a man said the trouble was instigated and largely caused by the krauts and the dutch, yet Moynihan wanted England thrown out of the tournament and out of Italia 90 because of it. They have always wanted to demonise football fans as scum of the earth.

 

HMHM you're completely right in what you say, and in a country which has told the whole world for centuries, we are the last bastion in fairness, in openness, and anti-propganda ethics, then what Thatcher did with Hillsborough, The Miners Strike and other occurances of the time, manipulating the media as part of this, was absolutely no different to how the much scolded Soviet Union media function "TASS" was managed by the polit bureau and KGB.

Unfortunately, Moynihan attended a Millwall v NUFC game where he witnessed a big window at the Den get smashed by supporters he stressed were not Millwall fans but NUFC supporters. You're spot on regarding his comments about the trouble in Germany, he and his party wanted us out of it, in fact they were pissed off the UEFA ban on English clubs didn't include the national side. Luton's chairman was a Tory MP so no surprise that the crawling bastard had his club ban away fans and introduce an ID card to get in. The same MP later called anyone on the dole a 'scrounger'.

Aye, the Luton ban came a lot earlier though and was a result of this in 1985...

 

 

Also that Millwall v Newcastle incident I remember the game well we lost 4-0 was in our relegation season in 88, that wasn't hooliganism as such, I know a kid who was there when the window was smashed and we didn't go looking for Millwall, the toon fans were outside the ground after the game trying to get at the directors box to confront McKeag.

[McFaul 35]

When a policeman can watch and see people suffocating and be in a dilemna on how he should act then you have to question the way in which he was trained and how it was no doubt hammered into him how a supporter was to be controlled and treat.

Apparently in the 80's South Yorkshire police were known as the biggest cunts of all the forces in Britain. I saw it first hand at Brammal Lane in 1994 where they were chucking people out the back door of the terrace for jumping around doing the Blaydon Races.

[Howmanheyman 33820]

My mate got lifted at that game for going on the pitch, another bloke we were with jumped off a fence and fucked his back, he got stretchered around the peremiter of the pitch as wor end were singing 'if you're proud to be Geordie....' and as he was lying in agony still managed to clap his hands in time to the chant. Proper Walker Dan, that lad!

 

Also took a metal sign from the wall with a 'you are being watched by CCTV at Brammal Lane' on it back to a bar in Walkergate.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Howmanheyman

[McFaul 35]

My mate got lifted at that game for going on the pitch, another bloke we were with jumped off a fence and fucked his back, he got stretchered around the peremiter of the pitch as wor end were singing 'if you're proud to be Geordie....' and as he was lying in agony still managed to clap his hands in time to the chant. Proper Walker Dan, that lad!

 

The only good thing about The Mag ever.

[Craig 6700]

The bottom line in all of this is it could have happened to fans of any club - indeed it almost happened to us at WHL 2 years before Hillsborough.

 

The way football fans as a collective were considered and treated back in the late 80s was utterly disgraceful.

 

Regardless of your views of Liverpool FC or the people of Merseyside, something stinks to high heaven here and needs to be outed.

[Monkeys Fist 43060]

The annoying thing about this is that the rancid old bitch is too far down the road to La La Land to show any remorse.

 

 

Not that she would've any.

[Craig 6700]

The annoying thing about this is that the rancid old bitch is too far down the road to La La Land to show any remorse.

 

 

Not that she would've any.

 

Douggie Turd still seems to have all his faculties - or at least he did when he was on Newsnight the other week.

 

Wasn't he Home Secretary at the time? I seem to remember him (and that pint-sized dickhead Moynihan) accompanying Thatcher when she visited Hillsborough the following day.

[LeazesMag 0]

I've read the book by Brian Reade. He devotes quite a lot to Hillsborough. He puts forward some good points about it, and caused me to soften my view that I held before towards Liverpool supporters of the 1980's.

 

Agree with all the comments in this thread about Thatcher and Moynihan, all of them.

 

I used to travel up to NUFC home games in the early to mid 80's with the London Branch of the supporters club, we booked a carriage on the 9 o'clock train and got a huge discount. The bag stopped all of that, and we had to pay the full price.

 

Newcastle United supporters had nothing to do with Heysel or Hillsborough, and there was never any trouble on that train, ever. Yet, like all other supporters, we were all treated like scum, and cattle.

Edited September 19, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Guest alex]

The annoying thing about this is that the rancid old bitch is too far down the road to La La Land to show any remorse.

 

 

Not that she would've any.

 

Douggie Turd still seems to have all his faculties - or at least he did when he was on Newsnight the other week.

 

Wasn't he Home Secretary at the time? I seem to remember him (and that pint-sized dickhead Moynihan) accompanying Thatcher when she visited Hillsborough the following day.

I think he was, aye.

[Craig 6700]

Newcastle United supporters had nothing to do with Heysel or Hillsborough, and there was never any trouble on that train, ever. Yet, like all other supporters, we were all treated like scum, and cattle.

 

With all due respect I don't think there is a need to include the first part of that sentence tbh - particularly with regards to Hillsborough.

 

I haven't read one account of what happened in 1989 that, from the perspective of the football fan, didn't happen week-in, week-out at football grounds up and down the country. Fans went to the pub before the game, got pissed up arrived late at the ground and tried to get in before the ref blew his whistle.

 

Heysel is another story altogether, just happened to involve the same club.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

werent there a reporter or something saying " And we can see alot of liverpool fans relaxing on the pitch" or something similar?

[DEADMAN 0]

ok someone list on here the clubs who you most despise the fans mainly i know scumberland will be top but who else do you hate i know geordies hate cockneys

[Craig 6700]

ok someone list on here the clubs who you most despise the fans mainly i know scumberland will be top but who else do you hate i know geordies hate cockneys

 

It's not a case of who is and who isn't despised Deadman - it's about the collective 'football fan' who was failed the most basic of police care and then suffered the disgrace of seeing that level of ineptitude covered up by those who should know better.

 

And like I said it's irrelevant that it was Liverpool. It could have happened to any football fan (us included).

[DEADMAN 0]

hum yea supose ya right true

[McFaul 35]

werent there a reporter or something saying " And we can see alot of liverpool fans relaxing on the pitch" or something similar?

Is this another "wind up"?

[Lake Bells tits 1]

werent there a reporter or something saying " And we can see alot of liverpool fans relaxing on the pitch" or something similar?

Is this another "wind up"?

 

Actually, it was a recognized norwegian tv-reporter who said that come to think about it. His name is Thor Eggen, his exact words ( loosely translated) being: " fans are lying down elaxing out on the pitch"

Edited September 19, 2011 by Saltwater