Debt

[Guest alex]

He only fucking wrote it one page ago as well

[LeazesMag 0]

[Dolly Potter MD 0]

He did say that, aye (or words to that effect). Moving the goalposts tbh.

 

And I answered, haven't moved anything.

 

What exactly did I say about 1st September ??

 

I believe I said "it would show what Ashleys intentions were" either he'd be backing us or recouping. I have said I believe he is recouping. Is that "judgement" enough for you ??

 

and "his intentions" are what exactly, in your "new" judgement, regarding the small matter of success on the football pitch ?

 

What some of us have been telling you for ages perhaps ?

 

One thing TP is right about i think, is his character assessment of the bloke. Ashley the business maverick, who probably sees himself a pioneer of sorts. He'll run the business his way, give everybody the proverbial two-fingered salute, and display bugger-all in regard to respecting the club's heritage and most importantly the on-field football brand.

 

I hate to say this, but as football club owners go he's definitely a pioneer, for all the wrong reasons and motives - as I've alluded to in another thread. His long-term association with the club, and vice versa the club and SD, has little to do with creating a long standing football legacy to be proud of. This is not a symbiotic relationship between the club's football brand (and it's supporters whose main concerns results) and the commercial & financial interests of the club's owner. It's a relationship where there is no mutual benefit. I didn't give two hoot about Shepherd & The Halls dividends, the storage shed being rented out to the club. At least there was a balance, the business of football Vs the financial interests of board members, and that balance was tilted in favour of the former. Whereas now under Ashley, with his commercial interests or motive of wanting to gain control of what was at the time a boutique club available at a great/affordable price, it's a one way street - it's now a parasitic balance.

 

*I will be shocked if he sells up before 2020 tbh*, as i don't he's necessarily balancing the books & recouping his outlay in preparation of completing the final phase of an opportunistic smash and grab (profit making) type of business venture, in this equating to a destructive hit & run job on a boutique club with mass appeal. Either way Mike Ashley has his predecessors to thank. Some of these maligned figures restored faith and trust in the football brand after having previously seen it run down to a derelict state akin to a smack/needle injecting house.

 

*my contribution to the prediction thread. Will happily donate 25 quid to the SBR foundation if I'm wrong. This is not a bet btw mate.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Year Zero

[snakehips 0]

He did say that, aye (or words to that effect). Moving the goalposts tbh.

 

And I answered, haven't moved anything.

 

What exactly did I say about 1st September ??

 

I believe I said "it would show what Ashleys intentions were" either he'd be backing us or recouping. I have said I believe he is recouping. Is that "judgement" enough for you ??

 

and "his intentions" are what exactly, in your "new" judgement, regarding the small matter of success on the football pitch ?

 

What some of us have been telling you for ages perhaps ?

 

One thing TP is right about i think, is his character assessment of the bloke. Ashley the business maverick, who probably sees himself a pioneer of sorts. He'll run the business his way, give everybody the proverbial two-fingered salute, and display bugger-all in regard to respecting the club's heritage and most importantly the on-field football brand.

 

I hate to say this, but as football club owners go he's definitely a pioneer, for all the wrong reasons and motives - as I've alluded to in another thread. His long-term association with the club, and vice versa the club and SD, has little to do with creating a long standing football legacy to be proud of. This is not a symbiotic relationship between the club's football brand (and it's supporters whose main concerns results) and the commercial & financial interests of the club's owner. It's a relationship where there is no mutual benefit. I didn't give two hoot about Shepherd & The Halls dividends, the storage shed being rented out to the club. At least there was a balance, the business of football Vs the financial interests of board members, and that balance was tilted in favour of the former. Whereas now under Ashley, with his commercial interests or motive of wanting to gain control of what was at the time a boutique club available at a great/affordable price, it's a one way street - it's now a parasitic balance.

 

I will be shocked if he sells up before 2020 tbh, as i don't he's necessarily balancing the books & recouping his outlay in preparation of completing the final phase of an opportunistic smash and grab (profit making) type of business venture, in this equating to a destructive hit & run job on a boutique club with mass appeal. Either way Mike Ashley has his predecessors to thank, as they restored faith and trust in the football brand after having seen it run down to a derelict state akin to smack/needle injecting house.

 

My water tells me he's got health issues ahead, so things will be changing before that date.

 

Bookmark this.

 

[Guest alex]

YZ should take him for a night out, waterboarding and all.

[ChezGiven 0]

What is the debt servicing as part of turnover in the Everton model Chez?

Repayments at 2.8m a year which is not reducing the net debt, this is still rising.

 

[Toonpack 7394]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

[Gemmill 37732]

So mediocrity might be an unfortunate, but entirely unpredictable, outcome. But if it is Mike never meant for it to happen.

[ChezGiven 0]

As i've pointed out before, i dont think am that bothered whether the stated aim is 10th or 8th in the league. Anything above that requires either immediate investments of Stoke / Sunderland amounts with the accompanying caveats that neither have managed to get above 8th or a more long term youth / development policy.

 

Mediocrity is the name of the game when at least 6 clubs have revenues starting at 25% higher (and 4 clubs with more than double our income) and the ones around us are subsidised massively to adjust for any advantage we have from crowd size / match day income.

[Guest alex]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

You can spin it whichever way you want to be honest but to quote you, you said (in relation to the last window)

"it would show what Ashleys intentions were" either he'd be backing us or recouping. I have said I believe he is recouping."

So, he isn't backing us? That's absolutely implied there regardless of your attempts to wriggle out of it. By his not backing us, it's obvious mid-table status or mediocrity, as I put it, is the best he can hope for. So you're either arguing he's monumentally stupid, in hoping he can do better than that whilst spending nowt or you're ignoring the obvious now you've dug a hole for yourself.

[Guest alex]

As i've pointed out before, i dont think am that bothered whether the stated aim is 10th or 8th in the league. Anything above that requires either immediate investments of Stoke / Sunderland amounts with the accompanying caveats that neither have managed to get above 8th or a more long term youth / development policy.

 

Mediocrity is the name of the game when at least 6 clubs have revenues starting at 25% higher (and 4 clubs with more than double our income) and the ones around us are subsidised massively to adjust for any advantage we have from crowd size / match day income.

He'll fucking agree with you saying it though.

[Toonpack 7394]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

You can spin it whichever way you want to be honest but to quote you, you said (in relation to the last window)

"it would show what Ashleys intentions were" either he'd be backing us or recouping. I have said I believe he is recouping."

So, he isn't backing us? That's absolutely implied there regardless of your attempts to wriggle out of it. By his not backing us, it's obvious mid-table status or mediocrity, as I put it, is the best he can hope for. So you're either arguing he's monumentally stupid, in hoping he can do better than that whilst spending nowt or you're ignoring the obvious now you've dug a hole for yourself.

 

But he has backed us but that's now apparently stopped, that's why the debts grown but the club is profitable (so it appears),

 

Mid/upper mid-table is all anyone outside of about 4 clubs can aspire to. Within our own means we have more clout than most, and spending nowt isn't really true is it, spending more of his own money is where it stops. Do I think he should have chucked in another £20 Mill or so, absolutely. Do I comprehend why maybe he didn't, absolutely.

 

It's all really irrelevant, he's here and he aint going anywhere soon, so either get used to it or wrap it in. The constant wailing and gnashing of keyboards over what is, in the main, tirvia is beyond pathetic to be honest.

 

Yes he's fucked up again, he should have bought a striker (which is really the only substantive point of angst) and thus he should have chucked a few more Mill in, and all would have been great, he'd have won over a large section of fans, he patently doesn't care, it's his way or no way. That's the way it is.

 

Ashley is a grade A cunt, (which by the way, I have said all along) but why anyone would think it would/could have been better with no change of ownership is beyond my comprehension.

[Guest alex]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

[manc-mag 1]

I think he is playing the long game. I.e. keep the club ticking over by breaking even and even possibly turning a small profit until the time is right to sell. No great mystery and not a lot to get excited about in the foreseeable (unless it goes tits up).

 

Basically, aye.

 

 

 

oh dear. When I said this ages ago, you said it was bollocks [words to that effect].

 

 

No, if you read what I wrote (bit you've deleted of course) you'll see I'm saying he's only really arsed to make the club self-sustaining. He's not arsed beyond that at all because he knows he'd have to risk money he'll not see back/back in sufficient quantities to make him bothered. I've said that's been Ashley's game since the recession hit. It's you that's changed your assessment of Ashley's motivations over time if you'll recall. It was shown up very recently in fact-you'd said he was 'running NUFC according to the Sports Direct penny pinching model from day one'/'going to beat the Champions League achievements to date' at different intervals. Good one on forgetting that embarrassment already btw you clot.

[Toonpack 7394]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

[Gemmill 37732]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

Is that not a bit like me aiming to impress my lass, but doing it "my way" by sending her photos of me shagging her mother?

[manc-mag 1]

pics or STFU

[Toonpack 7394]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

Is that not a bit like me aiming to impress my lass, but doing it "my way" by sending her photos of me shagging her mother?

 

What do you think the "aim" should be (not involving female parents)

[Gemmill 37732]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

Is that not a bit like me aiming to impress my lass, but doing it "my way" by sending her photos of me shagging her mother?

 

What do you think the "aim" should be (not involving female parents)

The point I'm making is that his actions don't support achieving that aim. Champion's League ffs.

[LeazesMag 0]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

 

so it's taken you 4 years to arrive at soopa Mike's masterplan, despite others telling you far earlier ? Is this what your verdict is, now that September 1st is past, or are you giving him until 2015, for instance ? You do realise that this is a football club people are supposed to supporting, and they are hoping they will win on the pitch, and will judge success on those terms, and choose to either continue putting money into it or withdraw altogether if the team stops winning, rather than shareholders hoping to see a profit courtesy of far East sweat shops and a market who will buy the product regardless ?

 

I'm trying to explain how football is not a "normal" high street business here.....which you and some others appear to continue to think is the case.

 

You said that on Sept 1st, you would "judge" Mike Ashley [presumably in terms of how much he wanted success on the pitch] and that would depend on whether or not he spent the cash for Carroll.

 

I take it this is your "final verdict" then ? What a pity you've wasted all that time going around in circles, for all these months, if you now accept the ambition to have success on the pitch is not the primary aim. You could have just agreed with people like myself, Alex, PP and HF ages and ages ago.

[Toonpack 7394]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

 

so it's taken you 4 years to arrive at soopa Mike's masterplan, despite others telling you far earlier ? Is this what your verdict is, now that September 1st is past, or are you giving him until 2015, for instance ? You do realise that this is a football club people are supposed to supporting, and they are hoping they will win on the pitch, and will judge success on those terms, and choose to either continue putting money into it or withdraw altogether if the team stops winning, rather than shareholders hoping to see a profit courtesy of far East sweat shops and a market who will buy the product regardless ?

 

I'm trying to explain how football is not a "normal" high street business here.....which you and some others appear to continue to think is the case.

 

You said that on Sept 1st, you would "judge" Mike Ashley [presumably in terms of how much he wanted success on the pitch] and that would depend on whether or not he spent the cash for Carroll.

 

I take it this is your "final verdict" then ? What a pity you've wasted all that time going around in circles, for all these months, if you now accept the ambition to have success on the pitch is not the primary aim. You could have just agreed with people like myself, Alex, PP and HF ages and ages ago.

 

I can't agree with you ever because the situation now, no matter how bleak, is inestimably better than it would have been had there been no ownership change. Success "on the pitch" was never comming back under the previous ownership because we didn't had a pot to piss in.

 

Could have been SO much better if we'd got a brighter billionaire, but at least we got one.

[peasepud 59]

Most of us were already saying that tbh, TP. Glad we\'re all on the same page though. Seems Leazes was right all along, eh? Be nice of you if you were able to admit that

 

Hardly, Ashley for all his faults is inestimably better than the last lot.

 

He still hasn\'t pocketed his £52 Million \"profit\"

[LeazesMag 0]

You can put a 100m into the club or you can put 100m into the team. I was in favour of the latter when MA took over. I haven't changed my mind.

I don't expect him to throw endless amounts of cash in order to make us into title contenders but it hardly takes a genius to work out how little vision the man has with regard to taking the team (a little old-fashioned I know but that's the bit I care most about) forward. As HF pointed out, KK could've worked wonders with the money spunked on paying for relegation. In fact he'd have worked wonders with the Carroll money too. Mediocrity is his aim and, quite frankly, I despise the bloke for it.

 

I rather think doing it "his way" is the aim and fuck everyone else. That may or may not lead to mediocrity, but I doubt mediocrity is indeed his aim.

Haven't you already conceded he's concerned with recouping money as opposed to taking the team forward in a footballing sense? Realistically you're looking at mediocrity (at best) in that scenario.

 

I didn't say that at all.

 

He appears to be recouping, that's seems to be a fact. He should have bought a striker, in my opinion, in his opinion he's doing it his way, I still doubt his aim is mediocrity. Mediocrity may well be the result, but it's not a given.

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, whatever he does, it's all a great evil masterplan to piss people off whilst he sits back and chuckles with Decka curled up on his lap like Blofeld's cat.

 

so it's taken you 4 years to arrive at soopa Mike's masterplan, despite others telling you far earlier ? Is this what your verdict is, now that September 1st is past, or are you giving him until 2015, for instance ? You do realise that this is a football club people are supposed to supporting, and they are hoping they will win on the pitch, and will judge success on those terms, and choose to either continue putting money into it or withdraw altogether if the team stops winning, rather than shareholders hoping to see a profit courtesy of far East sweat shops and a market who will buy the product regardless ?

 

I'm trying to explain how football is not a "normal" high street business here.....which you and some others appear to continue to think is the case.

 

You said that on Sept 1st, you would "judge" Mike Ashley [presumably in terms of how much he wanted success on the pitch] and that would depend on whether or not he spent the cash for Carroll.

 

I take it this is your "final verdict" then ? What a pity you've wasted all that time going around in circles, for all these months, if you now accept the ambition to have success on the pitch is not the primary aim. You could have just agreed with people like myself, Alex, PP and HF ages and ages ago.

 

I can't agree with you ever because the situation now, no matter how bleak, is inestimably better than it would have been had there been no ownership change. Success "on the pitch" was never comming back under the previous ownership because we didn't had a pot to piss in.

 

Could have been SO much better if we'd got a brighter billionaire, but at least we got one.

 

rubbish.

 

You will always have a chance of success if you keep your best players and at least attempt to be successful.

 

However, if you sell your best players, and pocket the cash, you have no chance at all.

[Guest alex]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

No, I wasn't asking you anything. I said mediocrity was his aim, which you disagreed with despite also saying he was recouping money rather than backing the side (i.e. not interested in making progress on the field in the conventional sense). I'm not really interested what you think about his intentions tbh as you seem to be at odds with yourself. I was just pointed out the obvious fallacy of your argument.

[Toonpack 7394]

Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored.

 

Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means".

No, I wasn't asking you anything. I said mediocrity was his aim, which you disagreed with despite also saying he was recouping money rather than backing the side (i.e. not interested in making progress on the field in the conventional sense). I'm not really interested what you think about his intentions tbh as you seem to be at odds with yourself. I was just pointed out the obvious fallacy of your argument.

 

He is not (patently obvious now) prepared to throw his own cash at it any more, the club it appears must be self financing (and within that very possibly repay his exposure over time). The evidence would seem to show that throwing money at it (at under Man City levels) doesn't work (a'la Villa. Sunlun) so he's doing it "his way".

 

I doubt his aim is mediocrity, irrespective of method, mega-succesfull people just don't see anything that way.