ewerk 31228 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored. Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means". Did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored. Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means". No, I wasn't asking you anything. I said mediocrity was his aim, which you disagreed with despite also saying he was recouping money rather than backing the side (i.e. not interested in making progress on the field in the conventional sense). I'm not really interested what you think about his intentions tbh as you seem to be at odds with yourself. I was just pointed out the obvious fallacy of your argument. He is not (patently obvious now) prepared to throw his own cash at it any more, the club it appears must be self financing (and within that very possibly repay his exposure over time). The evidence would seem to show that throwing money at it (at under Man City levels) doesn't work (a'la Villa. Sunlun) so he's doing it "his way". I doubt his aim is mediocrity, irrespective of method, mega-succesfull people just don't see anything that way. I think you're talking bollocks (and you probably know you are tbh) but it's all opinions as to what his 'aim' is, given only he really knows. The outcome of his methods is almost certainly mediocrity (at best) though. Therefore I don't think it's too massive a leap to suggest that's his aim. What you're suggesting, i.e. he's hoping for success on his terms (i.e. spending fuck all) is far less realistic imo. Even I credit him with more of a clue about running a football club than that. Edited September 16, 2011 by alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Got literally nothing to do with the point I was making about where he's aiming the club at tbh. Nicely ignored. Where do I think he's aiming the club ? Is that what you're asking. If so I think he's aiming for above 10th "his way" with maybe a trip into Europe or two or maybe even a'la Spurs into the CL, after all they managed it "within their means". No, I wasn't asking you anything. I said mediocrity was his aim, which you disagreed with despite also saying he was recouping money rather than backing the side (i.e. not interested in making progress on the field in the conventional sense). I'm not really interested what you think about his intentions tbh as you seem to be at odds with yourself. I was just pointed out the obvious fallacy of your argument. He is not (patently obvious now) prepared to throw his own cash at it any more, the club it appears must be self financing (and within that very possibly repay his exposure over time). The evidence would seem to show that throwing money at it (at under Man City levels) doesn't work (a'la Villa. Sunlun) so he's doing it "his way". I doubt his aim is mediocrity, irrespective of method, mega-succesfull people just don't see anything that way. I think you're talking bollocks (and you probably know you are tbh) but it's all opinions as to what his 'aim' is, given only he really knows. The outcome of his methods is almost certainly mediocrity (at best) though. Therefore I don't think it's too massive a leap to suggest that's his aim. What you're suggesting, i.e. he's hoping for success on his terms (i.e. spending fuck all) is far less realistic imo. Even I credit him with more of a clue about running a football club than that. Yes it is only opinion. In reality, mediocrity is all that's left outside of the top 4 (maybe even top 2-3), it's a likely outcome and nothing but silly money would possibly change that. But that's footballs problem. Maybe he's just being realistic. We're not spending "fuck all" though, we are (I believe) spending what the club can afford (and not a penny more it seems) given our "size" that gives us an advantage over a fair number of clubs (notwithstanding the amount he recoups, obviously). The Prem is basically a tiny layer of cream floating on a pile of shit of various density. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Glad you're now agreeing that's his aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Glad you're now agreeing that's his aim S'not like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 When you look at the money Ashley has spunked on us and compare it to other investors he's had terrible value for money... Abramovich - £700m - titles/champions league Mansour - £700m - champions league Fenway Group - £300m - Title talk, cetainly europe. Ashley - £280m - relegation Kroenke - £200m - Champions league Glazers - £140m - Titles and champions league finals Joe Lewis - £100m - champions league Ellis Short - £100m - Middle PL Lerner - £100m - Middle PL Ridiculous to suggest he's done a good job with his money and we should begrateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 When you look at the money Ashley has spunked on us and compare it to other investors he's had terrible value for money... Abramovich - £700m - titles/champions league Mansour - £700m - champions league Fenway Group - £300m - Title talk, cetainly europe. Ashley - £280m - relegation Kroenke - £200m - Champions league Glazers - £140m - Titles and champions league finals Joe Lewis - £100m - champions league Ellis Short - £100m - Middle PL Lerner - £100m - Middle PL Ridiculous to suggest he's done a good job with his money and we should begrateful. Think you have to weight it against turnover for it to make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 When you look at the money Ashley has spunked on us and compare it to other investors he's had terrible value for money... Abramovich - £700m - titles/champions league Mansour - £700m - champions league Fenway Group - £300m - Title talk, cetainly europe. Ashley - £280m - relegation Kroenke - £200m - Champions league Glazers - £140m - Titles and champions league finals Joe Lewis - £100m - champions league Ellis Short - £100m - Middle PL Lerner - £100m - Middle PL Ridiculous to suggest he's done a good job with his money and we should begrateful. Think you have to weight it against turnover for it to make sense. He's spent almost 3 times as much as the villa and Spurs owners...and as CG said in the other thread, our turnover should sit right between theres this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) When you look at the money Ashley has spunked on us and compare it to other investors he's had terrible value for money... Abramovich - £700m - titles/champions league Mansour - £700m - champions league Fenway Group - £300m - Title talk, cetainly europe. Ashley - £280m - relegation Kroenke - £200m - Champions league Glazers - £140m - Titles and champions league finals Joe Lewis - £100m - champions league Ellis Short - £100m - Middle PL Lerner - £100m - Middle PL Ridiculous to suggest he's done a good job with his money and we should begrateful. Think you have to weight it against turnover for it to make sense. He's spent almost 3 times as much as the villa and Spurs owners...and as CG said in the other thread, our turnover should sit right between theres this year. Yeah but our debt and squad value counted against us. Work something else out using felt tips man... + Spurs and Liv still need a new stadium. So you can add 50m each debt to them an all... Edited September 16, 2011 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 When you look at the money Ashley has spunked on us and compare it to other investors he's had terrible value for money... Abramovich - £700m - titles/champions league Mansour - £700m - champions league Fenway Group - £300m - Title talk, cetainly europe. Ashley - £280m - relegation Kroenke - £200m - Champions league Glazers - £140m - Titles and champions league finals Joe Lewis - £100m - champions league Ellis Short - £100m - Middle PL Lerner - £100m - Middle PL Ridiculous to suggest he's done a good job with his money and we should begrateful. Think you have to weight it against turnover for it to make sense. He's spent almost 3 times as much as the villa and Spurs owners...and as CG said in the other thread, our turnover should sit right between theres this year. Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). Spurs, Lewis' contribution is as shareholder of Enic (who own the club), his contribution is solely in purchase of shares (of ENIC), the club itself has financed it's football activities fro operating profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. I agree, about £14 Mill a year. Seriously though, for about the same amount thrown in, better value for what, in football terms, fuck all is what. Two more points than us last season, scored less goals and conceded more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. I agree, about £14 Mill a year. Seriously though, for about the same amount thrown in, better value for what, in football terms, fuck all is what. Two more points than us last season, scored less goals and conceded more. Relegation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. I agree, about £14 Mill a year. Seriously though, for about the same amount thrown in, better value for what, in football terms, fuck all is what. Two more points than us last season, scored less goals and conceded more. Relegation That brought lots of wins and enjoyment, and then a 6-0 thrashing of Lerners team. It's only the relegation cost that makes the "spend" at NUFC marginally greater than Lerners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. I agree, about £14 Mill a year. Seriously though, for about the same amount thrown in, better value for what, in football terms, fuck all is what. Two more points than us last season, scored less goals and conceded more. Relegation That brought lots of wins and enjoyment, and then a 6-0 thrashing of Lerners team. It's only the relegation cost that makes the "spend" at NUFC marginally greater than Lerners. Let's hope to be relegated this year too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9987 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Lerner was in for the thick end of £270 Mill at the end of 2009, £63 Mill purchase, £108m equity and £97m in loans (for which he charges LIBOR + 2% (about £6Mill) and management fees of circa £8Mill a year = around 15% of their turnover). I was only ball parking from memory. Checked up and found the amount in a guardian story from 2010... While the Glazers were earlier this month releasing their 322-page prospectus to raise a £500m debt on United for the third time since their 2005 takeover, Aston Villa were filing an official document at Companies House setting out the total of Lerner's investment. In the three and a half years between his takeover and 14 October last year, Lerner, via his company registered in Berea, Ohio, has invested £138.6m in Aston Villa http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn...la-randy-lerner That's probably his loan amount, the holding company is Reform Aquisitions Ltd (or was) and it has 5 sub companies (all to do with Villa), one of the five being AVFC Ltd. Whether or not that's the case. Still got better value. I agree, about £14 Mill a year. Seriously though, for about the same amount thrown in, better value for what, in football terms, fuck all is what. Two more points than us last season, scored less goals and conceded more. Relegation That brought lots of wins and enjoyment, and then a 6-0 thrashing of Lerners team. It's only the relegation cost that makes the "spend" at NUFC marginally greater than Lerners. Let's hope to be relegated this year too Doubt it, we'll be circa Villa in value for money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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