News of the World

[NJS 4411]

With Greece it's too early days to judge. With us stimulating growth and slightly reducing that fucking huge deficit Labour decided would be a good idea. "Let's get all those tramps and wankers and give them more money than minimum wage on the dole, then they can have more kids and cans, brilliant idea!"

 

The defecit was caused by falling revenues caused by a recession whose global roots were in the US - yet another one falling for the media propaganda - are you CT's son?

 

Lol, I just said that!

 

It's quite refreshing to see such wisdom in one so young.

 

I long for a return to the days when student wankers used ill-formed left-wing arguments rather than Tory shite but I suppose that's "progress".

[Guest alex]

The Labour tramps comment sort of rules out any sense of objective perspective on your part like. There were virtually no strikes under the last Labour government btw

Of course not, why would there need to be when we're borrowing that much money that everyone thinks life will be perfect? Let's put too much money into the civil service and then when the shit hits the fan we can blame everyone else, genius! No offence to any civil servants btw, it's not your fault you got such an easy ride.

 

 

It's like finding a long lost son!

He at least puts together a reasoned argument though.

Wahay! Anyway, we're all pissing into the wind here. Out of all of this, my main point is that i'd rather GDP grow slower and the deficit to be reduced more than a rapidly rising GDP and also a rapidly rising deficit.

http://pragmaticgovernment.blogspot.com/20...-vs-growth.html Just found this online and it pretty much agrees with what I say. Neither party is perfect as it shows, and as an outsider to both parties I think I can appreciate what both of them do, and like I say I have the local bias that Labour fucked up my towns industry, just like you do with the Conservatives fucking up the North Easts industry. Swings and roundabouts. I can trust the Conservatives more with the economy, and thats the reason I got into this long-winded debate that changed nobodys minds and just caused everyone to be pissed off at each other

 

I'm not pissed off with you fwiw

[CleeToonFan 1]

The Labour tramps comment sort of rules out any sense of objective perspective on your part like. There were virtually no strikes under the last Labour government btw

Of course not, why would there need to be when we're borrowing that much money that everyone thinks life will be perfect? Let's put too much money into the civil service and then when the shit hits the fan we can blame everyone else, genius! No offence to any civil servants btw, it's not your fault you got such an easy ride.

 

 

It's like finding a long lost son!

He at least puts together a reasoned argument though.

Wahay! Anyway, we're all pissing into the wind here. Out of all of this, my main point is that i'd rather GDP grow slower and the deficit to be reduced more than a rapidly rising GDP and also a rapidly rising deficit.

http://pragmaticgovernment.blogspot.com/20...-vs-growth.html Just found this online and it pretty much agrees with what I say. Neither party is perfect as it shows, and as an outsider to both parties I think I can appreciate what both of them do, and like I say I have the local bias that Labour fucked up my towns industry, just like you do with the Conservatives fucking up the North Easts industry. Swings and roundabouts. I can trust the Conservatives more with the economy, and thats the reason I got into this long-winded debate that changed nobodys minds and just caused everyone to be pissed off at each other

 

How did Labour fuck up your town out of interest?

Grimsby is the fishing industry. Quotas, no support for the trawlermen during the Cod Wars led to most people being forced out the industries during the 70's (and as a result) the 80's too. Then they wouldn't give compensation to the fisherman brought out of jobs. Let's just say, by the time I was born, the docks were dead. Some of my family were in the fishing industry and despite being working class they wouldn't even dare vote Labour

[CleeToonFan 1]

With Greece it's too early days to judge. With us stimulating growth and slightly reducing that fucking huge deficit Labour decided would be a good idea. "Let's get all those tramps and wankers and give them more money than minimum wage on the dole, then they can have more kids and cans, brilliant idea!"

 

The defecit was caused by falling revenues caused by a recession whose global roots were in the US - yet another one falling for the media propaganda - are you CT's son?

 

Lol, I just said that!

 

It's quite refreshing to see such wisdom in one so young.

 

I long for a return to the days when student wankers used ill-formed left-wing arguments rather than Tory shite but I suppose that's "progress".

Don't worry, theres enough left-wingers to make up it. People walking around college with pins of Che Guevara and the likes

[ChezGiven 0]

I thought I answered that question? It stimulates growth and picks at the deficit.

 

They are completly relying on a depressed private sector stimulating growth - if it doesn't thay are proud there's no plan b.

Hasn't manufactoring/building gone up loads since the new government? Also, that's not entirely true, the government have some decent schemes, around our end they're completely rejuvenating the port and creating jobs for the lower classes there. I dunno about where you are but our entire town is picking itself up. I'm not even a Conservative either by the way, i'm just happy with the way they're dealing with things.

Figures to support that please.

 

Slowly recovering would be a better way to put it.

 

 

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=198

 

Remind me when Gordon Brown injected loads of money into the economy to promote a keynesian stimulation of the economy?

[NJS 4411]

Grimsby is the fishing industry. Quotas, no support for the trawlermen during the Cod Wars led to most people being forced out the industries during the 70's (and as a result) the 80's too. Then they wouldn't give compensation to the fisherman brought out of jobs. Let's just say, by the time I was born, the docks were dead. Some of my family were in the fishing industry and despite being working class they wouldn't even dare vote Labour

 

When the Cod wars were at their height who was in power?

When did the UK join the EU and who was in power?

Who was in power for the whole of the 80s?

[CleeToonFan 1]

Grimsby is the fishing industry. Quotas, no support for the trawlermen during the Cod Wars led to most people being forced out the industries during the 70's (and as a result) the 80's too. Then they wouldn't give compensation to the fisherman brought out of jobs. Let's just say, by the time I was born, the docks were dead. Some of my family were in the fishing industry and despite being working class they wouldn't even dare vote Labour

 

When the Cod wars were at their height who was in power?

When did the UK join the EU and who was in power?

Who was in power for the whole of the 80s?

Cod wars ended before 1980! The 80's just followed the trend. I'm actually pro-EU I just don't like the quotas (Iceland isnt in the EU anyway). Labour didn't give any help to the fishermen when they were in power, Conservatives did.

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

[NJS 4411]

Grimsby is the fishing industry. Quotas, no support for the trawlermen during the Cod Wars led to most people being forced out the industries during the 70's (and as a result) the 80's too. Then they wouldn't give compensation to the fisherman brought out of jobs. Let's just say, by the time I was born, the docks were dead. Some of my family were in the fishing industry and despite being working class they wouldn't even dare vote Labour

 

When the Cod wars were at their height who was in power?

When did the UK join the EU and who was in power?

Who was in power for the whole of the 80s?

Cod wars ended before 1980! The 80's just followed the trend. I'm actually pro-EU I just don't like the quotas (Iceland isnt in the EU anyway). Labour didn't give any help to the fishermen when they were in power, Conservatives did.

 

I remember the Cod wars (just) - they were when Heath was PM.

 

Fishing quotas are funny things - they may have a political self-interest element but fundamentally they are a good idea - unrestricted fishing would have ended the industry with a lot more finality than quotas and probably sooner.

 

I'd also say if that if the Tories did help an industry it would have had a more cynicla ulterior motive than Labour say helping coal mining because it goes against their basic values.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I have a message for George Osbourne:

 

 

[CleeToonFan 1]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

[Christmas Tree 4857]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

 

Didn't employment just go up again?

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Edited July 21, 2011 by ChezGiven

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

 

Didn't employment just go up again?

Q2 GDP figures out next week.

 

Wager?

[CleeToonFan 1]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Why must you continue to be a wanker with the cute things? I thought we'd covered that long ago? Must you act all holier than thou? It isn't ours to spend because every pound we borrow we pay back eventually with interest! As someone who has more than the immediate future to care about (you know, the time when I can grow up and have wrinkles and saggy testicles and all of a sudden know loads about how the world works?) I know that i'd rather have stagnation in GDP if it will help out eventually, a few years of that with a smaller deficit and we can push on.

[CleeToonFan 1]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

 

Didn't employment just go up again?

Q2 GDP figures out next week.

 

Wager?

Let's put a 10er on it

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

 

Didn't employment just go up again?

Q2 GDP figures out next week.

 

Wager?

Let's put a 10er on it

£10? Ahh..... bless.

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Why must you continue to be a wanker with the cute things? I thought we'd covered that long ago? Must you act all holier than thou? It isn't ours to spend because every pound we borrow we pay back eventually with interest! As someone who has more than the immediate future to care about (you know, the time when I can grow up and have wrinkles and saggy testicles and all of a sudden know loads about how the world works?) I know that i'd rather have stagnation in GDP if it will help out eventually, a few years of that with a smaller deficit and we can push on.

Only joking man... but do look up defintion of 'holier than thou'. Just a heads-up.

[Christmas Tree 4857]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

 

 

That's a lovely story Chez about some of the factors that occurred when it all went tits up, but that doesn't mean that Labour gets off from squandering money left right and centre whether that be on the bone idle, illegal wars, half cocked battle ships or stupid pfi's!

 

It's like describing the recession hitting and looking at two different families. One is living within their means, getting along ok and has a bit put away for a rainy day. The other is re-mortgaged to the hilt, credit cards max'd with two shiny new motors, a new kitchen, new Dfs sofa all on credit.

 

And before you give me all the manageable amount of debt etc I ain't interested. Labour were in power during a world wide boom and squandered the opportunity.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Balder than thou would have been more appropriate.

[NJS 4411]

Do you honestly believe the Tories would have "saved up for a rainy day" CT?

[CleeToonFan 1]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Why must you continue to be a wanker with the cute things? I thought we'd covered that long ago? Must you act all holier than thou? It isn't ours to spend because every pound we borrow we pay back eventually with interest! As someone who has more than the immediate future to care about (you know, the time when I can grow up and have wrinkles and saggy testicles and all of a sudden know loads about how the world works?) I know that i'd rather have stagnation in GDP if it will help out eventually, a few years of that with a smaller deficit and we can push on.

Only joking man... but do look up defintion of 'holier than thou'. Just a heads-up.

Holier than thou because of age not politics. Also I see we have a gambler, I only said a 10er because I didn't want to take an honest mans money , but 100 quid? Grand? If you want to waste money be my guest.

[ChezGiven 0]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Why must you continue to be a wanker with the cute things? I thought we'd covered that long ago? Must you act all holier than thou? It isn't ours to spend because every pound we borrow we pay back eventually with interest! As someone who has more than the immediate future to care about (you know, the time when I can grow up and have wrinkles and saggy testicles and all of a sudden know loads about how the world works?) I know that i'd rather have stagnation in GDP if it will help out eventually, a few years of that with a smaller deficit and we can push on.

Only joking man... but do look up defintion of 'holier than thou'. Just a heads-up.

Holier than thou because of age not politics. Also I see we have a gambler, I only said a 10er because I didn't want to take an honest mans money , but 100 quid? Grand? If you want to waste money be my guest.

So you mean condescending then, not Holier than thou. Duhhh.

 

I like you Clee, thats why i'm messing

 

Terms of your wager? What are you predicting?

[Christmas Tree 4857]

Do you honestly believe the Tories would have "saved up for a rainy day" CT?

 

It's immaterial as im not coming at it from a tribal position and neither is Cleethorpes.

 

The bottom line is it was Labours watch and upto them what they did and they fucked it up.

[CleeToonFan 1]

I do like the direction the thread has turned, i did get the sense that we were all like Nero playing on the NOTW fiddle (sic) whilst Rome (Athens, Berlin, Madrid) burned.

 

To paraphrase the great man, can the austerians tell me when the confidence fairies will be coming? They didnt visit Greece or Ireland so why should they be coming here? This is what the government is relying on, cutting spending will generate enough private sector confidence in UK PLC so as to attract massive investment, take up the slack from the lost jobs and re-stimulate the economy. Load of shite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPLooLfEXE

That's how we all feel right now

I think it's more to do with the fact we had no more money to spend and couldn't keep spending what wasn't ours to spend etc etc etc.

As government income is a constant hourly flow of cash into the treasury 'having no money' doesnt even make sense. Secondly, the deficit was caused by a significant reduction in tax revenues as the recession hit. People losing jobs, companies going bust, houses being written down, all caused a signficant reduction in tax revenue. We might say 6% as this is by how much the UK economy shrank.

 

The other side of the coin is the rise in government costs paying welfare and social security to the people who just lost their jobs. At the very same moment, because of the recession, the bond markets demand higher yields on government borrowing, adding to the deficit in an instantaneous fashion. Lets say 6% increase. Thats a 12% of GDP deficit from just the impact of the recesion. What was the deficit figure again?

 

'What wasnt ours to spend'. How cute.

Why must you continue to be a wanker with the cute things? I thought we'd covered that long ago? Must you act all holier than thou? It isn't ours to spend because every pound we borrow we pay back eventually with interest! As someone who has more than the immediate future to care about (you know, the time when I can grow up and have wrinkles and saggy testicles and all of a sudden know loads about how the world works?) I know that i'd rather have stagnation in GDP if it will help out eventually, a few years of that with a smaller deficit and we can push on.

Only joking man... but do look up defintion of 'holier than thou'. Just a heads-up.

Holier than thou because of age not politics. Also I see we have a gambler, I only said a 10er because I didn't want to take an honest mans money , but 100 quid? Grand? If you want to waste money be my guest.

So you mean condescending then, not Holier than thou. Duhhh.

 

I like you Clee, thats why i'm messing

 

Terms of your wager? What are you predicting?

Touché . Erm? Wager, loser has to wank off Polish Nick? I'm predicting that we will have at least 1% increase in GDP and/or decreasing unemployment, whatever floats your boat.

Edited July 21, 2011 by CleeToonFan