The Andy Carroll Con

[Deano 0]

So we are back on this shit are we? YAWN.

 

LMeffect.

[Guest alex]

[Toonpack 9171]

Couldnt care less what your opinion is, this is finance, not philosophy.

 

I'll spell it out for you using an example: I pay my taxes quarterly, in September 2010 my taxes for the following year were estimated and i had to pay this amount once every 3 months. This was a more solid committment to a payment than the Ben Arfa one as i would be breaking the law if i didnt pay it. The installments are to help me handle the amount, not based on paying when i owe. When the money came out of my bank account this month, a committment i made last year, is the amount left in my bank unaffected because i made this committment last year or has it reduced my balance?

 

I think you'll find the balance in my account is less the amount of tax i just paid, despite the committment to pay it being set up last September. The impact was this month and my disposable income available for me to spend on new things (are you getting it yet?) is reduced.

 

I should charge a fee for this shit tbh.

I can see both sides of this argument, Chez is right as far as Im concerned that the purchase was made in January however you'd be right to argue that the purchase wasnt a new one, we already had Ben Arfa and as far as the fans were aware we were planning on buying him regardless of whether Carroll stayed or went.

 

To then include him as a "its alright we sold Carroll because we got Ben Arfa" would be a strange one.

 

As has been said before, its too early to call either way on this transfer window. We've brought in some early and could continue to. On the other hand we could now get rid of all those that have been mentioned and end up in the brown stuff. Lets see come September, Im sure you can guess what I think the likely scenario is.

 

As for Toonpacks statement that a transfer fee is not creative accounting, no the fee itself isnt but thats not what Oz was getting at, it was the inclusion of future wages into the whole spending of that income.

 

We purchased Cabaye for £4.5m and are paying him £35k p/w on a 5 year contract which equates to a total outlay of £13.6m as far as the club are concerned. So out of the £35m Carroll money we now have £21.4m after Cabaye alone. Stick Ba on the same money and even on a free youve knocked another £9.1m off.

 

Its very creative accounting. It works to a fashion if, when we sell players, we also add their remaining contract wages to the pot but you can be sure that wont happen. We've spent £13m on Cabaye but if we were to sell him next year for £10m say then you can bet your house that the value we get told we're spending is £10m and not £17m as it really should be.

 

As for the original statement from Derek about it all going back into the club then yeah hes right but ultimately that equates to a saving for Ashley.

 

I know that's what he was getting at. That income is club income just like any other, and thus wages have to be catered for out of the whole pot (which includes the Carroll cash and anything else). Just because it's a transfer fee in doesn't make it any different or mean it can be "ringfenced".

 

p.s. According to the reports in France Cabaye is on £50K/week (60K Euros)

 

I've said all along we "should" have a net spend of north of £20Mill, I still believe that is the case.

 

As an aside, what's going to matter come 1st September the total the sum comes out at, or the content of the squad ??? (and before LM thinks I'm moving goalposts I'm not, it is a simple question)

[toonotl 2948]

That's exactly my point. For me, transfer fees spent out of the Carroll transfer money do not include deals that were organised before Carroll was sold. I truly don't think that is such an obscure concept.

Its very obscure, in fact i'd argue what you say there doesnt actually mean anything its just a loose connection of concepts. The money left our bank in January reducing the amount of money that was in there in January. The taxman, accountants and anyone with half a brain look at it that way.

 

My objetive is to understand the exact disposable income figure, yours can not be that as its not taking account of the actual finance available but a concept dreamt up on football forum to discount a financial fact.

 

For anyone who doesnt think its that important, its a 14% difference in budget.

 

Ok let's simplify things.

 

At the beginning of the January transfer window the board allocates a transfer budget (x) for Pardew to spend.

Pardew buys Ben Arfa out of that budget (y).

Carroll is sold and the fee is added to the transfer budget (either the full amount or a % of it)

 

ie. x-y+35 million= remaining transfer budget

 

Now the board can say that Pardew doesn't get the full 35 million to spend but they can't say that the Ben Arfa transfer is deducted from that amount since Pardew would already have a transfer kitty to work with which he paid the Ben Arfa fee.

 

Do you understand?

[tinofbeans 91]

Chez is like a highbrow Jeremy Kyle dishin out fiscal advice

Its a good analogy that.

more like howard from the halifax... ! just playing.

[LeazesMag 0]

Like the money received for a new shirt in the club shop, a transfer fee received is just income to the club, it's not creative accounting, why don't some people get this ???

 

..and what about the loss of our leading scorer and most promising local player in some time? Completely different to selling a shirt. You surely must concede that. Andy Carroll is an asset to the club, one that would have helped to maintain premiership status, helped to sell those same shirts you talk about, would have sold the dream to the local youth coming through, kept fans entertained and attending matches, no doubt kept the tabloids going etc etc.

 

We've been conned into thinking the sale of Carroll was too good to turn down because that money could easily be used to improve our squad. I'd stake my membership here on it.

 

It is only different in terms of magnitude otherwise it is exactly the same. A club asset was sold for a price.

 

Yeah, you're right. Anyone got the number for the Puma sweatshop? We'll get them to churn out some Andy Carrolls. Half a dozen or so at 35M a pop and we'll we debt free. I've seen the light.

 

easy as ABC innit' ? This guy can count his marbles alright

[ChezGiven 0]

That's exactly my point. For me, transfer fees spent out of the Carroll transfer money do not include deals that were organised before Carroll was sold. I truly don't think that is such an obscure concept.

Its very obscure, in fact i'd argue what you say there doesnt actually mean anything its just a loose connection of concepts. The money left our bank in January reducing the amount of money that was in there in January. The taxman, accountants and anyone with half a brain look at it that way.

 

My objetive is to understand the exact disposable income figure, yours can not be that as its not taking account of the actual finance available but a concept dreamt up on football forum to discount a financial fact.

 

For anyone who doesnt think its that important, its a 14% difference in budget.

 

Ok let's simplify things.

 

At the beginning of the January transfer window the board allocates a transfer budget (x) for Pardew to spend.

Pardew buys Ben Arfa out of that budget (y).

Carroll is sold and the fee is added to the transfer budget (either the full amount or a % of it)

 

ie. x-y+35 million= remaining transfer budget

 

Now the board can say that Pardew doesn't get the full 35 million to spend but they can't say that the Ben Arfa transfer is deducted from that amount since Pardew would already have a transfer kitty to work with which he paid the Ben Arfa fee.

 

Do you understand?

No, not that matters as its all made up in your head and incoherent. First of all the money was 'allocated' last summer, now its 'allocated' in January. There is no such thing as a transfer budget, thats just a way of referring to the current surplus cash/asset position at any given moment of the business cycle. It might make sense if there was a 'Department of Transfers' who received an annual budget each year. Thats not how it works.

[LeazesMag 0]

So we are back on this shit are we? YAWN.

 

LMeffect.

 

how is your little game of Championship Manager fantasy footbll going today ? Have you signed Messi yet ?

Edited June 24, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Guest alex]

I hate those new Halifax ads btw.

[tinofbeans 91]

yep. pretty terrible. most adverts are nowadays.

[toonotl 2948]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

[Happy Face 29]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

[ChezGiven 0]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

[LeazesMag 0]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

[LeazesMag 0]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

 

nice financial lessons Chez but are you saying NUFC are one of those clubs that need to sell to survive here ?

[Howmanheyman 32715]

Couldnt care less what your opinion is, this is finance, not philosophy.

 

I'll spell it out for you using an example: I pay my taxes quarterly, in September 2010 my taxes for the following year were estimated and i had to pay this amount once every 3 months. This was a more solid committment to a payment than the Ben Arfa one as i would be breaking the law if i didnt pay it. The installments are to help me handle the amount, not based on paying when i owe. When the money came out of my bank account this month, a committment i made last year, is the amount left in my bank unaffected because i made this committment last year or has it reduced my balance?

 

I think you'll find the balance in my account is less the amount of tax i just paid, despite the committment to pay it being set up last September. The impact was this month and my disposable income available for me to spend on new things (are you getting it yet?) is reduced.

 

I should charge a fee for this shit tbh.

I'd be asking for a refund, Chez.

[ChezGiven 0]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

 

nice financial lessons Chez but are you saying NUFC are one of those clubs that need to sell to survive here ?

No not at all, just establishing what is available and the limitations associated with it. There are 2 debates going on all the time, one is about where the club is in reality and the other is about what the club ought to do. If you dont understand the first, you cant have an informed discussion on the second.

 

They wont do what they ought to do but if you think we are loaded and have £35m sloshing around doing nothing then we ought to spend at least that. If we are recovering from relegation and still have high wage costs, then perhaps they ought to spend a bit less. Ultimately they wont spend what they should but the level of disaffection should be tempered by knowing that there isnt quite the amount of money presumed to be available actually there.

[LeazesMag 0]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

 

nice financial lessons Chez but are you saying NUFC are one of those clubs that need to sell to survive here ?

No not at all, just establishing what is available and the limitations associated with it. There are 2 debates going on all the time, one is about where the club is in reality and the other is about what the club ought to do. If you dont understand the first, you cant have an informed discussion on the second.

 

They wont do what they ought to do but if you think we are loaded and have £35m sloshing around doing nothing then we ought to spend at least that. If we are recovering from relegation and still have high wage costs, then perhaps they ought to spend a bit less. Ultimately they wont spend what they should but the level of disaffection should be tempered by knowing that there isnt quite the amount of money presumed to be available actually there.

 

I know exactly where the club is. My point is that he has no intention whatsoever of even attempting to put it where it should be, and never has.

[Happy Face 29]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

 

nice financial lessons Chez but are you saying NUFC are one of those clubs that need to sell to survive here ?

No not at all, just establishing what is available and the limitations associated with it. There are 2 debates going on all the time, one is about where the club is in reality and the other is about what the club ought to do. If you dont understand the first, you cant have an informed discussion on the second.

 

They wont do what they ought to do but if you think we are loaded and have £35m sloshing around doing nothing then we ought to spend at least that. If we are recovering from relegation and still have high wage costs, then perhaps they ought to spend a bit less. Ultimately they wont spend what they should but the level of disaffection should be tempered by knowing that there isnt quite the amount of money presumed to be available actually there.

 

I'm not having either of those discussions at the moment.

 

I'm sticking to the utter drivell that comes from the club which means the reality based discussion can't happen in the first place.

 

There's only once a year that the reality based conversation changes, that's when the books come out. So we can look at the effect of the Carroll sale in about 9 or 10 months time.

[Toonpack 9171]

Football Clubs don't have transfer budgets?

Ok.

 

I'm sure the transfer policies of Arsenal and Manchester United cause you alot of confusion in the world you live in so I let you get back to that.

 

Take it easy. You've made my night. fwiw.

They are implicit based on what is available. If the club decides to spend £10m the 'budget' was £10m, if they decide to spend more, the budget was more. Its limited by what is available. When you've just transferred £5m to a club in France, thats £5m less available than you had the previous day.

 

nice financial lessons Chez but are you saying NUFC are one of those clubs that need to sell to survive here ?

No not at all, just establishing what is available and the limitations associated with it. There are 2 debates going on all the time, one is about where the club is in reality and the other is about what the club ought to do. If you dont understand the first, you cant have an informed discussion on the second.

 

They wont do what they ought to do but if you think we are loaded and have £35m sloshing around doing nothing then we ought to spend at least that. If we are recovering from relegation and still have high wage costs, then perhaps they ought to spend a bit less. Ultimately they wont spend what they should but the level of disaffection should be tempered by knowing that there isnt quite the amount of money presumed to be available actually there.

 

I'm not having either of those discussions at the moment.

 

I'm sticking to the utter drivell that comes from the club which means the reality based discussion can't happen in the first place.

 

There's only once a year that the reality based conversation changes, that's when the books come out. So we can look at the effect of the Carroll sale in about 9 or 10 months time.

 

Why wait that long?? If there's been a policy change, it'll be evident by 1/9 and if that happens it'll be safe to accept that it was down to the Carroll money.

[Toonpack 9171]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

 

Glad I chose to un-ignore this post.

 

Still making stuff up I see.

 

Champions league places are "won" largely on ability to spend, which I would suggest equates to the health/depth of your (or your owners) bank balance. So indeed Champions League places are by virtue of said bank balance.

[LeazesMag 0]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

 

Glad I chose to un-ignore this post.

 

Still making stuff up I see.

 

Champions league places are "won" largely on ability to spend, which I would suggest equates to the health/depth of your (or your owners) bank balance. So indeed Champions League places are by virtue of said bank balance.

 

 

good job "Fred" bought Laurent Robert and Craig Bellamy then, instead of doing it the Mike Ashley way ie selling someone like Alan Shearer and Rob Lee to balance the books, or we would have wrapped ourselves in bottom half of the league splendour with a terrific bank balance instead of going to the Nou Camp [again] and the San Siro etc. Who the fuck wants to do things like that eh ?

[ChezGiven 0]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

 

Glad I chose to un-ignore this post.

 

Still making stuff up I see.

 

Champions league places are "won" largely on ability to spend, which I would suggest equates to the health/depth of your (or your owners) bank balance. So indeed Champions League places are by virtue of said bank balance.

 

 

good job "Fred" bought Laurent Robert and Craig Bellamy then, instead of doing it the Mike Ashley way ie selling someone like Alan Shearer and Rob Lee to balance the books, or we would have wrapped ourselves in bottom half of the league splendour with a terrific bank balance instead of going to the Nou Camp [again] and the San Siro etc. Who the fuck wants to do things like that eh ?

What would the club need to do from now until the end of the summer to make you think again? I dont mean change your mind completely, one good summer doesnt make an ambitious owner of course but what would be acceptable for you?

Edited June 24, 2011 by ChezGiven

[LeazesMag 0]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

 

Glad I chose to un-ignore this post.

 

Still making stuff up I see.

 

Champions league places are "won" largely on ability to spend, which I would suggest equates to the health/depth of your (or your owners) bank balance. So indeed Champions League places are by virtue of said bank balance.

 

 

good job "Fred" bought Laurent Robert and Craig Bellamy then, instead of doing it the Mike Ashley way ie selling someone like Alan Shearer and Rob Lee to balance the books, or we would have wrapped ourselves in bottom half of the league splendour with a terrific bank balance instead of going to the Nou Camp [again] and the San Siro etc. Who the fuck wants to do things like that eh ?

What would the club need to do from now until the end of the summer to make you think again? I dont mean change your mind completely, one good summer doesnt make an ambitious owner of course but what would be acceptable for you?

 

keep Enrique and Barton [on new deals], not necessarily spend the entire fee just yet on transfers received for carroll but make it crystal clear that the manager has it if he wants it [probably not possible this window unless it actually happens, because in my view they have a lot of ground to make up here]. There are players out there that we could sign that would change my mind ie Sturridge, a good striker - a quality one to push Ameobi right out of the picture, to be honest I've had enough now of this clown being considered as number 1 striker at a club like NUFC, even someone who wouldn't cost a huge fee like Kevin Davies [because I personally think in a good team with better players he has a lot more than we saw at Bolton at least under Allardyce], I said before that I would like to have signed jarvis from Wolves, but I suppose now the new player plays in a similar position.

 

This business about using transfer money received for things other than transfers "in" is a no brainer, they can fuck off with that idea for starters.

 

These players ie Sturridge, Jarvis and Davies [all of them] were mentioned a while ago as reasonable, possibly available, and realistic targets, with respect to finance and current position that would improve the team, going straight into it and push higher up the league, playing in positions in the team that needed strengthening.

 

The question isn't necessarily about "amount spent", its about trust that the club will be run properly with the ambition it ought to be, I don't want the club wasting money anymore than anybody else does, I don't want the club to pay miles over the top for players either but having said that I think paying a couple of million or so more for a player the manager wants is neither here nor there if he performs on the pitch and is a success.

 

They should be bringing players in before they sell players if at all possible ie Milner and Carroll were wrong, Keegan walked out because Milner was sold at the end of the window before he could replace him [but deep down he and the club knew they had no intention of replacing him anyway]. Overall, its a terrible way to run a football club, doing things like this, and treating your manager and supporters like this.

 

He needs to build bridges, but I'm 100% convinced he doesn't give a fuck, and will just sell a player to make a profit if revenues and operating costs don't provide one, he can't think long term, he doesn't understand the rewards that could be gained - or if he does, isn't interested in taking the gamble because quite simply selling a player now and again is an easier profit than speculating on qualifying for europe or the Champions League and all the spin offs that come with it, which actually necessitates the building, actually building, a good football team, and this only starts with keeping your best players and paying the going rate where necessary to improve further.

Edited June 24, 2011 by LeazesMag

[sniffer 0]

Glad I've cocered my arse for if we do spend the £35m

 

fucking great this man, on the one hand we have those [ie Toonpack - anything "Fred" did, lets do it differently] who think they dish out champions league and european places by virtue of your bank balance, and those of us who largely realise this is not the case.

 

Glad I chose to un-ignore this post.

 

Still making stuff up I see.

 

Champions league places are "won" largely on ability to spend, which I would suggest equates to the health/depth of your (or your owners) bank balance. So indeed Champions League places are by virtue of said bank balance.

 

 

good job "Fred" bought Laurent Robert and Craig Bellamy then, instead of doing it the Mike Ashley way ie selling someone like Alan Shearer and Rob Lee to balance the books, or we would have wrapped ourselves in bottom half of the league splendour with a terrific bank balance instead of going to the Nou Camp [again] and the San Siro etc. Who the fuck wants to do things like that eh ?

What would the club need to do from now until the end of the summer to make you think again? I dont mean change your mind completely, one good summer doesnt make an ambitious owner of course but what would be acceptable for you?

 

Be sold to an owner that gives a fuck?