Henderson to Liverpool

[JawD 99]

To cut through all the crap I'll highlight that what will be interesting is to track our progress v Liverpool. Numbers suggest they are spending well beyond their means. In other words as LM says they are speculating to accumulate. But it's a big risk. They are backing their new manager where it counts in a push to get back into the CL. If they do then their investment should pay for itself. They obviously seen enough of KD to suggest they think he can.

 

Not yet they don't. Historically they have not, January they didn't, but by 1st September we'll see what they're up to but they do have a long list of players they'll likely ship out yet.

 

The January numbers "add-up" due to Torres/Babel but this window will tell us whether the new owner is going SOB.

 

Of course I expect some of the Benitez/Hodson deadwood will be shipped out as well. so headlines about spending say 50m will need to be netted.

 

Well yes, really depends on what going out the door. At the moment we are only seeing incoming with high expenditure but this could just as quickly be reversed with sales. Or well lowered at least.

[JawD 99]

Something I'm not getting LM, what best players are you on about we have sold to teams lesser than us? I can think of maybe Milner to Villa?

 

I agree every club has debts. It's how those debts are managed. I had no problem with how FS was running the club. I didnt think about finances (who did then?). But, my understanding is we are running in debt?

 

I think of this window differently. I think MA without the sale of Carroll would have still given cash for transfers. Maybe £10M + any sales. I think he has actually SAVED his £10M and just let Pardew have the Carroll money (including wages and new contracts etc). I'd have liked to see him also give him the £10M (assuming it existed). Anyway, thats getting off the point a bit.

 

There is a shit load MA has got wrong, I dont like him and I like his puppet (DL) even less. I think he will fuck the fans over without a blink of the eye. But, I dont think he will run the club into the ground and it's his investment. It has to work or he loses out.

 

I apologise JawD, I meant to reply to what you said earlier. I'll have another look tomorrow. Was the stadium a badly managed debt ? Most financial experts didn't seem to think so, most of us on here have a mortgage and make repayments based on revenues, earnings etc, so why do amateur football wannabe accountants make out it was some sort of deal with the Devil. What is their alternative ? Save the money up first ? I've asked people like Toonpack and Mad Jock [in response to what he asked me] this very question, and the result is neither of them answer and Toonpack has put me on ignore probably because he realises that he can't.

 

Nobody on here is a football accountant, it would seem. If someone, anywhere, knew how to run a football club that is a success on the pitch and make massive profits to constantly buy the best footballers, how much would they be worth ?

 

Mike Ashley won't run the club into the ground because as you say, he owns it now and its his investment, but this is all he wants, he doesn't want success on the pitch, but he can make a profit without having success on the pitch, and this is what he wants. It is easier, far easier, for him to sell good players for a profit instead of gambling and speculating on getting into the Champions League, and I'm afraid that is what he is going to do.

 

Well, I dont think the finances were spiralling us into a black hole. Seemed ok back them the way it was being done despite what others will say now. But, that said, many are saying a lot of football clubs were pushing too far with debt and wages. The problem was more that if banks pulled the plug on their debt if they got nervous. I wonder how we would of faired if we were in the same boat when the banking crisis hit? I'd have been a little less comfortable. But, fact is we didnt go bust or whatever, we didnt collapse under FS so I agree with you here. It's just speculation and I'm looking at what has actually happened. So, while I agree with your (more or less) on this point, I've still seen little evidence (remember I'm looking at whats actually happened) to say we are a selling club supplying lesser teams as you said earlier.

 

I also agree that I dont think MA has aspirations for the champions league. That was pretty much confirmed by pardew when he said he hoped that by us getting into Europe, it might make MA thirst for more. I kinda agree with that. I hope he does. I think at the moment thye want a top half finish. I still have in my mind (the young team, the managed debt, the lower wage ratio) is all to set the club up as a good prospect to be sold. MA will then be in an ideal place. If he is enjoying it he can keep it and if not, sell it. But he had to sort things out first to try and make it more attractive. I think he'll struggle currently because of his price. He wont want to lower his price and lose out, so the only other way is to increase it's worth.

 

On my previous point though, I still dont really see evidence of us being a Bolton or Blackburn? Im not sure where you get that from.

 

All the first paragraph I agree, wild speculation ie we would have done this, we would have done that, we didn't go bust, we didn't get relegated and we were an established top club who on the occasions we weren't in europe people were waiting for corrective action to be taken etc.

 

Ashleys mouthpiece has said they will be happy with a top 10 finish, see my sig. Is this really good enough for a club like NUFC ? This is the goal of the smaller, selling clubs, that is my point when I talk about Bolton and Blackburn, who also sell their best players and replace with cheaper without giving their managers the money and freedom to replace properly and manage their own football teams and build a good football team by keeping players and improving what they already have.

 

As KK said, the best day will be when he sells, although scarily there are people out there who could be a lot worse yet.

 

Bolton would be happy with top 10, Blackburn would be thrilled imo. We want top 10 but does that mean we are the same as they? Again you mention this selling club thing but under MA, Im still struggling to see where we are selling our best players? Im not sure how you come to that conclusion? Carroll is one player at an obscene figure that could well turn out to be the money at the end of the rainbow if reinvested well (time will tell). I thought Carroll looked good for us but there is already ??? over the signing. Could be a masterstroke on our part yet.

[Rhys1879SAFC 0]

Canny article:

 

ANOTHER one bites the dust.

 

First Darren Bent, then Andy Carroll and now Jordan Henderson.

 

This is heartbreaking, if not necessarily surprising, stuff.

 

 

Hard to bear... Sunderland fans have now lost Jordan Henderson to Liverpool

The North-East deserves better than having seen those three players ply their trade as top-class Premier League players for a combined total of just three years.

 

Newcastle averaged more than 47,000 punters and Sunderland more than 40,000 every time they ran out on home turf last season.

 

These are supporters who do not need to be reminded of their loyalty, of the unique passion in two footballing cities that have done nothing in terms of domestic league honours for three-quarters of a century.

 

Yet they are.

 

 

Gone... Jordan Henderson

Both clubs tap into that desire when season-ticket renewals come dropping through the letter-box.

 

Both clubs take travelling support that takes your breath away.

 

A T-shirt sold in a Newcastle fanzine reads, "Toon, Beer, Bairns, Wor Lass, in that order" and, despite the crudity of the joke, there is substance to it.

 

It still makes the mind boggle to think where all the money comes from for their football club in two areas of high unemployment.

 

But they do it and they are encouraged to do it.

 

They are encouraged to make hostile atmospheres at St James' Park and the Stadium of Light, to show the regional fight.

 

When, then, will that be reciprocated in the boardroom?

 

Words prove meaningless when, the moment a club comes calling, the thought is not: "No, not for sale."

 

 

Gone... Andy Carroll

Instead, like some kind of endless game of deal or no deal, the banker is in this case Aston Villa or Liverpool, and the helpless sob story belongs to two clubs who have trigger-happy fingers when it comes to opening their box.

 

This is not something new, at least not for Newcastle supporters. A generation grew up watching Chris Waddle, Peter Beardsley and Paul Gascoigne leave.

 

The fundamental difference is that those fans saw those three players for 12 years. At least they saw them grow. They loved and lost.

 

Not like now, when the honeymoon is in full swing when the divorce papers land.

 

It is cruel. Back then it was blatantly obvious Newcastle had no penchant for ambition. The ground was a tip.

 

But the glorious development of St James' was supposed to signify ambition and happier times, just like the move to the Stadium of Light was supposed to present a more prosperous version of Sunderland.

 

 

Gone... Darren Bent

Right now those new, imposing structures look built on sand.

 

Nothing has changed. If anything, it has got worse.

 

Yes, player power is different. Yes, heads get turned quicker.

 

But come on - and I've said it in this column numerous times - get proactive.

 

Peter Reid had a great phrase for how he rates defenders: "Can they smell danger?"

 

Did the two clubs not realise that their best players would be coveted?

 

Good players have always been in demand. Good English players have always been at the top of shopping lists.

 

Has nobody learned that in 25 years?

 

It is all so disheartening.

 

Let's break this down to mathematics, and follow trends, and look at the graphs.

 

An extrapolation of events at both clubs suggests that Cheik Tiote will be gone sooner rather than later. That, if Hatem Ben Arfa recovers from his horrendous injury and can regularly produce goals like the on he did at Everton, he will be somewhere bigger and better once the phone goes.

 

What both boardrooms have never quite got is that the message rings loudest in their dressing rooms.

 

Carroll's sale in January will reverberate around the home changing room for years. Jose Enrique and Joey Barton both saw the lack of ambition when he was sold in the blink of an eye.

 

Players do not need encouragement when it comes to acting like commodities.

 

And of course there is this final thought.

 

Does that mean the players left are unwanted?

 

If all the really good players leave the moment an offer comes in, are supporters expected to keep forking out hundreds of pounds for what is left?

 

That's the problem with loyalty in football.

 

It's usually a one-way street.

[LeazesMag 0]

Canny article:

 

ANOTHER one bites the dust.

 

First Darren Bent, then Andy Carroll and now Jordan Henderson.

 

This is heartbreaking, if not necessarily surprising, stuff.

 

 

Hard to bear... Sunderland fans have now lost Jordan Henderson to Liverpool

The North-East deserves better than having seen those three players ply their trade as top-class Premier League players for a combined total of just three years.

 

Newcastle averaged more than 47,000 punters and Sunderland more than 40,000 every time they ran out on home turf last season.

 

These are supporters who do not need to be reminded of their loyalty, of the unique passion in two footballing cities that have done nothing in terms of domestic league honours for three-quarters of a century.

 

Yet they are.

 

 

Gone... Jordan Henderson

Both clubs tap into that desire when season-ticket renewals come dropping through the letter-box.

 

Both clubs take travelling support that takes your breath away.

 

A T-shirt sold in a Newcastle fanzine reads, "Toon, Beer, Bairns, Wor Lass, in that order" and, despite the crudity of the joke, there is substance to it.

 

It still makes the mind boggle to think where all the money comes from for their football club in two areas of high unemployment.

 

But they do it and they are encouraged to do it.

 

They are encouraged to make hostile atmospheres at St James' Park and the Stadium of Light, to show the regional fight.

 

When, then, will that be reciprocated in the boardroom?

 

Words prove meaningless when, the moment a club comes calling, the thought is not: "No, not for sale."

 

 

Gone... Andy Carroll

Instead, like some kind of endless game of deal or no deal, the banker is in this case Aston Villa or Liverpool, and the helpless sob story belongs to two clubs who have trigger-happy fingers when it comes to opening their box.

 

This is not something new, at least not for Newcastle supporters. A generation grew up watching Chris Waddle, Peter Beardsley and Paul Gascoigne leave.

 

The fundamental difference is that those fans saw those three players for 12 years. At least they saw them grow. They loved and lost.

 

Not like now, when the honeymoon is in full swing when the divorce papers land.

 

It is cruel. Back then it was blatantly obvious Newcastle had no penchant for ambition. The ground was a tip.

 

But the glorious development of St James' was supposed to signify ambition and happier times, just like the move to the Stadium of Light was supposed to present a more prosperous version of Sunderland.

 

 

Gone... Darren Bent

Right now those new, imposing structures look built on sand.

 

Nothing has changed. If anything, it has got worse.

 

Yes, player power is different. Yes, heads get turned quicker.

 

But come on - and I've said it in this column numerous times - get proactive.

 

Peter Reid had a great phrase for how he rates defenders: "Can they smell danger?"

 

Did the two clubs not realise that their best players would be coveted?

 

Good players have always been in demand. Good English players have always been at the top of shopping lists.

 

Has nobody learned that in 25 years?

 

It is all so disheartening.

 

Let's break this down to mathematics, and follow trends, and look at the graphs.

 

An extrapolation of events at both clubs suggests that Cheik Tiote will be gone sooner rather than later. That, if Hatem Ben Arfa recovers from his horrendous injury and can regularly produce goals like the on he did at Everton, he will be somewhere bigger and better once the phone goes.

 

What both boardrooms have never quite got is that the message rings loudest in their dressing rooms.

 

Carroll's sale in January will reverberate around the home changing room for years. Jose Enrique and Joey Barton both saw the lack of ambition when he was sold in the blink of an eye.

 

Players do not need encouragement when it comes to acting like commodities.

 

And of course there is this final thought.

 

Does that mean the players left are unwanted?

 

If all the really good players leave the moment an offer comes in, are supporters expected to keep forking out hundreds of pounds for what is left?

 

That's the problem with loyalty in football.

 

It's usually a one-way street.

 

nailed. And the way is now clear for the brainwashed and deluded to wave their scarves at matches and idolising the bank balance, while their teams are struggling and losing.

 

One day they will wake up, having said that, a number of those advocating such a stance appear to be those who aren't puttng their hard cash into the club, as it's easy to harbour grand ideals when you sit on the sidelines watching "your team" on Match of the Day or sky tv in the pub.

Edited June 14, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Toonpack 9978]

Canny article:

 

ANOTHER one bites the dust.

 

First Darren Bent, then Andy Carroll and now Jordan Henderson.

 

This is heartbreaking, if not necessarily surprising, stuff.

 

 

Hard to bear... Sunderland fans have now lost Jordan Henderson to Liverpool

The North-East deserves better than having seen those three players ply their trade as top-class Premier League players for a combined total of just three years.

 

Newcastle averaged more than 47,000 punters and Sunderland more than 40,000 every time they ran out on home turf last season.

 

These are supporters who do not need to be reminded of their loyalty, of the unique passion in two footballing cities that have done nothing in terms of domestic league honours for three-quarters of a century.

 

Yet they are.

 

 

Gone... Jordan Henderson

Both clubs tap into that desire when season-ticket renewals come dropping through the letter-box.

 

Both clubs take travelling support that takes your breath away.

 

A T-shirt sold in a Newcastle fanzine reads, "Toon, Beer, Bairns, Wor Lass, in that order" and, despite the crudity of the joke, there is substance to it.

 

It still makes the mind boggle to think where all the money comes from for their football club in two areas of high unemployment.

 

But they do it and they are encouraged to do it.

 

They are encouraged to make hostile atmospheres at St James' Park and the Stadium of Light, to show the regional fight.

 

When, then, will that be reciprocated in the boardroom?

 

Words prove meaningless when, the moment a club comes calling, the thought is not: "No, not for sale."

 

 

Gone... Andy Carroll

Instead, like some kind of endless game of deal or no deal, the banker is in this case Aston Villa or Liverpool, and the helpless sob story belongs to two clubs who have trigger-happy fingers when it comes to opening their box.

 

This is not something new, at least not for Newcastle supporters. A generation grew up watching Chris Waddle, Peter Beardsley and Paul Gascoigne leave.

 

The fundamental difference is that those fans saw those three players for 12 years. At least they saw them grow. They loved and lost.

 

Not like now, when the honeymoon is in full swing when the divorce papers land.

 

It is cruel. Back then it was blatantly obvious Newcastle had no penchant for ambition. The ground was a tip.

 

But the glorious development of St James' was supposed to signify ambition and happier times, just like the move to the Stadium of Light was supposed to present a more prosperous version of Sunderland.

 

 

Gone... Darren Bent

Right now those new, imposing structures look built on sand.

 

Nothing has changed. If anything, it has got worse.

 

Yes, player power is different. Yes, heads get turned quicker.

 

But come on - and I've said it in this column numerous times - get proactive.

 

Peter Reid had a great phrase for how he rates defenders: "Can they smell danger?"

 

Did the two clubs not realise that their best players would be coveted?

 

Good players have always been in demand. Good English players have always been at the top of shopping lists.

 

Has nobody learned that in 25 years?

 

It is all so disheartening.

 

Let's break this down to mathematics, and follow trends, and look at the graphs.

 

An extrapolation of events at both clubs suggests that Cheik Tiote will be gone sooner rather than later. That, if Hatem Ben Arfa recovers from his horrendous injury and can regularly produce goals like the on he did at Everton, he will be somewhere bigger and better once the phone goes.

 

What both boardrooms have never quite got is that the message rings loudest in their dressing rooms.

 

Carroll's sale in January will reverberate around the home changing room for years. Jose Enrique and Joey Barton both saw the lack of ambition when he was sold in the blink of an eye.

 

Players do not need encouragement when it comes to acting like commodities.

 

And of course there is this final thought.

 

Does that mean the players left are unwanted?

 

If all the really good players leave the moment an offer comes in, are supporters expected to keep forking out hundreds of pounds for what is left?

 

That's the problem with loyalty in football.

 

It's usually a one-way street.

 

If Bent and Carroll had been sold for £12-£15 million each and Henderson for say £8-£10Mill, he'd have a point.

[JawD 99]

Somehow I dont think you can class Carroll being sold for £35M as "at the blink of an eye".

[Toonpack 9978]

Somehow I dont think you can class Carroll being sold for £35M as "at the blink of an eye".

 

I dunno, when I saw the fee I certainly blinked !!

[LeazesMag 0]

Canny article:

 

ANOTHER one bites the dust.

 

First Darren Bent, then Andy Carroll and now Jordan Henderson.

 

This is heartbreaking, if not necessarily surprising, stuff.

 

 

Hard to bear... Sunderland fans have now lost Jordan Henderson to Liverpool

The North-East deserves better than having seen those three players ply their trade as top-class Premier League players for a combined total of just three years.

 

Newcastle averaged more than 47,000 punters and Sunderland more than 40,000 every time they ran out on home turf last season.

 

These are supporters who do not need to be reminded of their loyalty, of the unique passion in two footballing cities that have done nothing in terms of domestic league honours for three-quarters of a century.

 

Yet they are.

 

 

Gone... Jordan Henderson

Both clubs tap into that desire when season-ticket renewals come dropping through the letter-box.

 

Both clubs take travelling support that takes your breath away.

 

A T-shirt sold in a Newcastle fanzine reads, "Toon, Beer, Bairns, Wor Lass, in that order" and, despite the crudity of the joke, there is substance to it.

 

It still makes the mind boggle to think where all the money comes from for their football club in two areas of high unemployment.

 

But they do it and they are encouraged to do it.

 

They are encouraged to make hostile atmospheres at St James' Park and the Stadium of Light, to show the regional fight.

 

When, then, will that be reciprocated in the boardroom?

 

Words prove meaningless when, the moment a club comes calling, the thought is not: "No, not for sale."

 

 

Gone... Andy Carroll

Instead, like some kind of endless game of deal or no deal, the banker is in this case Aston Villa or Liverpool, and the helpless sob story belongs to two clubs who have trigger-happy fingers when it comes to opening their box.

 

This is not something new, at least not for Newcastle supporters. A generation grew up watching Chris Waddle, Peter Beardsley and Paul Gascoigne leave.

 

The fundamental difference is that those fans saw those three players for 12 years. At least they saw them grow. They loved and lost.

 

Not like now, when the honeymoon is in full swing when the divorce papers land.

 

It is cruel. Back then it was blatantly obvious Newcastle had no penchant for ambition. The ground was a tip.

 

But the glorious development of St James' was supposed to signify ambition and happier times, just like the move to the Stadium of Light was supposed to present a more prosperous version of Sunderland.

 

 

Gone... Darren Bent

Right now those new, imposing structures look built on sand.

 

Nothing has changed. If anything, it has got worse.

 

Yes, player power is different. Yes, heads get turned quicker.

 

But come on - and I've said it in this column numerous times - get proactive.

 

Peter Reid had a great phrase for how he rates defenders: "Can they smell danger?"

 

Did the two clubs not realise that their best players would be coveted?

 

Good players have always been in demand. Good English players have always been at the top of shopping lists.

 

Has nobody learned that in 25 years?

 

It is all so disheartening.

 

Let's break this down to mathematics, and follow trends, and look at the graphs.

 

An extrapolation of events at both clubs suggests that Cheik Tiote will be gone sooner rather than later. That, if Hatem Ben Arfa recovers from his horrendous injury and can regularly produce goals like the on he did at Everton, he will be somewhere bigger and better once the phone goes.

 

What both boardrooms have never quite got is that the message rings loudest in their dressing rooms.

 

Carroll's sale in January will reverberate around the home changing room for years. Jose Enrique and Joey Barton both saw the lack of ambition when he was sold in the blink of an eye.

 

Players do not need encouragement when it comes to acting like commodities.

 

And of course there is this final thought.

 

Does that mean the players left are unwanted?

 

If all the really good players leave the moment an offer comes in, are supporters expected to keep forking out hundreds of pounds for what is left?

 

That's the problem with loyalty in football.

 

It's usually a one-way street.

 

If Bent and Carroll had been sold for £12-£15 million each and Henderson for say £8-£10Mill, he'd have a point.

 

Toonpack knows better than Liverpool how to succeed in football

[LeazesMag 0]

Your argument is all well and good. Everyone else would agree also we want the best players at the club and that is not the issue here. You are choosing to ignore the most salient point of all and that it we can't afford it.

 

Let me phrase it slightly differently then, rather than telling you that you are wrong as you point out you are fully entitled to your own opinion how do you think we should finance the the visions you have. Where are we to get the money from and who realistically do you think we could attract with the club as is (my point here is mistakes have been made in the past! They have now gone and cannot be changed so how would you from this point finance success and stop the club from going in to administration as it is obvious you are happy to run on debt as long as the club does not go under)

 

Answer me that with a sensible response which is plausible and could yield results and you never know I may, just may be won over. I am not here to as you claim lay down personal assassinations, it is simply an observation made based on your way of thinking which personally I find completely and utterly immoral, however, I will keep these opinions to myself and allow you to try and get your point across by way of a reasonable plan for the club without further prejudice to your personality!

 

my answer is you speculate to accumulate. Nobody in football "saves the money up to buy footballers or only spends their profits on new signings". Is this what you mean ? This is not the "real" footballing world. EVery club has debts. Having debts in football is the way it is, its a shit industry and completely different to the "normal" financial rules and scenarios.

 

People like you can preach on about your idealistic views, which is a successful club that spends its profits on footballers, and the profits are large enough to constantly buy the best footballers, but in football, it doesn't work like that.

 

Debt is the name of the game I'm afraid.

 

The alternative is selling your best clubs to others who are smaller than you but recognise how success is achieved, rather than sitting in an ivory tower and putting the football world to rights and claiming the higher ground. The basic starting point is supporters, sponsors, advertisers, TV, the best footballers etc etc are not attracted to a club which makes a profit, they are attracted to a team which is winning on the pitch and competing at the top levels.

 

Illogical and different it may be, but that is the name of the game and how it is. There is no point in people like you pointing at the idealistic dream, football is the way it is, its a loss making "industry", accept it and deal with it.

 

If you disagree, name me clubs that succeed by only spending profits, and name me any NUFC team you like of any period who has challenged the top teams by only spending profits and nothing else.

 

The other major point also is this. These message boards, and in real life, produce plenty of people who are quite happy to say "if Ashley wasn't here we would have gone bust and out of existence". Apart from that being absolute shit, the fact also is they wanted rid of the last owners because they thought "anyone would do better than Fred" [with the revenues] but were too stupid to realise it was the Halls and Shepherd and the policies they adopted who built up these revenues. Now we have an owner who is not speculating, so the revenues have changed, leading to a "more efficient business", and people are latching onto this because it is the opposite of what the old owners did, who they "hate", so they want to justify it. So stop moving the goalposts. Not one single person who is now harping on about the finance, said at the time, using some sort of miraculous foresight, that this is why we needed a new owner to compete with Man City because they were going to be taken over by a bunch of Arabs. Not one.

 

This scouting around for cheaper players to replace the quality ones you sell is just an idealistic dream too, it just doesn't work, it won't work. Sell your best players and you go downwards, in the vast majority of cases. That's the way it is.

 

I don't know what "mistakes in the past" you are referring to [another cliche which always makes me smile] but from where I'm sitting, taking a club from one foot in the 3rd division, with a cow shed of a stadium, into one of the biggest clubs in europe, with one of the best grounds, filling it every week, qualifying for europe regularly, attracting top footballers including a world record transfer, doesn't suggest to me that they made too many "mistakes". Some maybe, of course, but not many.

 

I just know that you won't take this on board, but give me flak for posting the "same old nonsense" or however you want to label it, but unfortunately it is right and although at the moment you don't want to see it, in time you will realise the truth. The club is in decline, stand still, don't pay the going rate for wages, sell your best players, and you are in decline.

 

Take heed sunshine, because this is something you should take note of, before branding me "the sort of person that I am" or whatever you were trying to say. I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt, I'm not trying to "wind you up" or any other childish accusation, I'm saying what over 40 years of supporting this football club has shown me. Ignore it if you choose, but eventually, one day, you will realise that I am right.

 

not answering then ?

[scoular 0]

Back to Liverpool's spending - they still have a new stadium to build: cost 400M?

They are backing their manager, but his buying record with us was crap. Spending 55M in Carrol & Henderson suggest that he has not learnt from his mistakes!

[JawD 99]

Read in the news earlier today that they will be offloading a bunch of players though to recoup some of the costs.

[AgentAxeman 189]

Read in the news earlier today that they will be offloading a bunch of players though to recoup some of the costs.

 

 

makes sense. Lfc's 1st team squad is fuckin huge.

[LeazesMag 0]

Back to Liverpool's spending - they still have a new stadium to build: cost 400M?

They are backing their manager, but his buying record with us was crap. Spending 55M in Carrol & Henderson suggest that he has not learnt from his mistakes!

 

indeed, it will be interesting to see how they finance this stadium, will they save the money up first as some people on here appear to be saying we ought to have done [reject anything that Fred did etc etc]

 

I will still laugh if their buying backfires, but I'm still laughing at those who are using the actual aims of Liverpool as something to justify our decision to play 2nd rate in the transfer market - again, reject anything Fred did etc etc.

 

Whatever success Dalglish has or otherwise, it doesn't take away the fact that they are speculating and even if it takes another manager to operate more successfully in the transfer market, its still the way to do it and its still the way the big clubs should be competing.

Edited June 15, 2011 by LeazesMag

[LeazesMag 0]

Your argument is all well and good. Everyone else would agree also we want the best players at the club and that is not the issue here. You are choosing to ignore the most salient point of all and that it we can't afford it.

 

Let me phrase it slightly differently then, rather than telling you that you are wrong as you point out you are fully entitled to your own opinion how do you think we should finance the the visions you have. Where are we to get the money from and who realistically do you think we could attract with the club as is (my point here is mistakes have been made in the past! They have now gone and cannot be changed so how would you from this point finance success and stop the club from going in to administration as it is obvious you are happy to run on debt as long as the club does not go under)

 

Answer me that with a sensible response which is plausible and could yield results and you never know I may, just may be won over. I am not here to as you claim lay down personal assassinations, it is simply an observation made based on your way of thinking which personally I find completely and utterly immoral, however, I will keep these opinions to myself and allow you to try and get your point across by way of a reasonable plan for the club without further prejudice to your personality!

 

my answer is you speculate to accumulate. Nobody in football "saves the money up to buy footballers or only spends their profits on new signings". Is this what you mean ? This is not the "real" footballing world. EVery club has debts. Having debts in football is the way it is, its a shit industry and completely different to the "normal" financial rules and scenarios.

 

People like you can preach on about your idealistic views, which is a successful club that spends its profits on footballers, and the profits are large enough to constantly buy the best footballers, but in football, it doesn't work like that.

 

Debt is the name of the game I'm afraid.

 

The alternative is selling your best clubs to others who are smaller than you but recognise how success is achieved, rather than sitting in an ivory tower and putting the football world to rights and claiming the higher ground. The basic starting point is supporters, sponsors, advertisers, TV, the best footballers etc etc are not attracted to a club which makes a profit, they are attracted to a team which is winning on the pitch and competing at the top levels.

 

Illogical and different it may be, but that is the name of the game and how it is. There is no point in people like you pointing at the idealistic dream, football is the way it is, its a loss making "industry", accept it and deal with it.

 

If you disagree, name me clubs that succeed by only spending profits, and name me any NUFC team you like of any period who has challenged the top teams by only spending profits and nothing else.

 

The other major point also is this. These message boards, and in real life, produce plenty of people who are quite happy to say "if Ashley wasn't here we would have gone bust and out of existence". Apart from that being absolute shit, the fact also is they wanted rid of the last owners because they thought "anyone would do better than Fred" [with the revenues] but were too stupid to realise it was the Halls and Shepherd and the policies they adopted who built up these revenues. Now we have an owner who is not speculating, so the revenues have changed, leading to a "more efficient business", and people are latching onto this because it is the opposite of what the old owners did, who they "hate", so they want to justify it. So stop moving the goalposts. Not one single person who is now harping on about the finance, said at the time, using some sort of miraculous foresight, that this is why we needed a new owner to compete with Man City because they were going to be taken over by a bunch of Arabs. Not one.

 

This scouting around for cheaper players to replace the quality ones you sell is just an idealistic dream too, it just doesn't work, it won't work. Sell your best players and you go downwards, in the vast majority of cases. That's the way it is.

 

I don't know what "mistakes in the past" you are referring to [another cliche which always makes me smile] but from where I'm sitting, taking a club from one foot in the 3rd division, with a cow shed of a stadium, into one of the biggest clubs in europe, with one of the best grounds, filling it every week, qualifying for europe regularly, attracting top footballers including a world record transfer, doesn't suggest to me that they made too many "mistakes". Some maybe, of course, but not many.

 

I just know that you won't take this on board, but give me flak for posting the "same old nonsense" or however you want to label it, but unfortunately it is right and although at the moment you don't want to see it, in time you will realise the truth. The club is in decline, stand still, don't pay the going rate for wages, sell your best players, and you are in decline.

 

Take heed sunshine, because this is something you should take note of, before branding me "the sort of person that I am" or whatever you were trying to say. I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt, I'm not trying to "wind you up" or any other childish accusation, I'm saying what over 40 years of supporting this football club has shown me. Ignore it if you choose, but eventually, one day, you will realise that I am right.

 

Well GeeForce ? No reply ? Why not ? I answered you ? Are you going to reply sensibly and constructively, or show us "what sort of person you really are " ?

[JawD 99]

Back to Liverpool's spending - they still have a new stadium to build: cost 400M?

They are backing their manager, but his buying record with us was crap. Spending 55M in Carrol & Henderson suggest that he has not learnt from his mistakes!

 

indeed, it will be interesting to see how they finance this stadium, will they save the money up first as some people on here appear to be saying we ought to have done [reject anything that Fred did etc etc]

 

I will still laugh if their buying backfires, but I'm still laughing at those who are using the actual aims of Liverpool as something to justify our decision to play 2nd rate in the transfer market - again, reject anything Fred did etc etc.

 

Whatever success Dalglish has or otherwise, it doesn't take away the fact that they are speculating and even if it takes another manager to operate more successfully in the transfer market, its still the way to do it and its still the way the big clubs should be competing.

 

Reading today though that they need a massive clearout to fund these purchases.

[JawD 99]

Hang on I've said that. Getting as bad as LM

[sniffer 0]

Perhaps pardew will be in for some of the cut price shite that they want to offload.

[GeeForce 0]

Your argument is all well and good. Everyone else would agree also we want the best players at the club and that is not the issue here. You are choosing to ignore the most salient point of all and that it we can't afford it.

 

Let me phrase it slightly differently then, rather than telling you that you are wrong as you point out you are fully entitled to your own opinion how do you think we should finance the the visions you have. Where are we to get the money from and who realistically do you think we could attract with the club as is (my point here is mistakes have been made in the past! They have now gone and cannot be changed so how would you from this point finance success and stop the club from going in to administration as it is obvious you are happy to run on debt as long as the club does not go under)

 

Answer me that with a sensible response which is plausible and could yield results and you never know I may, just may be won over. I am not here to as you claim lay down personal assassinations, it is simply an observation made based on your way of thinking which personally I find completely and utterly immoral, however, I will keep these opinions to myself and allow you to try and get your point across by way of a reasonable plan for the club without further prejudice to your personality!

 

my answer is you speculate to accumulate. Nobody in football "saves the money up to buy footballers or only spends their profits on new signings". Is this what you mean ? This is not the "real" footballing world. EVery club has debts. Having debts in football is the way it is, its a shit industry and completely different to the "normal" financial rules and scenarios.

 

People like you can preach on about your idealistic views, which is a successful club that spends its profits on footballers, and the profits are large enough to constantly buy the best footballers, but in football, it doesn't work like that.

 

Debt is the name of the game I'm afraid.

 

The alternative is selling your best clubs to others who are smaller than you but recognise how success is achieved, rather than sitting in an ivory tower and putting the football world to rights and claiming the higher ground. The basic starting point is supporters, sponsors, advertisers, TV, the best footballers etc etc are not attracted to a club which makes a profit, they are attracted to a team which is winning on the pitch and competing at the top levels.

 

Illogical and different it may be, but that is the name of the game and how it is. There is no point in people like you pointing at the idealistic dream, football is the way it is, its a loss making "industry", accept it and deal with it.

 

If you disagree, name me clubs that succeed by only spending profits, and name me any NUFC team you like of any period who has challenged the top teams by only spending profits and nothing else.

 

The other major point also is this. These message boards, and in real life, produce plenty of people who are quite happy to say "if Ashley wasn't here we would have gone bust and out of existence". Apart from that being absolute shit, the fact also is they wanted rid of the last owners because they thought "anyone would do better than Fred" [with the revenues] but were too stupid to realise it was the Halls and Shepherd and the policies they adopted who built up these revenues. Now we have an owner who is not speculating, so the revenues have changed, leading to a "more efficient business", and people are latching onto this because it is the opposite of what the old owners did, who they "hate", so they want to justify it. So stop moving the goalposts. Not one single person who is now harping on about the finance, said at the time, using some sort of miraculous foresight, that this is why we needed a new owner to compete with Man City because they were going to be taken over by a bunch of Arabs. Not one.

 

This scouting around for cheaper players to replace the quality ones you sell is just an idealistic dream too, it just doesn't work, it won't work. Sell your best players and you go downwards, in the vast majority of cases. That's the way it is.

 

I don't know what "mistakes in the past" you are referring to [another cliche which always makes me smile] but from where I'm sitting, taking a club from one foot in the 3rd division, with a cow shed of a stadium, into one of the biggest clubs in europe, with one of the best grounds, filling it every week, qualifying for europe regularly, attracting top footballers including a world record transfer, doesn't suggest to me that they made too many "mistakes". Some maybe, of course, but not many.

 

I just know that you won't take this on board, but give me flak for posting the "same old nonsense" or however you want to label it, but unfortunately it is right and although at the moment you don't want to see it, in time you will realise the truth. The club is in decline, stand still, don't pay the going rate for wages, sell your best players, and you are in decline.

 

Take heed sunshine, because this is something you should take note of, before branding me "the sort of person that I am" or whatever you were trying to say. I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt, I'm not trying to "wind you up" or any other childish accusation, I'm saying what over 40 years of supporting this football club has shown me. Ignore it if you choose, but eventually, one day, you will realise that I am right.

 

Well GeeForce ? No reply ? Why not ? I answered you ? Are you going to reply sensibly and constructively, or show us "what sort of person you really are " ?

 

I am afraid you missed my points by so much i felt it pointless to bother with you anymore.

 

As for a loss making industry you seem reluctant to accept that whilst this may be the norm, the amount of borrowings that can be made by anyone club is not infinite. You think that a loss making industry can continue to run building up more and more debt, living off borrowings and increasing interest payments on these borrowings year on year. What do you think happens when the clubs have no more equity left to remortgage, the season ticket sales are mortgaged for future years to come and borrowings can not be further increased? How do you then think that rising interest payments are to be met? Outside investment I hear you say, not when Ashley has already poured his own money in. You say that Ashley will not let the club go under because of this investment he has made and you think it is right that rather than him attempt to make it a financially viable business he just ploughs it full of money until he has zero personal wealth, he folds and so does the club. If it was your business, and it was telephones for example, would you do that to keep your staff in jobs and customers happy, of course not, so why is it acceptable for you to expect that from him.

 

Or are you living in hope that during the above period someone will come in and make Ashley a ridiculous offer for a club which is ridled with debt and full of over paid, under worked players?

 

Your argument, whether the norm or not, has no logic whatsoever. You speculate to accumulate which I do agree with to a point but you have to have the money to do that in the first place. The club was mortgaged to the hilt and you are whinging cos this is being paid off and we are effectively solvent, I just can't get my head round your way of thinking and that is why I did not reply and will not bother replying again. As far as I am concerned we should agree to disagree!

[Pacinofan 0]

Back to Liverpool's spending - they still have a new stadium to build: cost 400M?

They are backing their manager, but his buying record with us was crap. Spending 55M in Carrol & Henderson suggest that he has not learnt from his mistakes!

 

Wasn't crap with us though, he created the greatest Liverpool team I've ever seen and, imo, he also created the best English club side I've seen. Every manager makes some mistakes in the transfer market, Kenny didn't make any high priced mistakes for us.

 

16 million for a young player with potential and lower wages makes sense at the present time. We haven't got European football to offer so it's a waste of time buying high priced players who are only willing to come if you give them high wages to compensate for no CL. I like the way the club are working personally.

[ChezGiven 0]

Back to Liverpool's spending - they still have a new stadium to build: cost 400M?

They are backing their manager, but his buying record with us was crap. Spending 55M in Carrol & Henderson suggest that he has not learnt from his mistakes!

 

Wasn't crap with us though, he created the greatest Liverpool team I've ever seen and, imo, he also created the best English club side I've seen. Every manager makes some mistakes in the transfer market, Kenny didn't make any high priced mistakes for us.

 

16 million for a young player with potential and lower wages makes sense at the present time. We haven't got European football to offer so it's a waste of time buying high priced players who are only willing to come if you give them high wages to compensate for no CL. I like the way the club are working personally.

There's an interesting point of view.

[Tom 14013]

Henderson is on £80k if that's who you're referring to!

[Pacinofan 0]

Depends who you believe Tom doesn't it. I've heard 65k but even at 80k it's not that bad considering some of the wages around. I'd rather see a young player with potential get 80k, than Joe Cole drawing 90.

[GeeForce 0]

Depends who you believe Tom doesn't it. I've heard 65k but even at 80k it's not that bad considering some of the wages around. I'd rather see a young player with potential get 80k, than Joe Cole drawing 90.

But if you also put that in to perspective that makes Jordan Henderson "according to someone else earlier on in this thread" the 55th most highley paid footballer of all time! I am sorry but that really is a joke!

[Pacinofan 0]

Depends who you believe Tom doesn't it. I've heard 65k but even at 80k it's not that bad considering some of the wages around. I'd rather see a young player with potential get 80k, than Joe Cole drawing 90.

But if you also put that in to perspective that makes Jordan Henderson "according to someone else earlier on in this thread" the 55th most highley paid footballer of all time! I am sorry but that really is a joke!

 

I wait for ends of season to do my laughing.

[LeazesMag 0]

Your argument is all well and good. Everyone else would agree also we want the best players at the club and that is not the issue here. You are choosing to ignore the most salient point of all and that it we can't afford it.

 

Let me phrase it slightly differently then, rather than telling you that you are wrong as you point out you are fully entitled to your own opinion how do you think we should finance the the visions you have. Where are we to get the money from and who realistically do you think we could attract with the club as is (my point here is mistakes have been made in the past! They have now gone and cannot be changed so how would you from this point finance success and stop the club from going in to administration as it is obvious you are happy to run on debt as long as the club does not go under)

 

Answer me that with a sensible response which is plausible and could yield results and you never know I may, just may be won over. I am not here to as you claim lay down personal assassinations, it is simply an observation made based on your way of thinking which personally I find completely and utterly immoral, however, I will keep these opinions to myself and allow you to try and get your point across by way of a reasonable plan for the club without further prejudice to your personality!

 

my answer is you speculate to accumulate. Nobody in football "saves the money up to buy footballers or only spends their profits on new signings". Is this what you mean ? This is not the "real" footballing world. EVery club has debts. Having debts in football is the way it is, its a shit industry and completely different to the "normal" financial rules and scenarios.

 

People like you can preach on about your idealistic views, which is a successful club that spends its profits on footballers, and the profits are large enough to constantly buy the best footballers, but in football, it doesn't work like that.

 

Debt is the name of the game I'm afraid.

 

The alternative is selling your best clubs to others who are smaller than you but recognise how success is achieved, rather than sitting in an ivory tower and putting the football world to rights and claiming the higher ground. The basic starting point is supporters, sponsors, advertisers, TV, the best footballers etc etc are not attracted to a club which makes a profit, they are attracted to a team which is winning on the pitch and competing at the top levels.

 

Illogical and different it may be, but that is the name of the game and how it is. There is no point in people like you pointing at the idealistic dream, football is the way it is, its a loss making "industry", accept it and deal with it.

 

If you disagree, name me clubs that succeed by only spending profits, and name me any NUFC team you like of any period who has challenged the top teams by only spending profits and nothing else.

 

The other major point also is this. These message boards, and in real life, produce plenty of people who are quite happy to say "if Ashley wasn't here we would have gone bust and out of existence". Apart from that being absolute shit, the fact also is they wanted rid of the last owners because they thought "anyone would do better than Fred" [with the revenues] but were too stupid to realise it was the Halls and Shepherd and the policies they adopted who built up these revenues. Now we have an owner who is not speculating, so the revenues have changed, leading to a "more efficient business", and people are latching onto this because it is the opposite of what the old owners did, who they "hate", so they want to justify it. So stop moving the goalposts. Not one single person who is now harping on about the finance, said at the time, using some sort of miraculous foresight, that this is why we needed a new owner to compete with Man City because they were going to be taken over by a bunch of Arabs. Not one.

 

This scouting around for cheaper players to replace the quality ones you sell is just an idealistic dream too, it just doesn't work, it won't work. Sell your best players and you go downwards, in the vast majority of cases. That's the way it is.

 

I don't know what "mistakes in the past" you are referring to [another cliche which always makes me smile] but from where I'm sitting, taking a club from one foot in the 3rd division, with a cow shed of a stadium, into one of the biggest clubs in europe, with one of the best grounds, filling it every week, qualifying for europe regularly, attracting top footballers including a world record transfer, doesn't suggest to me that they made too many "mistakes". Some maybe, of course, but not many.

 

I just know that you won't take this on board, but give me flak for posting the "same old nonsense" or however you want to label it, but unfortunately it is right and although at the moment you don't want to see it, in time you will realise the truth. The club is in decline, stand still, don't pay the going rate for wages, sell your best players, and you are in decline.

 

Take heed sunshine, because this is something you should take note of, before branding me "the sort of person that I am" or whatever you were trying to say. I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt, I'm not trying to "wind you up" or any other childish accusation, I'm saying what over 40 years of supporting this football club has shown me. Ignore it if you choose, but eventually, one day, you will realise that I am right.

 

Well GeeForce ? No reply ? Why not ? I answered you ? Are you going to reply sensibly and constructively, or show us "what sort of person you really are " ?

 

I am afraid you missed my points by so much i felt it pointless to bother with you anymore.

 

As for a loss making industry you seem reluctant to accept that whilst this may be the norm, the amount of borrowings that can be made by anyone club is not infinite. You think that a loss making industry can continue to run building up more and more debt, living off borrowings and increasing interest payments on these borrowings year on year. What do you think happens when the clubs have no more equity left to remortgage, the season ticket sales are mortgaged for future years to come and borrowings can not be further increased? How do you then think that rising interest payments are to be met? Outside investment I hear you say, not when Ashley has already poured his own money in. You say that Ashley will not let the club go under because of this investment he has made and you think it is right that rather than him attempt to make it a financially viable business he just ploughs it full of money until he has zero personal wealth, he folds and so does the club. If it was your business, and it was telephones for example, would you do that to keep your staff in jobs and customers happy, of course not, so why is it acceptable for you to expect that from him.

 

Or are you living in hope that during the above period someone will come in and make Ashley a ridiculous offer for a club which is ridled with debt and full of over paid, under worked players?

 

Your argument, whether the norm or not, has no logic whatsoever. You speculate to accumulate which I do agree with to a point but you have to have the money to do that in the first place. The club was mortgaged to the hilt and you are whinging cos this is being paid off and we are effectively solvent, I just can't get my head round your way of thinking and that is why I did not reply and will not bother replying again. As far as I am concerned we should agree to disagree!

 

the expansion of the stadium was a great move, what is your problem with looking at the future. Haven't the clubs "debts" increased since Ashley set about his "cost cutting" ?

 

Not to mention the peformance on the pitch has dived too, and is about to take a further pasting.