NJS 4411 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 GF - every "terrorist" campaign in history has ended with negotiation. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" is the biggest line of bullshit ever put out by politicians. I share your general concerns about Islam but you have to look at how things are changing in some places. There are a lot of young British Muslims who are becoming more "English" in some ways. There are countries in the middle east who have stepped back from fundamentalism in the last 10 or 15 years. Many worries remain but the way forward imo is to encourage an inclusive worls which Fuckwit Bush is opposed to. If you watched The Power of Nightmares you should know how hatred on both sides is fuelled deliberately by the Bush and Bin Laden interests for their own agendas. As with the rest of history it will be the sensible moderates who change things over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) GF - every "terrorist" campaign in history has ended with negotiation. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" is the biggest line of bullshit ever put out by politicians. probably correct, they know it and they feed off it ... hence why it continues to come back, so why do you not advocate a firmer line ? As you have just insinuated the opposite earlier ,,,,, I share your general concerns about Islam but you have to look at how things are changing in some places. There are a lot of young British Muslims who are becoming more "English" in some ways. There are countries in the middle east who have stepped back from fundamentalism in the last 10 or 15 years. Many worries remain but the way forward imo is to encourage an inclusive worls which Fuckwit Bush is opposed to. If you watched The Power of Nightmares you should know how hatred on both sides is fuelled deliberately by the Bush and Bin Laden interests for their own agendas. As with the rest of history it will be the sensible moderates who change things over time. 71432[/snapback] General concerns ? Far bigger than that, it's the communism of the 21st century and the biggest danger to world peace, fighting an unseen enemy from within. As GF says, OBL etc just want us dead unless we follow them. Now in my view, if that is their aim we cannot afford them to be free and as with alll terrorists must get them first. Fighting a war within our own countries for contol and rule of our own countries Edited December 26, 2005 by LeazesMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4411 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 As I said the firmer line you advocate has always escalated the conflict - thats why I don't think its right to go down that path. The Isarel/Palestine conflict is a more "traditional" conflict which has seen a lot of progress in my lifetime due to compromise. Now I accept that Bin Laden is different in that there is no "concrete" aim but you have to realise that the threat is massively overstated to pander to interests. I'm not belittling the London bomb - there pretty close to me as I work close to Liverpool St - but the idea that thousands of Muslims are making bombs as we speak bent on holy war is paranoid fantasy. Yes there will be some but no way near enough to justify in any way the measures I'm sure you would like to see. As I think it was Rob argued on another thread the way to "control" our country is through intelligence gathering and building links to communities. Everything you advocate would lead to more conflict and you wouldn't be happy with your "safe" country in those circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 As I said the firmer line you advocate has always escalated the conflict - thats why I don't think its right to go down that path. The Isarel/Palestine conflict is a more "traditional" conflict which has seen a lot of progress in my lifetime due to compromise. Now I accept that Bin Laden is different in that there is no "concrete" aim but you have to realise that the threat is massively overstated to pander to interests. I'm not belittling the London bomb - there pretty close to me as I work close to Liverpool St - but the idea that thousands of Muslims are making bombs as we speak bent on holy war is paranoid fantasy. Yes there will be some but no way near enough to justify in any way the measures I'm sure you would like to see. As I think it was Rob argued on another thread the way to "control" our country is through intelligence gathering and building links to communities. Everything you advocate would lead to more conflict and you wouldn't be happy with your "safe" country in those circumstances. 71435[/snapback] As "intelligence gathering" means more civil servants, coppers on the beat etc etc I doubt very much Rob means this at all, because fron where I am sitting Rob is only one of a few who appear to just want to give in because they can't be bothered to tackle it, or naively appeal to their better nature and hope they go away etc They won't. And BL's aim is also quite clear I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 my father in law. You're married? I feel sorry for your wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 my father in law. You're married? I feel sorry for your wife. 71437[/snapback] go back to school son, you obviously had shit teachers, unless you are still there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] Is this your way avoiding the question? None of the london bombers were from the middle east. Try to get your facts right you donkey! I'm guessing you thought countries like Pakistan is in the middle east?. You're a joke, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] Is this your way avoiding the question? None of the london bombers were from the middle east. Try to get your facts right you donkey! I'm guessing you [b thought countries like Pakistan is in the middle east? [/b] . You're a joke, mate. 71440[/snapback] deliberately pedantic ..... [or is it in the far east ? looks a canny distance from Japan and China to me ] no need for the insults Omar, why not make a contribution instead, or are you not bothered ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 or are you not bothered ........ Well...at least you've got one thing right..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 "GF - every "terrorist" campaign in history has ended with negotiation. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" is the biggest line of bullshit ever put out by politicians." EXACTLY!!!!! How many revered statesmen and politicains have "POB" (prisoner of the British) on their CV's - hundreds and if the French & the Yanks had negotiated with Ho Chi Minh instead of fighting would Vietnam have been such a disaster? I doubt it........ And right now we;re doing the same thing in Iraq and we're looking forward to starting on Iran Madness, sheer bloody madness................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend 71443[/snapback] no, I'm not ducking anything, no one suggested the london bombers were exlusively middle eastern ? We are talking about muslim extremists, not just middle eastern, but African ... anywhere .... just terrorists attempting to destroy our way of life in our own country. Now, IMO, appeasing them [as you would do, in your normal I'm all right Jack mode] won't work, as tearing our own country apart and bombing it, in the process of attempting to defeat them, is exactly what they want us to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend 71443[/snapback] no, I'm not ducking anything, no one suggested the london bombers were exlusively middle eastern ? this quote! I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain Make up excuses all you like, we all knew we were on about the London bombing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 "GF - every "terrorist" campaign in history has ended with negotiation. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" is the biggest line of bullshit ever put out by politicians." EXACTLY!!!!! How many revered statesmen and politicains have "POB" (prisoner of the British) on their CV's - hundreds and if the French & the Yanks had negotiated with Ho Chi Minh instead of fighting would Vietnam have been such a disaster? I doubt it........ And right now we;re doing the same thing in Iraq and we're looking forward to starting on Iran Madness, sheer bloody madness................... 71444[/snapback] as already stated, i didn't realise the chinese were attempting to bomb innocent civilians on the streets of the usa during the time of vietnam .... this thread is about the enemy within our own country, and how to stop it. Solutions ? [although, i realise - again - in full i'm all right jack mode you won't give a toss until it turns up on your own doorstep ... ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10966 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Rob W, I don't think it's fair to say that every Terrorist campaign that has ceased was as a result of negotiation and I don't think it's fair to suggest that Bin Laden's demands can be satisfied or compromised. it's not that he wants an occupying force driven from his home land, it's not that he was autonomy, it's that he wants infidels to die... how do you negotiate that? Negotiation and conversation might work with the IRA or the Basque seperatists because they have legitimacy, they have things to lose and to gain. How exactly do you talk down a guy who plans to drive a plane into a building because he hates the west and all we stand for? these aren't our neighbours who's traditions we pompously raise an eyebrow at, these are murderers, these are fanatics who despise that which we are. There can be NO negotiations with these monsters. It will be the middle ground that wins in the end, but thats in the end, right now our values and our traditions are given second class status in our our society so as not to offend and that sickens me. would an organisation in the middle of Tehran uphold a complaint from a christian employee who finds the ban on her attire an afront to her religion? would they fuck. Negotiation is fine and dandy Rob, but there have to be two parties at the table, not just our representative sitting in an empty room facing a list of demands. it seems that their idea of give and take is to take our freedoms and give us abuse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend 71443[/snapback] no, I'm not ducking anything, no one suggested the london bombers were exlusively middle eastern ? this quote! I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain Make up excuses all you like, we all knew we were on about the London bombing. 71455[/snapback] look further back - you will see i posted a link saying there has been 36 murdered coppers in the UK since Yvonne Fletcher was shot outside the LIBYAN embassy .. not all by people of middle eastern descent Edited December 26, 2005 by LeazesMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend 71443[/snapback] no, I'm not ducking anything, no one suggested the london bombers were exlusively middle eastern ? this quote! I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain Make up excuses all you like, we all knew we were on about the London bombing. 71455[/snapback] look further back - you will see i posted a link saying there has been 36 murdered coppers in the UK since Yvonne Fletcher was shot outside the LIBYAN embassy .. not all by people of middle eastern descent 71458[/snapback] Terrorist are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 Rob W, I don't think it's fair to say that every Terrorist campaign that has ceased was as a result of negotiation and I don't think it's fair to suggest that Bin Laden's demands can be satisfied or compromised. it's not that he wants an occupying force driven from his home land, it's not that he was autonomy, it's that he wants infidels to die... how do you negotiate that? he won't reply satisfactorily mate, because he doesn't want to, and can't Negotiation and conversation might work with the IRA or the Basque seperatists because they have legitimacy, they have things to lose and to gain. How exactly do you talk down a guy who plans to drive a plane into a building because he hates the west and all we stand for? these aren't our neighbours who's traditions we pompously raise an eyebrow at, these are murderers, these are fanatics who despise that which we are. There can be NO negotiations with these monsters. It will be the middle ground that wins in the end, but thats in the end, right now our values and our traditions are given second class status in our our society so as not to offend and that sickens me. would an organisation in the middle of Tehran uphold a complaint from a christian employee who finds the ban on her attire an afront to her religion? would they fuck. Negotiation is fine and dandy Rob, but there have to be two parties at the table, not just our representative sitting in an empty room facing a list of demands. it seems that their idea of give and take is to take our freedoms and give us abuse... 71457[/snapback] amen again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain How many of the London bombers were from the middle east you daft bugger?! 71431[/snapback] is that a serious response to not just my question, but all the others in this thread ? 71433[/snapback] i think its a pretty good answer that you are ducking my friend 71443[/snapback] no, I'm not ducking anything, no one suggested the london bombers were exlusively middle eastern ? this quote! I mean only 20-30 years ago there were no middle eastern terrorists on the loose in britain Make up excuses all you like, we all knew we were on about the London bombing. 71455[/snapback] look further back - you will see i posted a link saying there has been 36 murdered coppers in the UK since Yvonne Fletcher was shot outside the LIBYAN embassy .. not all by people of middle eastern descent 71458[/snapback] Terrorist are they? 71460[/snapback] some are, some aren't. This is getting away grom the point Omar, which is all about the security of the UK and the fact that the govt are attempting to put through measures that would help and are being prevented from doing so by the pc brigade, there is no other way to call this than point out that the pc brigade and do-gooders are helping to shield those attempting to hide from surveillance, capture etc Then they will complain when the wrong guy is shot next time .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 some are, some aren't. so the person who shot that Brazillian guy is also a terrorist? No, i bet you don't think so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 some are, some aren't. so the person who shot that Brazillian guy is also a terrorist? No, i bet you don't think so! 71463[/snapback] no, don't be daft, british coppers aren't terrorists, or corrupt, like others ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 some are, some aren't. so the person who shot that Brazillian guy is also a terrorist? No, i bet you don't think so! 71463[/snapback] no, don't be daft, british coppers aren't terrorists, or corrupt, like others ! 71464[/snapback] Mate...stop embarrassing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) some are, some aren't. so the person who shot that Brazillian guy is also a terrorist? No, i bet you don't think so! 71463[/snapback] no, don't be daft, british coppers aren't terrorists, or corrupt, like others ! 71464[/snapback] Mate...stop embarrassing yourself. 71465[/snapback] what ? do you think british cops are trigger happy yobs like some middle eastern ones ? Edited December 26, 2005 by LeazesMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wor Al 0 Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 some are, some aren't. so the person who shot that Brazillian guy is also a terrorist? No, i bet you don't think so! 71463[/snapback] no, don't be daft, british coppers aren't terrorists, or corrupt, like others ! 71464[/snapback] Mate...stop embarrassing yourself. 71465[/snapback] what ? do you think british cops are trigger happy yobs like some middle eastern ones ? 71467[/snapback] I think you're a clueless prick. That's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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