Game of Thrones - *SPOILER ALERT*

[David Kelly 1260]

I admit I don't like the Shireen bit and I don't really see the reason for them going that way in the show. I don't really see it as a change of character for him, it was just a desperate move that he looked like he immediately regretted. I'm not convinced he's dead yet and if he is, I would say it's one of the worst bits of TV or film writiing I've seen. We didn't actually see him die and you don't kill off a main character off screen. I know GRRM mentioned in passing in his blog that he wrote about not finishing WOW in time for the show, that Stannis is dead but I'm still not convinced. But if he is dead, I wouldn't really see a problem with Brienne killing him. She certainly had good motive and she's a very capable warrior. Stannis is well renound as being a great general but I can't remember hearing anything about his hand to hand combat skills. Robert was main warrior in the family. His military skills admittedly weren't well shown up in the last season though. I still don't see it as a character assasination though. They may not value his part of the story as much as some but I just think the whole hatred stuff that gets peddled is way overboard. His character has not majorly changed. He burned people in the books (ok not his daughter but his wives family) too. He's really not a good guy when it comes down to it. But then again who in ASOIAF is?

 

I agree the Dorne bits so far have been poor. But arguably Tyrions bits have been better than his travelogue in the books. Although I can't understand why Jon Connington and Aegon have been omitted. I think it's clear that D&D do love him. But that love doesn't always serve him well as they've made him a bit too nice in the show.

 

I know GRRM has said they are going to be spoilers for book readers in the next season which is a shame, but they are also going to go off in their own direction in some areas. Given that they are going past the books now, I think that's the best thing they can do.

[Haydnator 45]

You're right, no one is good, truly, in this series. Maybe apart from the Starks: that are now dead. The fact that they're dead speaks for itself. I know most book readers are Stannis fans, but why I am is:

 

 

 

He's brutally honest. He doesn't lie, he doesn't exaggerate, he doesn't fib, or even bluff. It's the cold, honest truth with Stannis, because he believes that there's more value in that than there is in lies - good or bad. "Hundreds will die!" ... "Thousands..." "Mother said you fought in a battle. Did you win?" "Nope." You have to respect that Stannis will always offer you a straight and honest answer and will never sugar coat it.

He's committed to a war against four opponents; all of whom held more land and had larger armies. And he did this because - and only because he has the rightful claim to the throne. Despite anything else about him, that takes a double dose of guts and righteousness, to face overwhelming odds and low opinions simply because what you say is true.

He is the rightful king of Westeros, at least as much as Robert was. He might not be popular, but that doesn't change the fact that he is right. Tommen is an inbred Lannister, Renly was the younger brother, Balon is a crazy pirate-viking, and Robb, while honorable, tried to usurp a crown and take half of the Westeros landmass with him. And, before I hear the "Robert was a usurper", how many dynastys in British, or at least English history, have been deposed, just like the Targaryens were? Who would the rightful king/queen of Great Britain be in that case?

Melisandre. Her magic seem evil and treacherous and just sinister at times, and her visions may be grim and terrible, but she sure does put on a show. Her magic seems to be the one with the most observable power we've seen so far. I still dislike and distrust her, both as a character and her intentions, but she sure isn't an empty presence.

Davos - the Yin to Melisandre's Yang. Davos, on the other hand (pun intended), is so loyal, so good, so righteous, and so moral it hurts. He's kind, just, and loyal to a T. He always finds a smart reason to do the right thing and to be clever about it. And Stannis listens to Davos. And from time to time the best of Davos seems to rub off on the otherwise cold and indifferent Stannis.

He's just. "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." You might complain that he is more "lawful neutral" than "lawful good," but there's no denying that Stannis lives by rules and a code. And that having a rigid and sometimes terrible code of ethics still beats total lack of any ethics seen by so many other powerful characters.

He's tragic. Many Stannis supporters suspect that he won't win or even survive, but - like Atticus Finch - they come to support him anyhow. He's not a Luke Skywalker boy of destiny like Jon Snow is, he doesn't have powerful dragons like Daenarys. He doesn't have Lannister gold or Tyrell charm. He's not popular or likable - to the people of Westeros or even much of the series' audience. He's probably as doomed as a character can be, but he fights all the same.

He's never been given a chance. At anything. He's a loser in everything in his life. Stannis mentions how Robert always bested him in everything they did together. He's has a tragically disfigured daughter, the creepiest wife in Westeros, no real friends, and he's never been accepted by anyone for anything. Robert even gave Storm's End to Renly! And Stannis has always taken it in stride and done his duty. Now that it's his turn to finally be the big fish, no one is even willing to hear him out.

Finally, Stannis Baratheon was Ned Stark's pick for king. Ned died because of this endorsement, and he rightfully claimed that the crown belonged to Stannis. If Ned Stark meant anything to you, and his honour worth the breaths he took to speak, then Ned's choice of Stannis for King has to have some weight.

 

 

 

Yeah I agree with you that Tyrion's arc has been better in the show and I agree with you that I was surprised they've completely cut out Jon Connington & Aegon/Griff & Young Griff as well.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Haydnator

[aimaad22 4222]

Agree with most of what David says.

 

The series going off in a different/faster direction than the books is still pretty infuriating for readers though.

[David Kelly 1260]

You're right, no one is good, truly, in this series. Maybe apart from the Starks: that are now dead. The fact that they're dead speaks for itself. I know most book readers are Stannis fans, but why I am is:

 

 

 

He's brutally honest. He doesn't lie, he doesn't exaggerate, he doesn't fib, or even bluff. It's the cold, honest truth with Stannis, because he believes that there's more value in that than there is in lies - good or bad. "Hundreds will die!" ... "Thousands..." "Mother said you fought in a battle. Did you win?" "Nope." You have to respect that Stannis will always offer you a straight and honest answer and will never sugar coat it.

 

He's committed to a war against four opponents; all of whom held more land and had larger armies. And he did this because - and only because he has the rightful claim to the throne. Despite anything else about him, that takes a double dose of guts and righteousness, to face overwhelming odds and low opinions simply because what you say is true.

 

He is the rightful king of Westeros, at least as much as Robert was. He might not be popular, but that doesn't change the fact that he is right. Tommen is an inbred Lannister, Renly was the younger brother, Balon is a crazy pirate-viking, and Robb, while honorable, tried to usurp a crown and take half of the Westeros landmass with him. And, before I hear the "Robert was a usurper", how many dynastys in British, or at least English history, have been deposed, just like the Targaryens were? Who would the rightful king/queen of Great Britain be in that case?

 

Melisandre. Her magic seem evil and treacherous and just sinister at times, and her visions may be grim and terrible, but she sure does put on a show. Her magic seems to be the one with the most observable power we've seen so far. I still dislike and distrust her, both as a character and her intentions, but she sure isn't an empty presence.

 

Davos - the Yin to Melisandre's Yang. Davos, on the other hand (pun intended), is so loyal, so good, so righteous, and so moral it hurts. He's kind, just, and loyal to a T. He always finds a smart reason to do the right thing and to be clever about it. And Stannis listens to Davos. And from time to time the best of Davos seems to rub off on the otherwise cold and indifferent Stannis.

 

He's just. "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." You might complain that he is more "lawful neutral" than "lawful good," but there's no denying that Stannis lives by rules and a code. And that having a rigid and sometimes terrible code of ethics still beats total lack of any ethics seen by so many other powerful characters.

 

He's tragic. Many Stannis supporters suspect that he won't win or even survive, but - like Atticus Finch - they come to support him anyhow. He's not a Luke Skywalker boy of destiny like Jon Snow is, he doesn't have powerful dragons like Daenarys. He doesn't have Lannister gold or Tyrell charm. He's not popular or likable - to the people of Westeros or even much of the series' audience. He's probably as doomed as a character can be, but he fights all the same.

 

He's never been given a chance. At anything. He's a loser in everything in his life. Stannis mentions how Robert always bested him in everything they did together. He's has a tragically disfigured daughter, the creepiest wife in Westeros, no real friends, and he's never been accepted by anyone for anything. Robert even gave Storm's End to Renly! And Stannis has always taken it in stride and done his duty. Now that it's his turn to finally be the big fish, no one is even willing to hear him out.

 

Finally, Stannis Baratheon was Ned Stark's pick for king. Ned died because of this endorsement, and he rightfully claimed that the crown belonged to Stannis. If Ned Stark meant anything to you, and his honour worth the breaths he took to speak, then Ned's choice of Stannis for King has to have some weight.

 

 

 

Yeah I agree with you that Tyrion's arc has been better in the show and I agree with you that I was surprised they've completely cut out Jon Connington & Aegon/Griff & Young Griff as well.

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying other than he's not really any more deserving of the crown than anyone else. As you say in the history of Westerous, as well in real life, many dynasty's have been deposed. The Baratheons despossed the Targaryians (who had deposed the more regional kings before that, including the Starks) so if you're going on lineage you could argue just about any of the major houses (as well as a fair few minor ones) have as much right as the other. Stannis believes that he's right and in that sense his quest is more honorable than Renley's or Balons or arguably even Robbs (although Robb was standing up for his people rather than having any desire for power). But Joffrey and Tommen both believe(d) that they are Roberts heirs so from their point of view their claims are just as just. Of course Tywin and Cersei knew the truth so their motives were all about power but not everyone who fought on their side had that knowledge. At the end of the day for me, it's not about who has the right to have the throne it's about the battles (both military and political) that happen on the way to get there. Clearly Jon and Denerys are the heroes of the story but of course a lot of peole root for the bad guy. I'd be very happy to see Petyr, Varys, Bronn or Stannis on the throne as much as those two.

 

Stannis also employed Mel to create shaddow deamons to kill Renly and Ser Courtnay Penrose (yes I had to look that one up), he's murdered his own wives family and tried to kill his own bastard nephew. There's nothing honourable about any of those acts for me. Stannis is a flawed character in the books and in the show. He's one I do like but I suppose since he's not a POV character I don't really feel for him any more than I do for any of the others. From the books alone I think i'd have to be rooting for one of the POV characters but the show has made a lot more of the non pov characters. For all the complaints of character assination of Stannis, the show brings out more of him for me. As it does with Bronn, Littlefinger, Varys, Osha etc. Of course I watched the first two seasons before I started the books so I'm no doubt clouded by that. As I say though, I'm much more interested in the journey than who ends up on the throne. Personally my favourite characters from the books are probably now Theon and Jamie. They have had the most interesting journeys to where they have reached as charcters.

[David Kelly 1260]

Agree with most of what David says.

 

The series going off in a different/faster direction than the books is still pretty infuriating for readers though.

The fact that I now don't know what is going to happen in the series actually excites me. The last two seasons I've known pretty much everything that was going to happen and that has spoilled the show a bit for me. If they were just going to go right along the same story as the books then this coming season would be a massive spoiler for Winds of Winter. GRRM has said this season will contain some spoilers for the book but also that they are diverging in some areas. At least that means when the book comes out (finally) we won't know which bits are spoilers and which bits are show only. It's not perfect but unfortunately it's what we're left with because of his writing speed.

[aimaad22 4222]

Yeah thats a bit of a saving grace here perhaps. Lets see how it pans out.

 

The next book had better pick up the pace as well in terms of moving the story along.

[NJS 4411]

He'll probably die before finishing the whole thing and it'll be left to the TV show to conclude it.

 

(I realise he's supposedly filled them in on his intended ending).

[Monkeys Fist 43066]

Someone remind me please, how did the

little, stabby Stark

become

blind

?

[David Kelly 1260]

Someone remind me please, how did the

little, stabby Stark

become

blind

?

jaquen did it to her after she butchered merrin trant when he tried to nonce her

[Monkeys Fist 43066]

Cheers

[The Fish 10963]

 

that scene with the Red Woman at the end, would reviving Jon Snow mean her death? I mean, it looks like she's been using magic to keep her looking young and slutty, so would using that magic on Snow mean she has to be all old and saggy. Cos if that's the case, I think I want Jon to stay dead...

 

[trophyshy 7084]

 

I think she will actually give her power and her life for JS to get his ass back to Mars. I also postulate that JS will form an alliance with the dwa and dragon tits to defend the south from the shitewalkers after the north is overrun. This being GOT I think the shitewalkers will prevail and everyone will die at the end.

 

[Gemmill 46027]

 

Waddup Throneys?

[trophyshy 7084]

You'd love the latest series,

production values have plummeted and they're just rattling through the story like they are fucking desperate to get it all over with. Yeah, kill that stupid cunt off, move along over there, explain what these cunts are up to, get on with it you fucking pansies no one gives a fuck.

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by trophyshy

[David Kelly 1260]

 

that scene with the Red Woman at the end, would reviving Jon Snow mean her death? I mean, it looks like she's been using magic to keep her looking young and slutty, so would using that magic on Snow mean she has to be all old and saggy. Cos if that's the case, I think I want Jon to stay dead...

 

In the books she uses magic to disguse Mance Raider as someone else so that Stannis doesn't kill him. Now that's not the route they've gone down in the show (I'm pretty certain of that) but I'm assuming that it's that same magic that they showed and completely ruined my wank on Monday. I think they that scene was to show that she is losing her faith, after what she saw in the fire of Stannis and now apparently Jon being false, and also to set up her magical abilities once again. Whether or not they'll be used to resurect Jon or not I'm not sure. But first things things first she needs to get her disguise back on to resurect my self abuse!

 

 

By the way it's getting ridiculous that this whole thread is now just covered in spoiler covers. Surely anyone viewing it has to be expecting spoilers by now?

[trophyshy 7084]

 

aye, it's fucking daft like

 

[David Kelly 1260]

 

aye, it's fucking daft like

 

isn't it

[trophyshy 7084]

@@Tooj

could you perhaps just write 'spoilers inside' in the thread title thus giving us carte blanche?

 

[The Fish 10963]

 

In the books she uses magic to disguse Mance Raider as someone else so that Stannis doesn't kill him. Now that's not the route they've gone down in the show (I'm pretty certain of that) but I'm assuming that it's that same magic that they showed and completely ruined my wank on Monday. I think they that scene was to show that she is losing her faith, after what she saw in the fire of Stannis and now apparently Jon being false, and also to set up her magical abilities once again. Whether or not they'll be used to resurect Jon or not I'm not sure. But first things things first she needs to get her disguise back on to resurect my self abuse!

 

 

By the way it's getting ridiculous that this whole thread is now just covered in spoiler covers. Surely anyone viewing it has to be expecting spoilers by now?

 

 

I definitely think he'll be resurrected, but I reckon it could be after his body is burnt? in a Dragon Tits style?

 

 

Oh and

 

I generally do this to annoy Gemmill now, because even though he doesn't enjoy the show, he'll still read the thread and be unable to resist opening the spoilers...

 

Isn't that right Gemmil, lad?

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by The Fish

[Gemmill 46027]

I like my Throneys muzzled.

[David Kelly 1260]

 

I definitely think he'll be resurrected, but I reckon it could be after his body is burnt? in a Dragon Tits style?

 

 

Oh and

 

I generally do this to annoy Gemmill now, because even though he doesn't enjoy the show, he'll still read the thread and be unable to resist opening the spoilers...

 

Isn't that right Gemmil, lad?

 

I've no doubt he's coming back, he's the main character in the story along with dragon tits. The whole Ice and Fire thing makes me wonder if his resurection might not come from Ice rather than Fire. I can imagine the white walkers may have the power to resurect him more than just by turning him into a wight but I can't think of any motivation for them to do it. That leads me to think that maybe the likeliest route back for him is through Bran. I've seen a few photos from the next episode and he's definitely in it so it could start from there. Bran being able to see the past vie the wierwood tree also brings the possibilty of confirming the long held theory on Jon's parentage. This in turn may give Bran reason for resurecting Jon rather than his father or brother. Or it might just be that it's too late for him to save Ned & Robb but not Jon.

 

[The Fish 10963]

 

I've no doubt he's coming back, he's the main character in the story along with dragon tits. The whole Ice and Fire thing makes me wonder if his resurection might not come from Ice rather than Fire. I can imagine the white walkers may have the power to resurect him more than just by turning him into a wight but I can't think of any motivation for them to do it. That leads me to think that maybe the likeliest route back for him is through Bran. I've seen a few photos from the next episode and he's definitely in it so it could start from there. Bran being able to see the past vie the wierwood tree also brings the possibilty of confirming the long held theory on Jon's parentage. This in turn may give Bran reason for resurecting Jon rather than his father or brother. Or it might just be that it's too late for him to save Ned & Robb but not Jon.

 

 

Agree with the last bit, we know from the books Bran can see into the past, but he can't affect it.

 

Do you know the three headed dragon theory?

 

[David Kelly 1260]

 

Agree with the last bit, we know from the books Bran can see into the past, but he can't affect it.

 

Do you know the three headed dragon theory?

 

Yeah I'm just guessing that Bran will be able affect something whether it be the past or bringing someone back to life somehow.

 

I've not read much about the three headed dragon theory but I think it basically revolves around Jon and dragon tits being two of them and the other being one of various other posibility's. Tyrion being the main character I've heard mentioned particularly in conjunction with him not really being Tywins son but actually the result of the mad king raping his mother.

 

[Tooj 17]

@@Tooj

could you perhaps just write 'spoilers inside' in the thread title thus giving us carte blanche?

 

Aye I will do.

[The Fish 10963]

 

Yeah I'm just guessing that Bran will be able affect something whether it be the past or bringing someone back to life somehow.

 

I've not read much about the three headed dragon theory but I think it basically revolves around Jon and dragon tits being two of them and the other being one of various other posibility's. Tyrion being the main character I've heard mentioned particularly in conjunction with him not really being Tywins son but actually the result of the mad king raping his mother.

 

Aye that's the jist of it.

 

I'd like to think GRRM has it all planned out, but it's just taking him ages to actually get all the ducks in a row. However, It could be that this has got away from him a bit and he's got no idea how to tie all the loose threads together.

 

If this were any other author I'd predict John is resurrected, he joins Daenerys and Tyrion to amass an army to return to defeat the White Walkers, albeit temporarily. Then Daenerys begins her rule with Snow and the Imp as husband and advisor. I mean, Snow would bring the North with him, Tyrion will be the last remaining Lannister able to hold title, blah blah blah

 

That scenario is far to neat and happy to be what Martin has in store.