Game of Thrones - *SPOILER ALERT*

[The Fish 10963]

13 minutes ago, ewerk said:

How do you know she didn't take the face of a wight to get that close to the NK? The man threw an ice bolt hundreds of metres into the air. What chance would John have had one on one?

Because she dropped from a height to attack him (unless she's now able to leap 6 foot in the air?). Also, if she'd taken a zombie face, there's no way the show wouldn't have had that as a reveal.

re: Jon v NK. That's kind of my thinking; Jon's an annoyance to the NK, rather than his focus. Jon attacking him with all his skill and strength, but being parried and pushed away with relative ease. Not to drag more ire my way, but the NK should have been like Thanos. Not just the leader of a massive army, but apparently unbeatable one-on-one. One idea could have been that when he dropped from his dead-dragon, rather than falling outside, he lands inside the courtyard, the living see him and press towards him. They're intercepted by the generals and weight of numbers, but one or two get through. NK despatches a couple of the "heroes" (Grey Worm & Brienne? giving them satisfying endings) until Jon emerges and goes toe-to-toe with NK. They spar a bit, but it's clear Jon is comfortably outmatched. Then, with NK looming above a fallen Jon, about to destroy this annoyance once and for all, that's when Arya leaps from somewhere to play out the final death pretty much as we saw in the garden.

I get that the above is lurching 90mph into fan-fic territory, I just I think that while the episode was incredible as a spectacle, it let itself down tactically, logically and narratively. When much of the series has subverted expectations without it being outside the logic of the universe in which it's set, this last episode was jarring.

Edited May 1, 2019 by The Fish

[Renton 21980]

56 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I get that the above is lurching 90mph into fan-fic territory,

 

No, I think you should have got the job writing the script. 

 

Not really.

 

I thought it was fine as it was. It was refreshing not to have a Jon vs NK bore fest fight you advocate. The Arya plot was actually skilfully foretold and given her abilities quite plausible imo. Bran and the red woman had a plan and it worked.

 

Seems strange people are complaining not enough cast members were killed on an episode of GoT! Half a dozen important characters died. Do you want them all dead before the end? Who knows what the fate of them will be in the remaining episodes. Personally Im also glad the dead are out the way now and we can have a fight of the living. 

[Andrew 4856]

Major characters have very rarely been killed in battle in GoT and its been continued here, they die unexpectedly in smaller circumstances, ambushes and assassinations (  ) or as a result of the game.

 

I'm far more interested to see how the remaining threads play out now that the "big bad" is out of the way and we're back to relatively human stories, the lannister siblings(will bronn do it? Who will kill cersei? Where are Tyrions true loyalties between his family, his queen and someone who he is clearly affectionate for as setup last ep in Sansa), Jon and Danearys(does Jon even want the throne is he can take it? Can he prove his claim? Will Dany accept it?), CLEGANEBOWL, how are the major houses going to be re situated since half of them are completely dead, the mormonts, freys, baratheons, tyrells, tarlys, boltons and umbers are all out of legitimate heirs off the top of my head.

 

An assassin killing a king in GoT makes far far more sense than a massive battle and a duel with an honourable warrior doing the deed.

[strawb 4378]

More excited about cleganebowl than the fight with the ice zombies tbh

 

I think Tyrion kills Cersei and Jamie kills dragon wench and Jon ends up on the throne

[sammynb 3508]

My money is on Arya to kill Cersei (she is top of her list) with the hound to kill his brother so she can get to her.

And Sam to kill Danearys.

[Andrew 4856]

3 minutes ago, sammynb said:

My money is on Arya to kill Cersei (she is top of her list) with the hound to kill his brother so she can get to her.

And Sam to kill Danearys.

 

The one prophecy that has rung true so far is the one made to Cersei which says that her younger brother will kill her, which could be either of them or maybe Arya wearing a face.

 

Buuuut that bit hasn't been in the show yet so it may not be in at all.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Some spicy predictions. Is the consensus that Danerys is getting wacked then?

[Andrew 4856]

39 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Some spicy predictions. Is the consensus that Danerys is getting wacked then?

 

Final shot of the show, Danaerys sits on the throne during her coronation, cut to Bronn with the crossbow on in the balconies somewhere, pulls the trigger, cut to black.

 

Alternative, Dany gets the throne, but the foreshadowing of Jenny of oldstones comes to be pass and she has lost absolutely everyone who ever meant anything to her in pursuit of it. Tyrion is loyal to Sansa (or dead) Jons dead, Greyworm and Missandei leave, Jorahs already dead. She has no one left, but she has the throne.

[The Fish 10963]

21 hours ago, Renton said:

 

No, I think you should have got the job writing the script. 

 

Not really.

 

I thought it was fine as it was. It was refreshing not to have a Jon vs NK bore fest fight you advocate. The Arya plot was actually skilfully foretold and given her abilities quite plausible imo. Bran and the red woman had a plan and it worked.

 

Seems strange people are complaining not enough cast members were killed on an episode of GoT! Half a dozen important characters died. Do you want them all dead before the end? Who knows what the fate of them will be in the remaining episodes. Personally Im also glad the dead are out the way now and we can have a fight of the living. 

It would subvert expectations though, Jon has been set up as this phenomenal swordsman and protagonist of the show. Having him have his arse handed to him by the NK, and the glory stolen by Arya, would have been surprising and satisfying. Instead, there's a bunch of questions about how Arya managed to get past the legions of undead and surprise the NK when the NK is so omniscient he was even aware of the projection of Bran.

 

Killing more important people in this episode would have made sense. Jorah's death was a satisfying end to his story, and I would have thought a recently knighted Brienne would have also been a satisfying end to her story. As it stands, Grey Worm and Brienne's stories have surely come to their logical conclusion. Sam should have died an all, the useless wet fart was swarmed by the dead at least twice that I can remember.

 

Agree that the fight against Cersei is way more interesting than the fight against what is essentially a force of nature. You can't really have Bronn, Tyrion and the Hound dropping hilarious witticisms to annoy the zombies.

So many character conflicts; Jaime and Cersei, Tyrion and Cersei, Arya and Cersei, The Hound and the Mountain, Jon and Dany, Sansa and Dany, Sansa and Jon, Tyrion and Dany, Bran and weed killer.

Re: the houses that are left; Stark, Lannister have a few people. Aryn has Robin, Greyjoy has Yara, Tarly kind of has Sam (not sure if there's a point in the Nights Watch anymore). Baratheon only has a bastard, Dorne has no one, Mormont doesn't have anybody left alive, and there aren't any Tyrell's.

[ewerk 31195]

When was Jon set up as a ‘phenomenal swordsman’?

[The Fish 10963]

Just now, ewerk said:

When was Jon set up as a ‘phenomenal swordsman’?

All the battles he fought and Ramsay Bolton says "The way people in the North talk about you, you're the greatest swordsman who ever walked"

[Renton 21980]

23 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Arya managed to get past the legions of undead and surprise the NK when the NK is so omniscient he was even aware of the projection of Bran.

 

Agree with most of what you said but this raises a point. It's been clear that the NK has been telepathically linked to Bran since he became the 3ER. Arya however is a no-one, maybe this is what allowed her to get close without him sensing it. Your criticism there actually makes it more plausible to me. 

 

One tiny point, not sure Dorne have nobody left. Iirc Ellaria is still alive albeit mightily pissed off by now. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Renton

[ewerk 31195]

5 minutes ago, The Fish said:

All the battles he fought and Ramsay Bolton says "The way people in the North talk about you, you're the greatest swordsman who ever walked"

But one on one combat he hasn’t beaten anyone of note?

[Monkeys Fist 43062]

Watching telly with Fish must be a right fuck on. 

 

Mrs Fish “ Game of Thrones is on in 5 minutes Fish, come sit down”

Fish- “ Ok, but first, read this short novel detailing the family trees of every character that’s ever appeared, then we need to set up this floor map of Westeros to accurately plot the movements of each character, and I mean each character, there’s these cards to look through which show the powers and skills of all magic weaponry, then we’ll have a quick listen to my podcast “ A Game of Two Halves Please Barman”, before the show…”

Mrs. Fish …

[ewerk 31195]

Particularly when he just MAKES SHIT UP!

[Howay 12496]

On 5/1/2019 at 12:12, The Fish said:

Because she dropped from a height to attack him (unless she's now able to leap 6 foot in the air?). Also, if she'd taken a zombie face, there's no way the show wouldn't have had that as a reveal.

I thought she come past the White Walkers who were standing about like back up dancers? There’s a shot where one of them has their hair flicked up as I assume she burns it past him to do the Night King in. 

I’ve seen the wearing the face of a White Walker thing a few times but I feel like the Night King likely controls them too (since they all shattered when he died too) or at the very least would have a connection to them where he’d notice Arya hoying one of their faces on. 

 

The Night King was cocky as fuck by the way  The smile when Dany tried to burn him and then the fact he was just strutting about everywhere. For a bloke that in 8 seasons only won a direct fight against the dickless wonder he’s got some brass neck. 

[Andrew 4856]

1 hour ago, Howay said:

The Night King was cocky as fuck by the way  The smile when Dany tried to burn him and then the fact he was just strutting about everywhere. For a bloke that in 8 seasons only won a direct fight against the dickless wonder he’s got some brass neck. 

 

I liked that about him tbh, it made him an actual character with a flaw rather than some emotionless machine baddie. People have complained about him not fighting Jon as if he had any actual reason to, hes seen Jon twice(I think) before the battle of winterfell and in that time has seen him kill a white walker in two swings of a sword at hardhome and decimate dozens of wights north of the wall when they were trying to capture one last season, hes always hung back rather than risking himself, only dropping that guard when he thought he'd won.

 

He'd have been incredibly stupid to take the risk of a fight with his goal so close so he didn't, instead doing all he could to preserve his own existence whilst still achieving his goal.

[The Fish 10963]

14 hours ago, ewerk said:

But one on one combat he hasn’t beaten anyone of note?

I can only think of one that he's beaten one-on-one, bar Ramsay Bolton (who was always an archer not a swordsman) and Half-Hand who threw the fight. A White Walker.

Other than that however, he's cut swathes through Wildlings, Undead and Northmen. So he's clearly a very good fighter.

[The Fish 10963]

4 hours ago, Andrew said:

 

I liked that about him tbh, it made him an actual character with a flaw rather than some emotionless machine baddie. People have complained about him not fighting Jon as if he had any actual reason to, hes seen Jon twice(I think) before the battle of winterfell and in that time has seen him kill a white walker in two swings of a sword at hardhome and decimate dozens of wights north of the wall when they were trying to capture one last season, hes always hung back rather than risking himself, only dropping that guard when he thought he'd won.

 

He'd have been incredibly stupid to take the risk of a fight with his goal so close so he didn't, instead doing all he could to preserve his own existence whilst still achieving his goal.

Agree he'd be stupid to have a fight if he didn't need to. And if he'd been set up as physically weak, but geet good at magic, then fair dos. But the way he was presented was as a formidable opponent both physically and magically. 

That's why I was saying have him fall into the melee in the courtyard. Definitely not part of his plan, so he'd have to fight his way clear, and Jon being the person who give him most trouble elevates them both as characters. Should he casually cut Grey Worm and Brienne down, then Jon provides more of a problem. It shows NK is really good, still better than Jon, but Jon must be really shit hot at swordplay too. Then Arya pops up, jumpy jump, catchy catchy, stabby stabby, we all go home happy. 7 or 8 emotional pops to end the episode. Plus the fall out from GW & Brienne's deaths next episode.

[Renton 21980]

We get it Dave. You're a better script writer than those who wrote arguably the best TV series of all time! 

[ewerk 31195]

What you're suggesting is a bit cowardly. They go at it one on one and he's getting beaten so his little sister jumps in. The way they did it was that it was the plan all along, a much better plot.

[The Fish 10963]

On 5/3/2019 at 08:35, Renton said:

We get it Dave. You're a better script writer than those who wrote arguably the best TV series of all time! 

I 100% said that. 

 

On 5/3/2019 at 08:38, ewerk said:

What you're suggesting is a bit cowardly. They go at it one on one and he's getting beaten so his little sister jumps in. The way they did it was that it was the plan all along, a much better plot.

No it isn't, it's in-keeping with their storylines. GW is fearless and Brienne is noble, Jon is noble, brave, and foolhardy, Arya is sneaky and is putting her family first.

 

I get that it was the plan all along, but if laymen like me can spot huge gaps in logic and feasibility of the plan, then it's not a very good plan. And the suggestions I make don't deviate from the central idea of the original plan, they just sand down some of the bits that jarred with me.

[Renton 21980]

15 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I 100% said that. 

 

No it isn't, it's in-keeping with their storylines. GW is fearless and Brienne is noble, Jon is noble, brave, and foolhardy, Arya is sneaky and is putting her family first.

 

I get that it was the plan all along, but if laymen like me can spot huge gaps in logic and feasibility of the plan, then it's not a very good plan. And the suggestions I make don't deviate from the central idea of the original plan, they just sand down some of the bits that jarred with me.

 

It worked didn't it? 

 

It was entirely feasible and made perfect sense when considering the foreshadowing. What you're advocating is a bog standard Hollywood ending. Thing is, the series isn't even over yet. As you know I'm happy to criticise plot gaps, but this episode really wasnt an example of that. 

[The Fish 10963]

4 hours ago, Renton said:

 

It worked didn't it? 

 

It was entirely feasible and made perfect sense when considering the foreshadowing. What you're advocating is a bog standard Hollywood ending. Thing is, the series isn't even over yet. As you know I'm happy to criticise plot gaps, but this episode really wasnt an example of that. 

It wasn't a satisfying culmination of 8 seasons of surprising, entertaining tv. 

 

I'm not advocating a Hollywood ending at all, in fact what I'm advocating is a departure from the "everyone survives after the hero switches off the hive mind" that we've seen in so many films since Independence Day. I'm suggesting two B-level heros die, I'm suggesting the presumptive protagonist is shown to be little more than an annoyance to the presumptive antagonist, I'm suggesting an ending which avoids gaps in logic and feasibility within the established rules of the show.

 

[Renton 21980]

 

I'm out.