The big 7

[Deano 0]

 

Ha! Spending several seasons cultivating mediocrity doesn't mean you've got a 'right' to be there. Its not disrespect when you have the squad. Bolton have only been decent this year, and have spent most previous years after Allardyce being shit, what gives them the "right" to be considered for the Top 7? I'd rank those three teams youre considering as Aston Villa, Everton, then Bolton, and I firmly believe that right now NUFC are about 1-2 players behind Bolton, 2-3 behind Everton, and 3-4 behind Aston Villa.

 

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it?

 

Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples.

 

But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player

 

Tiote and Ben arfa are world class and only cost a fraction of that figure.

[Tooj 17]

The thing for me is, we've somehow stumbled upon an excellent spine and nucleus to our side. With a bit of investment, we really could push on in the summer.

 

Which is why it's going to be even worse when we inevitably don't invest in the correct way, and even worse lose some of our better players.

[ajax_andy 0]

If you spend £35m next season you'll have a better team? Well yeah obviously

 

We have guarantees that it will be spent.

 

 

From our manager who has no idea, own chairman who lies and Tiote's Nutz who's sum is gullibility plus positivity

 

 

...unless you spunked it all on shite lol!

 

Well yeah, there is that possibility.

 

You've pretty much admitted that we're already not far behind you on the field if £35m makes us obviously better. Not bad for a newly promoted side eh? ...When you've had to bust your guts for years to earn the right for people to consider you relatively likely to finish in the region of 5-8 in the league. Must upset you when you've granted Bolton the same status when their league position in the last 3 seasons was 16th, 13th, 14th.

 

 

Sorry I totaly misread the post I replied to there, I thought it was saying £35m would give Newcastle a better team than the current one?

 

Thought it was a strange argument lol

[LeazesMag 0]

 

Ha! Spending several seasons cultivating mediocrity doesn't mean you've got a 'right' to be there. Its not disrespect when you have the squad. Bolton have only been decent this year, and have spent most previous years after Allardyce being shit, what gives them the "right" to be considered for the Top 7? I'd rank those three teams youre considering as Aston Villa, Everton, then Bolton, and I firmly believe that right now NUFC are about 1-2 players behind Bolton, 2-3 behind Everton, and 3-4 behind Aston Villa.

 

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it?

 

Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples.

 

But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player

 

the man speaks perfect sense. So simple and so obvious.

[ajax_andy 0]

 

Ha! Spending several seasons cultivating mediocrity doesn't mean you've got a 'right' to be there. Its not disrespect when you have the squad. Bolton have only been decent this year, and have spent most previous years after Allardyce being shit, what gives them the "right" to be considered for the Top 7? I'd rank those three teams youre considering as Aston Villa, Everton, then Bolton, and I firmly believe that right now NUFC are about 1-2 players behind Bolton, 2-3 behind Everton, and 3-4 behind Aston Villa.

 

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it?

 

Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples.

 

But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player

 

Tiote and Ben arfa are world class and only cost a fraction of that figure.

 

 

Well yeah the odd player can be picked up on the cheap, but its difficult and certainly not a common occurance, and not a solid model for recruiting world class players on a consitant basis

[OTF 7571]

The thing for me is, we've somehow stumbled upon an excellent spine and nucleus to our side. With a bit of investment, we really could push on in the summer.

 

Which is why it's going to be even worse when we inevitably don't invest in the correct way, and even worse lose some of our better players.

 

Sad but true.

 

I think the last two seasons have shown that good comradery and team spirit makes a massive difference to performance across a season. It doesn't all just come down to the quality of the players, though obviously it all contributes.

[Tom 14015]

The thing for me is, we've somehow stumbled upon an excellent spine and nucleus to our side. With a bit of investment, we really could push on in the summer.

 

Which is why it's going to be even worse when we inevitably don't invest in the correct way, and even worse lose some of our better players.

 

Exactly. If anything we should be very careful with the money and try and get bargains like Ben Arfa and Tiote because when it's gone it's gone.

[ajax_andy 0]

If you spend £35m next season you'll have a better team? Well yeah obviously

 

We have guarantees that it will be spent.

 

 

From our manager who has no idea, own chairman who lies and Tiote's Nutz who's sum is gullibility plus positivity

 

 

...unless you spunked it all on shite lol!

 

Well yeah, there is that possibility.

 

You've pretty much admitted that we're already not far behind you on the field if £35m makes us obviously better. Not bad for a newly promoted side eh? ...When you've had to bust your guts for years to earn the right for people to consider you relatively likely to finish in the region of 5-8 in the league. Must upset you when you've granted Bolton the same status when their league position in the last 3 seasons was 16th, 13th, 14th.

 

 

Sorry forgot to address the bolton issue. You see Bolton established themselves as a premier league team, and now Owen Coyle has taken them to the next level. I have a lot of respect for Coyle and the job he's done there (at at Burnley previously) and I expect Bolton to be even better next year. Under Coyle I find it hard to believe they will suddenly drop back down the the lower reaches of the table.

 

I dont think anyone should be upset with Bolton being seen as a top 8 or 9 team these days, they have some good players and an excellent manager.

[ajax_andy 0]

 

Ha! Spending several seasons cultivating mediocrity doesn't mean you've got a 'right' to be there. Its not disrespect when you have the squad. Bolton have only been decent this year, and have spent most previous years after Allardyce being shit, what gives them the "right" to be considered for the Top 7? I'd rank those three teams youre considering as Aston Villa, Everton, then Bolton, and I firmly believe that right now NUFC are about 1-2 players behind Bolton, 2-3 behind Everton, and 3-4 behind Aston Villa.

 

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it?

 

Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples.

 

But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player

 

the man speaks perfect sense. So simple and so obvious.

 

 

Wow are you backing me up? If so i wasn't expecting anyone to do that so thanks

[OTF 7571]

I for one don't care where people see Bolton and I think you'll struggle to find anyone else here who does, but that's well besides the point.

 

Don't take what Leazes says as being pro you, it's simply anti-Ashley (and it is a justified position).

 

If we're talking Everton vs Newcastle alone then spending £35m wisely (No Dennis) would put our squad above your current team. Now, if you were to spend 15 million then we'd be on a relatively level footing. The problem for you is that you don't have £15m to spend, do you? The only way to have that would be to take that value out of the side (ie. selling Rodwell and/or Fellaini). We've already done that with Carroll, so to include the £15m spend you're not competing on a level playing field.

 

One positive for us is that Ben Arfa effectively will be a new player for us this season (how many times have we heard this sort of thing before).

 

On the contrary it's extremely likely that Enrique will leave which will be a huge loss.

 

In the end it will all come down to league position next season when comparing*. What happens between now and then will be interesting and will set the tone. It could go in so many ways that's it's really not that useful to discuss. It is fun though, so let the good chatter roll...

 

* No doubt though the lower positioned side will have plenty of excuses to fall back on - injuries, manager, owner etc.

[Deano 0]

For a few years i seen spurs as our closest rivals for league position, now they've stepped up (it wont last long) i see everton as our main rivals for position in the league.

 

Nothing to do with stature of the club, we are by far bigger and better, its just they are round about where we need to be aiming next two seasons.

[ajax_andy 0]

I for one don't care where people see Bolton and I think you'll struggle to find anyone else here who does, but that's well besides the point.

 

Don't take what Leazes says as being pro you, it's simply anti-Ashley (and it is a justified position).

 

If we're talking Everton vs Newcastle alone then spending £35m wisely (No Dennis) would put our squad above your current team. Now, if you were to spend 15 million then we'd be on a relatively level footing. The problem for you is that you don't have £15m to spend, do you? The only way to have that would be to take that value out of the side (ie. selling Rodwell and/or Fellaini). We've already done that with Carroll, so to include the £15m spend you're not competing on a level playing field.

 

One positive for us is that Ben Arfa effectively will be a new player for us this season (how many times have we heard this sort of thing before).

 

On the contrary it's extremely likely that Enrique will leave which will be a huge loss.

 

In the end it will all come down to league position next season when comparing*. What happens between now and then will be interesting and will set the tone. It could go in so many ways that's it's really not that useful to discuss. It is fun though, so let the good chatter roll...

 

* No doubt though the lower positioned side will have plenty of excuses to fall back on - injuries, manager, owner etc.

 

 

I wont disagree with much of what you've said there as there certainly is a lot of factors that can play a part over the course of a season.

 

For us selling Rodwell would actually have little impact on our 1st team as he hardly plays... he has a lot of potential but he can't get in the squad above Arteta, Cahill, Fellaini, and even Osman now who has been outstanding the last 6 weeks. So selling him might actually be a good thing (short term), as it'd allow us to strengthen the 1st team with a reliable and consistent striker, which would really help us kick on again.

 

I didnt expect people on here to agree with me... after all i'm on enemy ground so to speak here when giving my views, and if anyone of you came across to the Everton forums you'd find you'd be shot down straight away too lol

 

I think i've made some valid points though, whether anyone on here will agree or not is another matter but I stand by them.

[ajax_andy 0]

For a few years i seen spurs as our closest rivals for league position, now they've stepped up (it wont last long) i see everton as our main rivals for position in the league.

 

Nothing to do with stature of the club, we are by far bigger and better, its just they are round about where we need to be aiming next two seasons.

 

 

Better how out of interest?

 

Its the whole debate about what makes a club "bigger" or "better".

 

Are you comparing how you are run? We're skint, your owners a cock... which ever is better is just really a lesser of 2 evils.

 

League position? We're ahead of you and are a regular top 8 team, you aren't and were only relegated recently. with your chaotic board its hard to say where you'll be in 2 seasons time, who will be manager, who will be playing in your team.

 

Yes you have a better stadium, and more fans attending matches, but its easy to say ner ner we're bigger and better than you, whilst doing a silly dance and pointing, but in real terms there's pro's and minuses to both our clubs

[Tom 14015]

So basically it's purely relative and we are never going to find a definitive answer? Thank fuck for that.

[ajax_andy 0]

So basically it's purely relative and we are never going to find a definitive answer? Thank fuck for that.

 

 

Haha pretty much!

[ChezGiven 0]

it will be hard to get into the top 7. this is how i see it (no particular order )

 

man u

city

liverpool

arsenal

tottenham

chelsea

??????

 

there is one more space but i reckon everton or villa ( if they change their manager )

 

There you go then.

 

With a fully fit Ben Arfa and a few quality additions we will be better than villa, everton, sunderland and alike.

 

 

Haha I'm presuming you mean if you bought Messi, Villa and Ronaldo?

 

Sorry but Newcastle are a long way behind the quality of 1st team player that Everton are. We are also an established club who consitantly finishes in the top 5-8 places in the league, with an excellent manager and stability at the club.

 

This is the same argument I had with my Toon supporting mate at the start of the season, and as a result of over ambitious expectations he's going to owe me £30 and his mate £10 once the last ball of the season is kicked.

 

I dont have anything against the Toon, but for fucks sake learn to walk before you run! It takes a team several years to establish / re-establish itself in the top division... finishing 7th is a ridiculously high expectation and completely unrealistic, when even established teams such as Villa (who have a far better squad) have struggled this year.

 

Everton

Bolton

Villa

 

These are the teams that will be competing for 7th, 8th and 9th next season... I really can't see the Toon being in that bracket no matter who they sign. Top 12 maybe a realistic ambition (although with old rapey in charge I wouldn't be so sure), but top 7?

Twaddle. Utter shite of the highest order.

 

Explain why it takes years for clubs to establish themselves in the top flight? What are the factors at play? Is it because the squad in the championship is on average worth around 5-10m at most and that the revenue streams are so vastly different that immediately adjusting the wages from that level to around 50m after many seasons in the championship is risky from both a footballing and financial perspective?

 

Yes. Which doesnt apply in even the remotest sense to Newcastle. Our wages were 5 or 6 times the level of every other championship club. Thanks to an injection of capital the club was run with higher revenues and higher wages than even some premiership clubs. Telling us to walk before we run is just trotting out some phrase you have heard which kind of makes sense to you without even having the first clue about what it actually means and why.

 

The only limitation in our expectation at the start of the season was in the quality of the players and whether they had the talent to justify their wages. They have done quite well considering but given what they earn compared to other premiership players, any manager/fan/owner should expect the performances they have got.

 

As for your statement about the distance between the first teams, we played you off the park at your place and had a shit day at our place but were always in the game because you didnt have the quality to take a commanding lead. Sounds like two teams at roughly the same level to me.

 

The difference between us is that our revenues are higher, we have around 40m in the bank and we have Ben Arfa and Tiote who are far better than anything you have.

 

 

Haha I love the picture I have in my mind of your bright red face, vein throbing from forehead when you wrote that reply! GRRRRR!!!! Lol!

 

"Explain why it takes years for clubs to establish themselves in the top flight" - quality of players in your team, the difference in quality of the opposition are just two major factors

 

"Our wages were 5 or 6 times the level of every other championship club" - wages prove nothing, if they did Owen would have been a wonderful signing.

 

"Telling us to walk before we run is just trotting out some phrase you have heard" - who hasn't heard that saying? Obviously i've heard it lol! Such a strange argument!

 

"They have done quite well considering but given what they earn compared to other premiership players" - Yep no denying they have performed well this season, again wages play no factor in this though.

 

"we played you off the park at your place and had a shit day at our place but were always in the game because you didnt have the quality to take a commanding lead. Sounds like two teams at roughly the same level to me." - Can't base anything on 2 games... season is a marathon not a sprint... try looking at things overall for a better analysis... i.e. we've underachieved and you've over achieved, and we're still something like 6 points ahead of you. Although saying that you's have done well to be within 6 points of the 7th placed team in the league

 

"The difference between us is that our revenues are higher, we have around 40m in the bank and we have Ben Arfa and Tiote who are far better than anything you have" - Thats the only difference? Really?!! How many games as Ben Arfa played for you so that you can make the decision that he's "better than anything" Everton have got?

 

Sorry but your arguments are basically all bollocks. I appreciate the time yout ook to compose a repsonse and join in the debate though... better luck next time

 

You didnt address what your 'truism' was based on, that clubs who are promoted need to learn walk before they can run. The reason its a truism is because of the risks involved in investing all of the new money gained on players who are good enough to keep you in the top division. Its a massive financial risk and a footballing one.

 

My point, which you clearly dont understand, is that it doesnt apply to a club who are already operating at the premiership level of investment in playing staff. The effectiveness of the players is irrelevant to your idea that 'clubs need to take the time to step up'. The 'step up' can only be based around one variable; expenditure on players. If wages in the championship were the same as wages in the premiership, the statement would make no sense.

 

The point is that our wages were as high as some other clubs in the premiership, so what are you saying we should not do this season? Not play well because we dont deserve to? As we are already running a club with wages/revenue the same as other premiership clubs, there is nothing to step up. The fact that you make the statement without realising that its based on the different finances without even thinking about the finances of our club, means you have made the statement without thinking.

 

My argument is in no way based on 'we pay our players on average 40k per week, therefore we are as good as other clubs who pay that'. Its based on an understanding of the reasons for erring on the side of caution when you go from earning £5m a year to £50m a year in a season and the risks involved devoting all the new revenue to players who may or may not succeed. That doesnt apply to us, so your argument is bollocks.

 

I dont apologise for my abrasive style, i just dont like people prattling on about stuff they know fuck all about. I take an even dimmer view when its an opposing fan telling our fans what to think.

 

Finally, having watched Ben Arfa a few times before he came to England (i get to see the odd game of french football on domestic tv at home), i reckon he is better than any player you have on your books. As is Tiote. If you disagree, name the better players.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ChezGiven

[ChezGiven 0]

"Explain why it takes years for clubs to establish themselves in the top flight" - quality of players in your team, the difference in quality of the opposition are just two major factors

 

This assumes the reason we were relegated was because of a lack of quality. Whilst that may be true for the midfield we had at the time, the reasons were numerous and involved the most ridiculous chain of events ever seen at the club.

 

Since then, we've addressed the midfield issue and its a high quality midfield even without Ben Arfa. Its also a decent defence tbh. I'd like to say our attack is shit but only Man U have scored more at home than us.

 

Every one of your points is utter shite.

[tinofbeans 91]

ben arfa will be here next year, tiote, i really hope so. for me he is our absolutely most important player. no one can do exactly what he does, which is hold and control a game from deep. if ben arfa comes in and is as good as i think he is we get a free (???) player for mext season who in terms of quality, will be able to be better than 2 or 3 players in a variety of positions ( 2nd striker or either wide forward/ winger positions) than what we have...

 

as for the big 7, well its more like 5.

 

1 barton

2 tiote

3 enrique

4 collocini

5 nolan

 

the rest are not quite good enough. notable exceptions are ben arfa (pending his fitness), and on occasion williamson, who whilst he gets moaned about is not as bad as a few say. Krul (if he can sort his decision making out) and harper ( if he can re learn how to dive). aren't that bad either....

[ajax_andy 0]

Actually your argument is incorrect as you're saying the only variable between promoted teams and established teams is the willingness to spend large amounts on wages, when actually the financial side is a very very small part of it.

 

There are many factors that relate to promoted teams, some are the quality of the players they already have in their team, the ability to adapt to playing better opposition week in week out, the ability to adapt to playing teams that play a better and more accurate game of football where mistakes are punsihed 9 times out of 10, the pressure associated with playing in the big time, sacking your manager and replacing him with one who's track record suggests he'll not lead the club to any sort of success or stability. And i'm sure there are many more factors other than "we already paid good wages" which despite what you protest is essentially what your argument is.

 

"The step up" isn't just about expenditure, in fact that is just a very small part of it.

 

You take a dim view of an opposing fan commenting on this? Don't really care tbh, if enough people felt I was speaking out of turn i'm sure i'd just get banned... that hasn't happened yet, and until it does i'll speak my mind... as will you, so really both being members on here we have a right to air our opinions regardless of which side of the footballing fence we sit on.

 

I'm not going to debate with you which Everton players are better than Tiote and Ben Arfa, its a pointless debate and is completely subjective to who you support and watch every week. Also watching a player playing in a foreign league is different to how sucessful they may become in the premier league. I'm sure many Chelsea fans couldn't wait to see Kezman in action, or Boro fans with Alfonso Alves... the fact of the matter is no-one can judge him on a handful of games as being better than anyone.

[ajax_andy 0]

"Explain why it takes years for clubs to establish themselves in the top flight" - quality of players in your team, the difference in quality of the opposition are just two major factors

 

This assumes the reason we were relegated was because of a lack of quality. Whilst that may be true for the midfield we had at the time, the reasons were numerous and involved the most ridiculous chain of events ever seen at the club.

 

Since then, we've addressed the midfield issue and its a high quality midfield even without Ben Arfa. Its also a decent defence tbh. I'd like to say our attack is shit but only Man U have scored more at home than us.

 

Every one of your points is utter shite.

 

 

You were in part relegated due to a lack of quality in your team... there is no such thing as "too good to go down".

 

So yes your team is better equiped to survive this season than most as luckily your premier league standard players were on such large contracts you couldn't get rid of them, but again i've made the point several times that there's a big step up in the standard of opposition when being promoted.

 

Not sure how my points are utter shite?

[ChezGiven 0]

As everything associated with money spent on quality players determines everything you say in the next paragraph, then that is not a rebuttal.

 

The playing staff that went down were all premiership quality, we retained a £50m wage bill because we could. Few other clubs could do this. This meant the players we had in the championship were pretty much the same ones who were good enough to play for Man U, Villareal, Deportivo La Coruna, Man City, Argentina etc. We didnt deconstruct the side and assemble a team that we could afford in the championship, we retained the nucleus of the premiership side with internationals and players who had proven themselves at top clubs and pissed the championship.

 

You continue to argue about a hypothetical club, one with low wages and low revenues in the championship and dont once mention our reality. The most telling aspect of everything you have said. Your truism remains a truism, it just has fuck all to do with us.

[ChezGiven 0]

Who said 'too good to go down'? No one.

 

We had a quality issue in midfield but we had 4 managers in one season and only went down by one goal. Random chance could have kept us up.

 

Name 2 players who are better than Ben Arfa and Tiote who play for yous. Go on.

[ajax_andy 0]

As everything associated with money spent on quality players determines everything you say in the next paragraph, then that is not a rebuttal.

 

The playing staff that went down were all premiership quality, we retained a £50m wage bill because we could. Few other clubs could do this. This meant the players we had in the championship were pretty much the same ones who were good enough to play for Man U, Villareal, Deportivo La Coruna, Man City, Argentina etc. We didnt deconstruct the side and assemble a team that we could afford in the championship, we retained the nucleus of the premiership side with internationals and players who had proven themselves at top clubs and pissed the championship.

 

You continue to argue about a hypothetical club, one with low wages and low revenues in the championship and dont once mention our reality. The most telling aspect of everything you have said. Your truism remains a truism, it just has fuck all to do with us.

 

Erm sorry but I think you'll find I already said you kept premiership quality players? You should read what i've written before replying

 

Never said you were a club with low wages and low revenues... My argument was that money isn't the only factor in staying in the league and building stability... and speaking of stability sacking the manager that pulled the team togather and got them promoted may still cause problems next season that aren't showing at the moment.

 

You can list "Man U, Villareal, Deportivo La Coruna, Man City, Argentina etc" but those players got you relegated dont forget, so its not as black and white as you make it out to be.

 

I have at no point said Newcastle are shit and will get relegated next season, you seem to think that by me saying top 10 would be a realistic goal i'm somehow defecting on your club. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it, its not like the Toon army are ever accused of having hugely inflated expectations which are never realised is it?

[ajax_andy 0]

Who said 'too good to go down'? No one.

 

We had a quality issue in midfield but we had 4 managers in one season and only went down by one goal. Random chance could have kept us up.

 

Name 2 players who are better than Ben Arfa and Tiote who play for yous. Go on.

 

Again its subjective, i'll happily list players that I feel would get in the Toon team, i'm sure you'll disagree but then I already know that:

 

Howard

Jagielka

Baines

Heitinga

Distin

Osman

Rodwell

Fellaini

Arteta

Coleman

Saha

Beckford

Cahill

 

Wow look at all those players! Of course i'm listing them because I support the team they play for, and see more of them than I do of the Toon players. I'm sure you could happily replace all of them if you wanted to with Toon players... again because you support the team they play for... see what I mean about it being subjective? Its a pointless debate.

[ChezGiven 0]

I'm saying that your insistence that we should take our time to re-establish ourselves is based on the normal model of clubs stepping up and that it doesnt apply to a club who didnt step down. A normal club with an 80m wage bill would sell everyone and aim for a wage bill of around 30m. We dropped down to 50m which was quite easy to do as most of it was going to Martins and Owen.

 

Also relegation does not mean those players were not good enough, the fact that the same players* have stayed, pissed the championship and proven themselves good enough to be in the premiership this season fundamentally proves you are talking through your ring-piece.

 

*The players that left were the ones who gave other people the impression we were too good to go down, as we had names like Butt, Smith, Owen, Duff and Martins on our books. They were ironically, the ones who were the shittest of the lot. Fair play to Duff since then he has re-found the form he lost.