The big 7

[ajax_andy 0]

Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players?

 

I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots.

 

 

I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out.

 

If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree:

 

Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better:

 

Arteta

Osman

Fellaini

Baines

Cahill

Saha

 

Tiote - One season in the premier league:

 

Arteta

Fellaini

Baines

Saha

 

 

Mr Rimmer sir - is that you?

 

That exactly the kind of logic i'd expect from you sir, discounting the quality of players plying their trade for the first time in the premier league. That rules out space junk such as Andy Carroll, Van der Vaart, Javier Hernandez, Yaya Toure, David Silva, David Luiz, Luis Suarez, Apostolos Vellios etc etc

 

Ergo this makes you a complete and utter Smeg Head.

 

Mr Tiote is widely known throughtout the galaxy as being harder than a neutron star and you should never underestimate his capabilities.

 

 

Smoke me a kipper...

 

 

 

I'll be back for breakfast

[OTF 7243]

Comparing stats between a defensive midfield player and an attacking fullback and an offensive midfielder/winger LOL.

 

Lost the plot.

[ajax_andy 0]

Comparing stats between a defensive midfield player and an attacking fullback and an offensive midfielder/winger LOL.

 

Lost the plot.

 

And so in the debate of who is better how would you compare them?

 

So tackles, successfull passes, key passes and assists aren't all aspects of an outfield players game? I deliberately didn't put goals in there as that is a pointless stat in this case.

 

Oh and Moyes has played Arteta as a defensive midfielder all season (except against your lot which is the only game he hasn't) so it shows what you know anyway lol

 

Besides its easy enough to mock the use of stats to back something up, but seeing as you're bringing nothing as an alternative then your post is pretty pointless tbh.

[ajax_andy 0]

-------------Howard

 

Neville---Jags---Distin----Baines

 

-------------Arteta-------

Coleman------Fellaini-----Osman

 

-------------Cahill

----------------Saha

 

That's how we've lined up this season (swap Osman for Piennar pre Jan window), with Osman/Piennar tucking in to allow baines the chance to overlap.

 

That's for thsoe who think Arteta plays as a winger or attacking midfielder for us. He doesn't much to the annoyance of a lot of our fans.

[OTF 7243]

I don't care where Moyes plays him, he's an attacking midfielder/winger.

 

To answer your question, you don't compare completely different players.

[ajax_andy 0]

I don't care where Moyes plays him, he's an attacking midfielder/winger.

 

To answer your question, you don't compare completely different players.

 

 

That makes no sense at all?! He plays defensive midfield, so its entirely possible to compare his stats to a fellow defensive midfield player.

 

Thats like saying if Newcastle play Harper up front for a season, you can't compare the number of goals he scores to Berbatov because he's a goal keeper?!! LOL!

 

Arteta this season has played defensive midfield in all but one game, ergo his stats are that of a defensive midfielder (barre one game) and can be compared to the stats of any other player playing in that position this season.

[OTF 7243]

You're so passionate about making the comparison and yet Arteta doesn't even have a tackles per game rating? That's fantastic for a 'defensive' midfielder wouldn't you say? Makes less passes than Tiote also. Gets more assists, that's no surprise because he's an offensively minded player and Tiote isn't, but even if you were to make the comparison based on their effectiveness as defensive midfielders then Tiote clearly wins.

 

I think that Arteta is a very good player (apart from the simulation) and if I had both squads at my disposal I'd have both him and Tiote in the side with Tiote obviously as defensive mid.

[Kitman 2204]

Thats like saying if Newcastle play Harper up front for a season, you can't compare the number of goals he scores to Berbatov because he's a goal keeper?!!

 

You could compare them but it wouldn't be a very good comparison

[ajax_andy 0]

You're so passionate about making the comparison and yet Arteta doesn't even have a tackles per game rating? That's fantastic for a 'defensive' midfielder wouldn't you say? Makes less passes than Tiote also. Gets more assists, that's no surprise because he's an offensively minded player and Tiote isn't, but even if you were to make the comparison based on their effectiveness as defensive midfielders then Tiote clearly wins.

 

I think that Arteta is a very good player (apart from the simulation) and if I had both squads at my disposal I'd have both him and Tiote in the side with Tiote obviously as defensive mid.

 

 

I dont have a problem with that opinion, and if you re-read what I wrote it'll show that I actually said that the stats prove nothing, only allow both sides to argue depending on which statistics they pick to use.

 

Arteta has played a Carrick role for us this season, he sits deep, but he'll never be the type of player that throws himself in to tackles. He's played as a defensive midfielder, but there are different types of defensive midfielder, and not all of them are the Makelele type.

 

Now you say both in the team, with Tiote sitting behind Arteta? I like the sound of that... providing its for Everton and not Newcastle of course

Edited April 26, 2011 by ajax_andy

[ajax_andy 0]

Thats like saying if Newcastle play Harper up front for a season, you can't compare the number of goals he scores to Berbatov because he's a goal keeper?!!

 

You could compare them but it wouldn't be a very good comparison

 

 

Haha you never know Harper might be mint up front

[Kitman 2204]

Thats like saying if Newcastle play Harper up front for a season, you can't compare the number of goals he scores to Berbatov because he's a goal keeper?!!

 

You could compare them but it wouldn't be a very good comparison

 

 

Haha you never know Harper might be mint up front

 

Or berbatov could be a decent keeper

[ajax_andy 0]

Thats like saying if Newcastle play Harper up front for a season, you can't compare the number of goals he scores to Berbatov because he's a goal keeper?!!

 

You could compare them but it wouldn't be a very good comparison

 

 

Haha you never know Harper might be mint up front

 

Or berbatov could be a decent keeper

 

 

Haha judging by Berbatovs lack of mobility I think even I could stick a few past him (providing I hit the target which is pretty rare lol)

[ChezGiven 0]

Tiote is worth more than Arteta.

[Tom 14011]

Back to the theory that player can't be good unless he's played in the might Premier League.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13766]

Ben Arfa may have been one of the most highly rated young European talents and played well at the top level before but can he cut it on a cold Wednesday night at Stoke? I don't think so, Richard.

[ajax_andy 0]

Back to the theory that player can't be good unless he's played in the might Premier League.

 

 

Its not a theory that a player can't be good unless he's played in the premier league.

 

The point i'm making is that just because a player has been as sucess in a lesser league, doesn't automatically mean he'll be sucess in England.

 

As such you can't say hes better than "x player" until they have both been compared playing on a level playing field so to speak.

 

And the examples I posted of Kezman & Alves prove this, you could add others in to that pot as well, Bilyaletdinov for us would be another, Mutu when he went to Chelsea (although coke may have played its part there), Shevchenko would be a another huge example...and many others.

 

So no i'm not saying players can't be good unless they play in England, or that all foreign players are useless when they come here, that's you taking my point and twisting to suit your own argument/logic.

 

I'd rather have Ben Arfa in my team than "x player" is what someone argued (I forget who). How can you argue that based on 3 games in the premier league? When in all fairness he could turn out to be shit (or amazing, but no-one knows at this point).

 

I'm sure many Chelsea fans would have said "I'd rather have Shevchenko than x player" and look how that one turned out.

 

Does that not make sense? I'm struggling to think of how much more simple I can make it?

[ajax_andy 0]

Schevchenko:

 

1994–1999 Dynamo Kyiv 117 (60 goals)

1999–2006 Milan 208 (127 goals)

1995– Ukraine 100 (45 goals)

 

2006–2009 Chelsea 47 (9 goals)

 

 

Do you see the point i'm making. He didn't even come from an inferior league, but would Chelsea fans rather have him or Drogba up front?

[SloopJohn 0]

Schevchenko:

 

1994–1999 Dynamo Kyiv 117 (60 goals)

1999–2006 Milan 208 (127 goals)

1995– Ukraine 100 (45 goals)

 

2006–2009 Chelsea 47 (9 goals)

 

 

Do you see the point i'm making. He didn't even come from an inferior league, but would Chelsea fans rather have him or Drogba up front?

 

yeah but Scheva had a devastating leg injury in 2005/2006, and was then rushed back for the world cup, which meant he lost half his pace. I don't think anyone would question that he was, for two or three years, one of the best strikers in the world, along with Henry.

[Gejon 2]

A pattern seems to be emerging here also, ie a lot of these failures went to mega rich Chelsea.

 

A similar thing is happening at City where top class strikers are going there but not looking nearly as good.

 

Also I though Mutu was quite good before the drug thing, maybe my poor memory.

 

Ben Arfa will suceed here because he has the talent but also he will still be the big fish where as the other 'failure' were going into teams where if they didn't hit the ground running they wouldn't get much chance, see also Torres at Chelsea (again).

[ajax_andy 0]

A pattern seems to be emerging here also, ie a lot of these failures went to mega rich Chelsea.

 

A similar thing is happening at City where top class strikers are going there but not looking nearly as good.

 

Also I though Mutu was quite good before the drug thing, maybe my poor memory.

 

Ben Arfa will suceed here because he has the talent but also he will still be the big fish where as the other 'failure' were going into teams where if they didn't hit the ground running they wouldn't get much chance, see also Torres at Chelsea (again).

 

 

True in part, but the likes of Alfonso Alves certainly didn't go to a big club.

 

Am sure there are plenty of other examples too.

 

So yes the right club matters beyond doubt, but can't be blamed for all the players with good reputations that come here an fail.

 

Am not saying he'll be a failure either, but that no-one can porclaim him to be anything yet (in this league) as he needs to prove it on the pitch first.

[Gejon 2]

So far he looked pretty good, the Everton game he was awesome, even if you don't take into account that goal.

 

Didn't look like a player trying to settle in anyway.

[SloopJohn 0]

A pattern seems to be emerging here also, ie a lot of these failures went to mega rich Chelsea.

 

A similar thing is happening at City where top class strikers are going there but not looking nearly as good.

 

Also I though Mutu was quite good before the drug thing, maybe my poor memory.

 

Ben Arfa will suceed here because he has the talent but also he will still be the big fish where as the other 'failure' were going into teams where if they didn't hit the ground running they wouldn't get much chance, see also Torres at Chelsea (again).

 

 

True in part, but the likes of Alfonso Alves certainly didn't go to a big club.

 

Am sure there are plenty of other examples too.

 

So yes the right club matters beyond doubt, but can't be blamed for all the players with good reputations that come here an fail.

 

Am not saying he'll be a failure either, but that no-one can porclaim him to be anything yet (in this league) as he needs to prove it on the pitch first.

 

Thierry Henry was a failure in Italy, so was Dennis Bergkamp, so was Kanu. Does that make the Premiership worse than Serie A then?

[Tom 14011]

The premier league's flagship player is apparently Scott Parker. Ben Arfa will be laughing.

[sniffer 0]

Parker has been a good player for years. Ben Arfa has done fuck all by comparison. I'm waiting for a full season before deciding if he's been worth the money.

[Deano 0]

Parker has been a good player for years. Ben Arfa has done fuck all by comparison. I'm waiting for a full season before deciding if he's been worth the money.

 

Fuck off man.