ChezGiven 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players? I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I'm saying that your insistence that we should take our time to re-establish ourselves is based on the normal model of clubs stepping up and that it doesnt apply to a club who didnt step down. A normal club with an 80m wage bill would sell everyone and aim for a wage bill of around 30m. We dropped down to 50m which was quite easy to do as most of it was going to Martins and Owen. Also relegation does not mean those players were not good enough, the fact that the same players* have stayed, pissed the championship and proven themselves good enough to be in the premiership this season fundamentally proves you are talking through your ring-piece. *The players that left were the ones who gave other people the impression we were too good to go down, as we had names like Butt, Smith, Owen, Duff and Martins on our books. They were ironically, the ones who were the shittest of the lot. Fair play to Duff since then he has re-found the form he lost. Sorry but I completely disagree (no surprise there), you didnt "step down"? You were relegated... surely thats the defenition of "taking a step down" Out of all the clubs promoted you had the best chance of staying up and building on that the re-establish yourself as a premier league team. You don't have a right to be seen as an established premier league team yet regardless of how big your wage bill is/was in the championship. Yep the same players were galvanised by Houghton and pissed the league, he then got them off to a good start which after Pardew took over continued until recently when its tailed off. So under the right leadership these players play well and work for each other, under the wrong leadership they got you relegated. You have Pardew in charge... lets just see how things go next season before you make any bold predictions eh? Anyway this is going round in circles, so lets just end it there eh? You dont agree with me, I dont agree with you... no amount of bickering will solve that... plus i'm off home for 4 days in 10 mins and wont be wasting my precious non work time on footy forums lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know where are all this Baines love comes from. Decent player but i'd worry about him if he played for England regularly. Plus he takes penalties which obviously helps the goal tally. Enrique is top class. You name about 3 CBs there as well and Colo is better than all of them so that wouldnt work. Ameobi is better than Beckford. If I had to choose a EverToon team (see what I did there!) ------------------Howard Coleman-Jagielka-Colo-Enrique Barton-Tiote-Arteta-* (Guti/Osman) --------------Ameobi-Saha * Jesus, not sure who could play here. Toss up between these two. Rodwell is going to be class in the future but it'll probably be at CB for Man Utd. Are you from Merseyside by the way Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players? I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots. I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) The majority of players that played for us in the championship were actual Premier League class. It was just one disaster after another that got use relegated. Mainly the management disruption, selling our top players & the players at the time not giving a fuck which all led to poor form. Edited April 21, 2011 by Holden McGroin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 I thought rodwell looked better as a CM tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I thought rodwell looked better as a CM tbh. Aye, he is capable of playing there as well. Moyes has always said he'd end up a CB though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know where are all this Baines love comes from. Decent player but i'd worry about him if he played for England regularly. Plus he takes penalties which obviously helps the goal tally. Enrique is top class. You name about 3 CBs there as well and Colo is better than all of them so that wouldnt work. Ameobi is better than Beckford. If I had to choose a EverToon team (see what I did there!) ------------------Howard Coleman-Jagielka-Colo-Enrique Barton-Tiote-Arteta-* (Guti/Osman) --------------Ameobi-Saha * Jesus, not sure who could play here. Toss up between these two. Rodwell is going to be class in the future but it'll probably be at CB for Man Utd. Are you from Merseyside by the way Andy? Ameobi is better than Beckford! I mean i dont really rate Beckford that highly but he's better than Ameobi. Gotta look at Baines assist stats I posted earlier in this thread... he's the best attacking left back in europe based on his stats this season, please go look at it as am sure you'll be surprised. However i'll give you credit for the team you picked as at least its a nice blend of the 2 teams rather than being a completely one sided view. I dont completely agree with it, but its a good attempt at being impartial which i applaud. Nope not from Merseyside originally... its a long story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players? I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots. I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Thanks for the comedy. Leighton Baines is better than Ben Arfa! Tiote is worth more than all 4 of those players put together i.e. £20m. We went round in circles as you had fuck all clue about what i was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I thought rodwell looked better as a CM tbh. Aye, he is capable of playing there as well. Moyes has always said he'd end up a CB though. Not sure about Rodwell tbh, Moyes says he see's his future as CB, but then plays him in the Cahill role sometimes. His defensive play is a bit poor and his positional sense is shocking. For me he'll be a really good box to box midfielder, as I just dont think he's developed certain aspects of his game enough to play CB. Not sure if thats Moyes' fault for not letting him develop in one set position, or just his natural progression has taken him to play a different role than expected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 ArtetaFellaini Baines Saha Better than Tiote. FUCKING HELL MAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 If Messi comes to the premier league he probably wont be very good because he hasn't played in it before is that the logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players? I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots. I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Thanks for the comedy. Leighton Baines is better than Ben Arfa! Tiote is worth more than all 4 of those players put together i.e. £20m. We went round in circles as you had fuck all clue about what i was saying. Ben Arfa has done fuck all. He's only played a handful of games, has had a bad injury and may or may not return the same player... so yeah I have fuck all clue about what you are saying and how you justify some of your arguments. Anyway i'm off home, have a good easter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ben Arfa has done fuck all Over 120 French League Appearances. 34 Champions League Appearances. 5 French League Titles 2 French Cups 2 French League Cups Before the age of 23, aye he's done fuck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know where are all this Baines love comes from. Decent player but i'd worry about him if he played for England regularly. Plus he takes penalties which obviously helps the goal tally. Enrique is top class. You name about 3 CBs there as well and Colo is better than all of them so that wouldnt work. Ameobi is better than Beckford. If I had to choose a EverToon team (see what I did there!) ------------------Howard Coleman-Jagielka-Colo-Enrique Barton-Tiote-Arteta-* (Guti/Osman) --------------Ameobi-Saha * Jesus, not sure who could play here. Toss up between these two. Rodwell is going to be class in the future but it'll probably be at CB for Man Utd. Are you from Merseyside by the way Andy? Ameobi is better than Beckford! I mean i dont really rate Beckford that highly but he's better than Ameobi. Gotta look at Baines assist stats I posted earlier in this thread... he's the best attacking left back in europe based on his stats this season, please go look at it as am sure you'll be surprised. However i'll give you credit for the team you picked as at least its a nice blend of the 2 teams rather than being a completely one sided view. I dont completely agree with it, but its a good attempt at being impartial which i applaud. Nope not from Merseyside originally... its a long story Yes, i'd have Shola over Beckford any day of the week. The guy looks more nervous in front of goal than Neil Lennons postman. Stats can be misleading. Ian Harte was probably the best left back in the world a few years ago if you are basing assists and goals on a full backs job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano 0 Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ben Arfa has done fuck all Over 120 French League Appearances. 34 Champions League Appearances. 5 French League Titles 2 French Cups 2 French League Cups Before the age of 23, aye he's done fuck all. Never knew that! Fuckin hell. Definitly signed a player with pedigree like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Add to that 8 French National appearances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I notice Beckford's stats aren't being included to back up your argument, Andy He really has done fuck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdStephenIreland 74 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know where are all this Baines love comes from. Decent player but i'd worry about him if he played for England regularly. Plus he takes penalties which obviously helps the goal tally. Enrique is top class. You name about 3 CBs there as well and Colo is better than all of them so that wouldnt work. Ameobi is better than Beckford. If I had to choose a EverToon team (see what I did there!) ------------------Howard Coleman-Jagielka-Colo-Enrique Barton-Tiote-Arteta-* (Guti/Osman) --------------Ameobi-Saha * Jesus, not sure who could play here. Toss up between these two. Rodwell is going to be class in the future but it'll probably be at CB for Man Utd. Are you from Merseyside by the way Andy? Nay Nolan like? I'd hoy him in the middle alongside Tiote and shift Arteta to the left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Goals for a defender is a misleading stat really. Look a Jolean Lescott. Scored a bagful for Everton and then got a massive transfer to Man City where he has been utter shite. Jagielka is better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6471 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Nay Nolan like? I\'d hoy him in the middle alongside Tiote and shift Arteta to the left I'd ideally lob all 3 of them in if I wasnt playing 4-4-2, but Arteta would be useless/wasted on the left. Much like Tiote/Nolan would be. Edited April 21, 2011 by Holden McGroin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdStephenIreland 74 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Nay Nolan like? I\'d hoy him in the middle alongside Tiote and shift Arteta to the left I'd ideally lob all 3 of them in if I wasnt playing 4-4-2, but Arteta would be useless/wasted on the left. Much like Tiote/Nolan would be. I maybe wrong but i'm sure hes sometimes put on the left for Everton, and i'm sure he was there when he tore Saylor a new arsehole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Ben Arfa has done fuck all Over 120 French League Appearances. 34 Champions League Appearances. 5 French League Titles 2 French Cups 2 French League Cups Before the age of 23, aye he's done fuck all. Mateja Kezman 1998–2000 Partizan 54 apps; 33 Goals 2000–2004 PSV Eindhoven 122 apps; 105 Goals 2000–2006 Serbia and Montenegro 49 apps; 17 Goals 2004–2005 Chelsea 25 apps; 4 Goals Alfonso Alves 2002–2003 Örgryte 39 apps; 23 Goals 2004–2006 Malmö FF 55 apps; 29 Goals 2006–2008 Heerenveen 39; 45 Goals 2008–2009 Middlesbrough 42; 10 Goals 2007 Brazil 8 apps; 1 Goal Just 2 examples out of many that I could give of players coming to this country with a big reputation (from inferior leagues), after being highly successful in other leagues, then failing badly to live up to the hype. So he's done "fuck all" in this country for anyone to compare him against established and "successful" premier league players. Especially when you are basing him being better than "x player" after a whole 3 starts and one as sub in this league. That's also not taking in to account his really bad injury that no-one knows how well he'll come back from. Now you lot on here keep maintaining i'm wrong, you're right etc, like I said before a lot of its down to the subjectivity and being passionate about your team and the players that play for it. Nowt wrong with that, its an admirable trait of the football supporter, and what is a supporter if they dont get behind their team and the players that play for it? However I can back up my arguments with stats and examples, so surely you must admit that there is at least some validity to my points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten 0 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Bottling it too, which ones on that are better than our two top players? I'll do it then since you dont have the belief in your own point of view. Tiote is better than Fellaini and Ben Arfa is better than Arteta. Fill your boots. I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Mr Rimmer sir - is that you? That exactly the kind of logic i'd expect from you sir, discounting the quality of players plying their trade for the first time in the premier league. That rules out space junk such as Andy Carroll, Van der Vaart, Javier Hernandez, Yaya Toure, David Silva, David Luiz, Luis Suarez, Apostolos Vellios etc etc Ergo this makes you a complete and utter Smeg Head. Mr Tiote is widely known throughtout the galaxy as being harder than a neutron star and you should never underestimate his capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax_andy 0 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) Tiote v Arteta, Fellaini & Baines: Ok so i've done a bit of research to help in our discussion about who's better etc. Below are stats based on this season. Now the stats only go up to the "top 50" for each section, so I will note if a players stats aren't listed due to them not being in the top 50 for that particular stat with an N/A. Now i'll hold my hands up here and say Fellaini isn't better than Tiote based on these stats. He doesn't feature much in the top 50 so i'll take him out of the argument... so there you go Tiote is better than Fellaini based on my stats Tackles won per game: Tiote - 2.42 Baines - 1.46 Arteta - N/A So here it shows that Tiote is a very successful tackler when compared to Baines & Arteta Successful passes per game: Tiote - 42.57 Arteta - 38.39 Baines - 24.38 Interesting to see that whenever Tiote gets the ball he seems to find a team mate more often than Arteta or Baines... however that's just one side of the coin... the other is how effective that pass is... so lets dig a bit deeper: Key passes per game: Arteta - 1.53 Baines - 1.46 Tiote - N/A So these aren't assists, i've deliberately not looked at assists yet as we all know Baines has the 5th most assists of any player in Europe, so instead this stat looks at when the player passes the ball, just how effective it was, rather than a player just picking it up and knocking it sideways or backwards all the time. As you can see Tiote doesn't even figure in the top 50, so unfortunately i'm going to have to say that despite him using the ball well in regards keeping possesion, he doesn't actually appear to do a great deal with it compared to Arteta & Baines. Yellow cards every x number of games: Thought i'd drop this in seeing as someone criticised Fellaini's style of play earlier in this thread: Tiote - 2.16 Baines - 9.75 Arteta - 14 Wow so Tiote gets booked once every 2.16 games? Seems a bit dirty doesn't it? I'm not going to count this in the overall scores because its a bit pointless, but just thought i'd do it to show that despite what people think about Fellaini (who doesn't even feature in the top 50 of this stat, Tiote is THE most booked player in the league, and has commited the 2nd most fouls (only behind Kevin Davies). Assists per every x number of games: Baines - 3.5 Arteta - N/A Tiote - N/A So overall what can we conclude? That Baines is has less successful tackles per game, but his overall contribution in terms of key passes and assists is much greater than Tiote? That Arteta again is much more effective in terms of overall contribution to the team with again much more key passes than Tiote? Or that Tiote breaks up the play more effectively than either of these 2, but once he has doesn't really do anything else with it other than play a safe pass, which then in turn keeps possession and allows the team to build an attack? What have I proved with these stats? Not much, just that certain stats will allow anyone with bias to argue that their player is better than the oppositions. But hopefully at least i've shown that there is validity to my arguments, and that I can produce evidence to back up why my thoughts are what they are... I think credit is due for that at least (although I'm still not expecting anything other than abuse lol!) Edited April 26, 2011 by ajax_andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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