Hatem "Number 26" Ben Arfa

[The Fish 10963]

Don't get precious, all players have failings but some players are canonised.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Don't get precious, all players have failings but some players are canonised.

OK why do you think that is?

[The Fish 10963]

OK why do you think that is?

Jesus, a multitude of reasons. Ginola was as lazy and temperamental as Ben Arfa, but he played under a great manager, at a great time and left at his peak. Shearer's arrogance and selfishness wasn't important when stacked up against his previous goals and Leadership. 

 

Ben Arfa played under a bad manager during a shitty time and left under a cloud. 

 

I seem to recall Newcastle fans slating Robert because he didn't add tracking back to the goals, the assists and the skills. There's just a subset of football fans that think that graft trumps guile and that makes me glum.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Maybe it's a pros vs cons thing then? It wasn't like he was a model pro that needed to be emancipated from defensive duties in order to score and create boat loads of goals. He was fat, disruptive and unprofessional. If you take it upon yourself to unburden yourself from tracking back like he did, then he needed to produce enough to make himself undroppable. He didnt

[The Fish 10963]

Maybe it's a pros vs cons thing then? It wasn't like he was a model pro that needed to be emancipated from defensive duties in order to score and create boat loads of goals. He was fat, disruptive and unprofessional. If you take it upon yourself to unburden yourself from tracking back like he did, then he needed to produce enough to make himself undroppable. He didnt

 

Well, he did when he was being played in the right system, but that system wasn't Pardew's system and so when the ball is sailing overhead I'm not sure we can demand too much from the lad. And when people say he's fat I struggle to remember a game when he was blowing out of his arse? Certainly no more than Sissoko, Cabaye, Cisse, Ba etc. Yet I do remember him getting moaning arseholes out their seats with his ability on the ball. I've not seen a single fan of his say he's perfect, but the criticism from his detractors goes way over the top. 

 

Ginola 75 games - 7 goals.

HBA 86 games - 14 goals.

Robert 181 games - 32 goals.

 

And you have to consider who the lazy french wingers were playing with/for. Ginola had two of Newcastle greatest ever players in his team, plus legends in their own right dotted throughout the squad. Robert also enjoyed remarkable colleagues. HBA had James Perch and Danny Guthrie.

 

He's definitely flawed and certainly deserves some criticism, but honestly, some of the abuse levelled at him should be reserved for ex-managers and/or sunderland players.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Both were less selfish players than HBA. And you won't be "blowing out of your arse" when you're not pulling your considerable weight will you? The level of abuse for him has just been escalated to try and point out to those that immortalised him the error of their ways. I liked watching HBA but ultimately he wasn't worth the considerable hassle.

[strawb 4378]

Ben Arfa needs defending because players like him are why I (and I imagine most of us) fell in love with football.

 

The ability to beat a man and score a wonder goal were the dreams I had as a kid, not being a winger who works hard defensively.

 

When you were kids and called players names out when playing with your mates, mine were (old) Ronaldo, Baggio etc. Not Deshamps or Costacurta.

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Nobby and Beardsley are the only players I've seen who could put 'bottom' on the ball to hold the ball up.I've never seen anyone as good as Waddle at beating a player through skill.Ask Kenny Burns,the ex-Leeds player.I remember after one game against Leeds,after Waddle had tortured him,he said' the thing with Waddle is,you know what he's going to do but you cannot stop him from doing it'.Ginola was untouchable in his first season.Comparing HBA and Robert with either Waddle or Ginola ( in his first season) is total nonsense.And I haven't even mentioned Tony Green.

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Ben Arfa needs defending because players like him are why I (and I imagine most of us) fell in love with football.

The ability to beat a man and score a wonder goal were the dreams I had as a kid, not being a winger who works hard defensively.

When you were kids and called players names out when playing with your mates, mine were (old) Ronaldo, Baggio etc. Not Deshamps or Costacurta.

Mine were Boumsong,Mbiwa and Foumaca.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

At the same time I bet a few kids liked to pretend they were Beckham. It's horses for courses though. If you're that good and playing in a successful team that can facilitate you being just attacking then you get away with it. But if you don't graft when your team is up against it then you're going to get pelters

[strawb 4378]

Mine were Boumsong,Mbiwa and Foumaca.

Kevin Ball, Supa Kev and Steve Bould

[The Fish 10963]

Both were less selfish players than HBA. And you won't be "blowing out of your arse" when you're not pulling your considerable weight will you? The level of abuse for him has just been escalated to try and point out to those that immortalised him the error of their ways. I liked watching HBA but ultimately he wasn't worth the considerable hassle.

 

Then the argument is doomed to continue forever, because the defence of him is in response to the over-the-top criticism. 

 

As an aside, you seem to be remembering a different David Ginola and Laurent Robert to me... both of them were selfish. One of the most repeated criticism of Robert was that he was a lazy selfish prick.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Well I was young but I remember some of the crosses Ginola used to whip in for Les. HBA preferred to cut inside and shoot or beat that one man too many and often lose the ball

[The Fish 10963]

Well I was young but I remember some of the crosses Ginola used to whip in for Les. HBA preferred to cut inside and shoot or beat that one man too many and often lose the ball

 

I remember Ginola running down blind alleys, but yeah he would cross more than HBA did, but then, he had Sir Les and Shearer to aim for and was more of an old fashioned winger. Robert was too, but they both did fuck all to help out Beresford or Bernard. Trouble is, long enough time has passed to sand down the rough edges of their Newcastle career, now they're revered, but at the time there were plenty of people moaning on that they didn't get stuck in. Just like, in 5 years time when we've signed some fancy Dan winger who has unbelievable talent, there'll be people moaning that he doesn't track back. Because they're enemies of football and want a team of James Perchs.

[Alex 35568]

Well I was young but I remember some of the crosses Ginola used to whip in for Les. HBA preferred to cut inside and shoot or beat that one man too many and often lose the ball

That's the modern trend of playing a left-footed player on the right though.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

I remember Ginola running down blind alleys, but yeah he would cross more than HBA did, but then, he had Sir Les and Shearer to aim for and was more of an old fashioned winger. Robert was too, but they both did fuck all to help out Beresford or Bernard. Trouble is, long enough time has passed to sand down the rough edges of their Newcastle career, now they're revered, but at the time there were plenty of people moaning on that they didn't get stuck in. Just like, in 5 years time when we've signed some fancy Dan winger who has unbelievable talent, there'll be people moaning that he doesn't track back. Because they're enemies of football and want a team of James Perchs.

Ba and Cisse were both capable enough in the air

Not to the same extent but not to the extent a winger would think it's pointless crossing it in.

 

Would you sign somebody on fm whose mental attributes were all below 5?

[The Fish 10963]

Ba and Cisse were both capable enough in the air

Not to the same extent but not to the extent a winger would think it's pointless crossing it in.

 

Would you sign somebody on fm whose mental attributes were all below 5?

 

I meant that Ginola was a winger and the players he had ahead of him were centre forwards. HBA wasn't a classic winger and is more a wide forward/attacking midfielder, and the players he had ahead of him weren't the types of striker that would best benefit from him, nor would he benefit from. He'd have been better off playing alongside deeper lying players or busy players making runs.

 

I wouldn't, but then I can confirm that HBA's mental attributes aren't all below 5.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

I meant that Ginola was a winger and the players he had ahead of him were centre forwards. HBA wasn't a classic winger and is more a wide forward/attacking midfielder, and the players he had ahead of him weren't the types of striker that would best benefit from him, nor would he benefit from. He'd have been better off playing alongside deeper lying players or busy players making runs.

 

I wouldn't, but then I can confirm that HBA's mental attributes aren't all below 5.

They would be if they didn't want to straight out insult the guy. He's a selfish little cunt man. I don't know how many times he has to prove that throughout his career

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Most of Ginola's runs were from his own half.He got back to make a nuisance of himself.HBA only showed interest when he had the ball at his feet.Defensive responsibilities were of no interest to him.

[The Fish 10963]

They would be if they didn't want to straight out insult the guy. He's a selfish little cunt man. I don't know how many times he has to prove that throughout his career

 

Most really good players need that selfish ego to really get to their peak. Shearer had it, Cole had it, Ginola, Robert, Cabaye, and so on. I can't really think of a great player who wasn't a bit selfish.

 

Most of Ginola's runs were from his own half.He got back to make a nuisance of himself.HBA only showed interest when he had the ball at his feet.Defensive responsibilities were of no interest to him.

Revisionist bollocks. Ginola was famously lazy, an oft referenced quote from Beresford calls him out for it. 

[Howay 12496]

He never got over Pardew picking Gabriel Obertan ahead of him, it was a crushing blow to his confidence.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Most really good players need that selfish ego to really get to their peak. Shearer had it, Cole had it, Ginola, Robert, Cabaye, and so on. I can't really think of a great player who wasn't a bit selfish.

 

Revisionist bollocks. Ginola was famously lazy, an oft referenced quote from Beresford calls him out for it.

HBA isn't a BIT selfish though is he

[Rayvin 5294]

I'm out for a quick surrender and apology, I won't go dk on him

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Rayvin

[Alex 35568]

John Beresford used to wear cowboy boots down the Quayside. A man not to be taken at his word.

[The Fish 10963]

HBA isn't a BIT selfish though is he

They all are man.

 

I honestly believe the big issue people have with Ben Arfa is that they truly believe that it's reasonable to expect him to be the complete player, because he's unbelievable going forward. Nobody bitches and moans that Tiote doesn't dribble past players, or Lascelles doesn't deliver quality crosses. It's not their job, but an attacking player must defend? 

 

If HBA had that mentality to chase lost causes and put his body on the line, on top of being wonderful in attack he'd be world class and would never, in his life, played for our club. Similarly if Colback had any footballing ability he'd be plying his trade for the biggest clubs in the world. But because the Ginger Pirlo works hard, people forgive his ineptitude, forgetting that football should be entertaining otherwise we should all go and watch Iron Man events.

 

Look at him go man, just look at him go

 

I couldn't find any highlight videos for Jack Colback trying hard, sorry.