Andrew 4713 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The only change I want to see in Ben Arfa is for him to start trying to place the ball rather than smash it at the top corner when he works himself a space in the box, a tiny amount more composure from him there and we'd see a lot more goals rather than the ball flying over the bar or crashing off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The former is a product of having a short amount of time in which to make a mark IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4669 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Its quite interesting that there is still such a gulf in opinion around Ben Arfa. Most players settle into a category where the majority of fans can agree after such a period of time. Obviously we all have hopes for young'uns or new players but the difference opinion stated between Tooj and Rolling Dynamite over Steven Taylor is rare. On Ben Arfa we have ardent "build a team around him" views from the likes of Ant, Tom, Parky etc to the likes of myself, Paddock Lad and Happy face who just arnt convinced that he will ever have the football brain to match his undoubted skill on the ball. (Apologies to PL and HF for tarring you with my "WUM" brush, but off the top of my head you two seem to speak imo the most sense about him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 32606 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 PaddockLad Christmas Tree ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aye, I can see the similarities to be quite honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4669 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Lol you think thier view is like yours?? At my end of the scale rather than yours. Regardless the point about the way he's viewed still stands. Edited January 2, 2014 by Christmas Tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 On Ben Arfa we have ardent "build a team around him" views from the likes of Ant, Tom, Parky etc to the likes of myself, Paddock Lad and Happy face who just arnt convinced that he will ever have the football brain to match his undoubted skill on the ball. (Apologies to PL and HF for tarring you with my "WUM" brush, but off the top of my head you two seem to speak imo the most sense about him). Think it's daft to attribute teams and make it that black and white. It's that sort of divisive "them and us" attitude that reduces the debate to worthlessness where either side is more interested in fighting their corner rather than offering or benefiting from any insight. It's the same thing you did with the team negative bullshit. Ben Arfa excites me more than any player since I got my season ticket when Robson arrived. He's an incredible talent. There's people on here that watched him regularly at previous clubs and know a lot more than me about what other managers have got from him so they have a thing or two to teach me about that and I wouldn't question it (much). I think even his most ardent supporters on here who defend him against any criticism and his harshest critics will agree that whatever talent he has is only being occasionally exploited though. Where disagreement comes in is whether it's down to Pardew's misuse of him and the players around him or down to the player and his attitude. I think it's both to some extent and there'll never be any consensus how much. I have been hugely exasperated by both his decision making and by Pardew's handling of him. There's only one way it will end well for him and us at NUFC though, and that is if he knuckles down and busts a gut to deliver what Pardew asks of him, because the only other alternative is that he doesn't see much more game time and ultimately goes elsewhere and another manager shows what more Pardew could possibly have got from him. Despite being the most talented player we have he's several rungs off being our most important player and I've no doubt Pardew will outlast him if he doesn't embrace the "vision" of the manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 16992 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 PaddockLad Christmas Tree ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aye, I can see the similarities to be quite honest. I would like to disassociate myself completely from any comments on this board eminating from the South Tyneside waterfowl/Italian cuisine expert. However, I do like the way Ant chomps every single fuckin time so keep it up CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4669 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Think it's daft to attribute teams and make it that black and white. It's that sort of divisive "them and us" attitude that reduces the debate to worthlessness where either side is more interested in fighting their corner rather than offering or benefiting from any insight. It's the same thing you did with the team negative bullshit. Ben Arfa excites me more than any player since I got my season ticket when Robson arrived. He's an incredible talent. There's people on here that watched him regularly at previous clubs and know a lot more than me about what other managers have got from him so they have a thing or two to teach me about that and I wouldn't question it (much). I think even his most ardent supporters on here who defend him against any criticism and his harshest critics will agree that whatever talent he has is only being occasionally exploited though. Where disagreement comes in is whether it's down to Pardew's misuse of him and the players around him or down to the player and his attitude. I think it's both to some extent and there'll never be any consensus how much. I have been hugely exasperated by both his decision making and by Pardew's handling of him. There's only one way it will end well for him and us at NUFC though, and that is if he knuckles down and busts a gut to deliver what Pardew asks of him, because the only other alternative is that he doesn't see much more game time and ultimately goes elsewhere and another manager shows what more Pardew could possibly have got from him. Despite being the most talented player we have he's several rungs off being our most important player and I've no doubt Pardew will outlast him if he doesn't embrace the "vision" of the manager. I'm not trying to make teams, I'm just pointing out the scale of views on him by mentioning examples of those who have commented. As for the majority of the rest of your post I agree, other than what he did elsewhere carries little weight with me after this period of time. Edited January 2, 2014 by Christmas Tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Think it's daft to attribute teams and make it that black and white. It's that sort of divisive "them and us" attitude that reduces the debate to worthlessness where either side is more interested in fighting their corner rather than offering or benefiting from any insight. It's the same thing you did with the team negative bullshit. Ben Arfa excites me more than any player since I got my season ticket when Robson arrived. He's an incredible talent. There's people on here that watched him regularly at previous clubs and know a lot more than me about what other managers have got from him so they have a thing or two to teach me about that and I wouldn't question it (much). I think even his most ardent supporters on here who defend him against any criticism and his harshest critics will agree that whatever talent he has is only being occasionally exploited though. Where disagreement comes in is whether it's down to Pardew's misuse of him and the players around him or down to the player and his attitude. I think it's both to some extent and there'll never be any consensus how much. I have been hugely exasperated by both his decision making and by Pardew's handling of him. There's only one way it will end well for him and us at NUFC though, and that is if he knuckles down and busts a gut to deliver what Pardew asks of him, because the only other alternative is that he doesn't see much more game time and ultimately goes elsewhere and another manager shows what more Pardew could possibly have got from him. Despite being the most talented player we have he's several rungs off being our most important player and I've no doubt Pardew will outlast him if he doesn't embrace the "vision" of the manager. Your posts on Hatem have been sensible with a good outreach to both sides of the argument and I've never doubted you're a closet Hatem man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I'm not trying to make teams, I'm just pointing out the scale of views on him by mentioning examples of those who have commented. As for the majority of the rest of your post I agree, other than what he did elsewhere carries little weight with me after this period of time. Without a comparison to his stints at other clubs you have no basis for how Pardew's has management has helped or hindered his maturity as a player compared to other managers. I base my assumption that Pardew has improved him on the pure number of assists and goals he's produced, but I'm also told he was instrumental (rather than an irregular magician) in the title winning team he was a member of and who am I to argue with people that saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Without a comparison to his stints at other clubs you have no basis for how Pardew's has management has helped or hindered his maturity as a player compared to other managers. I base my assumption that Pardew has improved him on the pure number of assists and goals he's produced, but I'm also told he was instrumental (rather than an irregular magician) in the title winning team he was a member of and who am I to argue with people that saw it Part of 5 title winning squads. We can debate to the end of time how instrumental he was. Nasri has gone on record to say that pressure has stunted his, Hatem's and Menez development as the expectations have been too high for all of them. "Ben Arfa looked every bit the superstar during his four years at the club, winning the domestic title every year and picking up the Young Player of the Year award in 2007-08. Rumours of a rift with former youth team colleague Benzema seemed likely when coach Alain Perrin admitted “I wouldn’t say they go out as best mates” ahead of Lyon’s Champions League quarter final clash at Old Trafford in 2008. Ben Arfa looked to have put the issue behind him when he signed a contract extension with the French Champions later that month, but a training ground bust-up with another current Gunner, this time Sebastien Squillaci signalled an end to his time at Stade de Gerland. Supposed interest from English big hitters Man United and Arsenal, as well as Real Madrid, failed to materialise in the wake of doubts surrounding the 21-year-old’s temperament, despite his clear ability. A potential switch to a bigger club can’t have been helped by Ben Arfa publicly announcing his refusal to return to Lyon for pre-season training that summer, who finally cut their loses with the player and sold him to Marseille for around £10million ahead of the 2008/09 campaign. The transfer was further complicated by involvement from the Ligue de Football Professionel, who were forced to intervene after negotiations between the two clubs turned sour. At the end of 2008 Ben Arfa stuck the knife into his former club, telling a Lyon newspaper that they ‘lacked class’ and ‘weren’t a great side’. Less than a month into his spell with Marseille, Ben Arfa had another training session scuffle, this time with Djibril Cisse, who was promptly loaned to Sunderland. Ben Arfa played well in patches for the southern French outfit, but he continued to court controversy. Clashing with team-mate Modeste M’bami during a warm up did little to alter public image of the eccentric forward, whilst a refusal to leave the bench and come on as a substitute drew the ire of boss Eric Gerets. The season after he was fined nearly £10,000 for skipping training, and argued with new manager Didier Deschamps shortly into his reign. Despite their conflict, Deschamps liked Ben Arfa and he found some of his best form under the former Chelsea player." Edited January 2, 2014 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I reckon we're the biggest club Ben Arfa will play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Raging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper 940 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I reckon we're the biggest club Ben Arfa will play for. Do you think we'll be the last club he plays for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Do you think we'll be the last club he plays for ? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Could argue Marsille are bigger tbh, more honours domestic and european, bigger stadium, just a shitter league dometically. hardly matters though, i think he will end up in Italy if he leaves us. I suppose I should have said, he'll not move to a bigger club after us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I think he'll end up at Milan for some reason Because you're drunk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooneyToony 41 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I suppose I should have said, he'll not move to a bigger club after us Why not, Fish? I haven't followed this whole conversation but I guess it has something to do with wether the team does bettter without HBA or not, or something to that efffect. I think this argument is sophmoric and foolish. To try and connect our recent success (prior to these losses) to the fact that HBA was not in the starting eleven, or even more outragous, that Mike Williamson was and THAT's why we've had success. How silly. Anyway, HBA is an extremely useful player that I could see fill a role for just about any team in the world. If anyone thinks otherwise thats fine, but I just hope you never get hired to run NUFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Why not, Fish? I haven't followed this whole conversation but I guess it has something to do with wether the team does bettter without HBA or not, or something to that efffect. I think this argument is sophmoric and foolish. To try and connect our recent success (prior to these losses) to the fact that HBA was not in the starting eleven, or even more outragous, that Mike Williamson was and THAT's why we've had success. How silly. Anyway, HBA is an extremely useful player that I could see fill a role for just about any team in the world. If anyone thinks otherwise thats fine, but I just hope you never get hired to run NUFC. You should read the thread, before you construct arguments for other people. My point is simply that Hatem Ben Arfa will not move from us to a bigger club (even via other clubs). No Champions League club will take the risk. The same is true for a lot of our players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Arsenal & Chelsea both "took the risk" at the start of last season. They were told where to shove it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooneyToony 41 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 You should read the thread, before you construct arguments for other people. My point is simply that Hatem Ben Arfa will not move from us to a bigger club (even via other clubs). No Champions League club will take the risk. The same is true for a lot of our players. I didn't need to "construct" anything. I've seen and read this argument either in this thread and/or other threads. And anyway, that particular argument had nothing to do with the question I asked you. So anyway, you disagree with me about HBA. No big deal. I happen to think CL teams would risk taking him on and not think twice about it. We have a special player playing for NUFC and I just hope we find a way to make him and the team work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I didn't need to "construct" anything. I've seen and read this argument either in this thread and/or other threads. And anyway, that particular argument had nothing to do with the question I asked you. So anyway, you disagree with me about HBA. No big deal. I happen to think CL teams would risk taking him on and not think twice about it. We have a special player playing for NUFC and I just hope we find a way to make him and the team work. You're the best. Arsenal & Chelsea both "took the risk" at the start of last season. They were told where to shove it For Ben Arfa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Aye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4086 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Hope you're right Fish because Im half afraid someone will try and make a cheeky bid for him this month considering he cant get into the first team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10674 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Aye I don't remember any proper bid for Ben Arfa, from Arsenal, Chelsea, or anyone else to be honest. But fair enough. Still think it's downhill for him after us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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