Newcastle Finances in the Championship

[LeazesMag 0]

I loathed McKeag and his creatures as you well know

 

but this was a reasoned discussion on FINANCE - not a popularity contest between the various owners we've had (who have varied from the just about passable to the execrable in my 50 odd years watching them)

 

popularity contest ?

 

It seems to be to some, but not to me. To me, its about the club competing at the levels it should, and the hypocrites who jumped on the bandwagon and now loathe those who attracted them back, while the new owner, who took over from the "shit" chairman - who ran the club all on his own - is dragging the club downwards and into a decline due to lower aspirations and cost cutting which leaves us unable to attract the calibre of player clubs need if they wish to compete for the european places and high league positions.

 

Financially, the revenues have gone down. Who is responsible for the revenues going down and the club losing the ability to compete with other clubs who considered us rivals only a short time ago ? What has he done, and how can it be put right ?

[Toonpack 9948]

Tell you what, I'll lower myself down to the skunkers-type levels and call you "Toonspac". Great eh.

 

Put up an answer, where is this club going in the long run as you approve of all these changes ?

 

Then tell us if you still go to games, and then tell us when you stopped and why ?

 

Fucking hypocrite, just like the bellends you read on skunkers.

 

 

You don't know do you ??

 

The posts I've made on here include data from NUMEROUS sources, independent ones at that, to support my view/belief (none from Skunkers BTW).

 

Please respond the same.

 

If you do I'll answer ALL your irrelevant questions.

[LeazesMag 0]

Tell you what, I'll lower myself down to the skunkers-type levels and call you "Toonspac". Great eh.

 

Put up an answer, where is this club going in the long run as you approve of all these changes ?

 

Then tell us if you still go to games, and then tell us when you stopped and why ?

 

Fucking hypocrite, just like the bellends you read on skunkers.

 

 

You don't know do you ??

 

The posts I've made on here include data from NUMEROUS sources, independent ones at that, to support my view/belief (none from Skunkers BTW).

 

Please respond the same.

 

If you do I'll answer ALL your irrelevant questions.

 

As I said, despite your doom-mongering opinions, 15 football clubs in the premiership are NOT going to go bust and out of existence, especially one with [or did have] the 3rd biggest support and the fanbase of NUFC.

 

You don't support the club anymore do you You're a hypocrite.

[Toonpack 9948]

As I said, despite your doom-mongering opinions, 15 football clubs in the premiership are NOT going to go bust and out of existence, especially one with [or did have] the 3rd biggest support and the fanbase of NUFC.

 

You don't support the club anymore do you You're a hypocrite.

 

Please see my post regarding Prem debt and how it's guaranteed/structured by club.

 

How was NUFC going to generate the cash needed to fulfill your expectations?

[LeazesMag 0]

As I said, despite your doom-mongering opinions, 15 football clubs in the premiership are NOT going to go bust and out of existence, especially one with [or did have] the 3rd biggest support and the fanbase of NUFC.

 

You don't support the club anymore do you You're a hypocrite.

 

Please see my post regarding Prem debt and how it's guaranteed/structured by club.

 

How was NUFC going to generate the cash needed to fulfill your expectations?

 

the Halls and Shepherd managed it

 

of course, we are now competing with the likes of Stoke. If you still went to games, to support the club that has a bright future according to you, you would maybe realise that.

[Toonpack 9948]

As I said, despite your doom-mongering opinions, 15 football clubs in the premiership are NOT going to go bust and out of existence, especially one with [or did have] the 3rd biggest support and the fanbase of NUFC.

 

You don't support the club anymore do you You're a hypocrite.

 

Please see my post regarding Prem debt and how it's guaranteed/structured by club.

 

How was NUFC going to generate the cash needed to fulfill your expectations?

 

the Halls and Shepherd managed it

 

of course, we are now competing with the likes of Stoke. If you still went to games, to support the club that has a bright future according to you, you would maybe realise that.

 

They managed it until the credit was exhausted. How, given the financial position of the club in 2007, would you generate the finance to deliver your expectation.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Toonpack

[LeazesMag 0]

As I said, despite your doom-mongering opinions, 15 football clubs in the premiership are NOT going to go bust and out of existence, especially one with [or did have] the 3rd biggest support and the fanbase of NUFC.

 

You don't support the club anymore do you You're a hypocrite.

 

Please see my post regarding Prem debt and how it's guaranteed/structured by club.

 

How was NUFC going to generate the cash needed to fulfill your expectations?

 

the Halls and Shepherd managed it

 

of course, we are now competing with the likes of Stoke. If you still went to games, to support the club that has a bright future according to you, you would maybe realise that.

 

They managed it until the credit was exhausted. How, given the financial position of the club in 2007, would you generate the finance to deliver your expectation.

 

fuck me.

 

How do the others do it. YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU, THE PLAYING FIELD IS THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY AND WE ARE STILL MILES BIGGER THAN MOST CLUBS IN THE PREMIERSHIP, WE ARE NOT STOKE CITY OR BOLTON.

 

Fat Fred was paid a lot of money for this job, he obviously did it quite well, despite what many people predicted and slated him for not doing. If he was so shit, why don't YOU tell us what he did that your man isn't doing ?

 

Rocket science.

 

When did you stop going to games ? Why aren't you supporting what you claim is a club on the up...exciting times and everything

[NJS 4411]

How do the others do it. YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU, THE PLAYING FIELD IS THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY AND WE ARE STILL MILES BIGGER THAN MOST CLUBS IN THE PREMIERSHIP, WE ARE NOT STOKE CITY OR BOLTON.

 

Name a club that has borrowed money and spent it on players in the last 3 years.

[LeazesMag 0]

How do the others do it. YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU, THE PLAYING FIELD IS THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY AND WE ARE STILL MILES BIGGER THAN MOST CLUBS IN THE PREMIERSHIP, WE ARE NOT STOKE CITY OR BOLTON.

 

Name a club that has borrowed money and spent it on players in the last 3 years.

 

how have we dived down footballs rich list in the last few years ?

 

How did "shit" Fat Fred do his job better than the financial whizz kid ?

 

 

When will we qualify for the Champions League again ? When will we stop selling our best players and become a buying club again ? When will you stop thinking we are a small club like Stoke and Bolton ?

 

When will Toonpack go to games again [when we buy trophy players and get into europe] ?

[LeazesMag 0]

this goes round in circles again. Toonpack and his chums think we are a small club like Bolton and Stoke. Myself and a few others realise that revenues are down and we are bigger than clubs such as Bolton and Stoke. Who said anything about credit ? Why aren't we selling shirts, attracting sponsors, corporate areas, season tickets, other commercial income, like we did before, and do they not realise you get more money for finishing higher up the league, and even more if you qualify for europe ? Why have we dived down the rich list ? Why do they accept selling our best players and the money not going to the manager who is forced to buy inferior replacements ? Why do people accept bottom of the league mediocrity and a club which is only aiming for 10th ? I hope they aren't the same fools who booed when we finished 5th ?

 

The irony is that they themselves if they have stopped going, are actually contributing to the loss of income, however small a part. What hypocrites.

 

Anyway.

Edited April 4, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Toonpack 9948]

this goes round in circles again. Toonpack and his chums think we are a small club like Bolton and Stoke. Myself and a few others realise that revenues are down and we are bigger than clubs such as Bolton and Stoke. Who said anything about credit ? Why aren't we selling shirts, attracting sponsors, corporate areas, season tickets, other commercial income, like we did before, and do they not realise you get more money for finishing higher up the league, and even more if you qualify for europe ? Why have we dived down the rich list ? Why do they accept selling our best players and the money not going to the manager who is forced to buy inferior replacements ? Why do people accept bottom of the league mediocrity and a club which is only aiming for 10th ? I hope they aren't the same fools who booed when we finished 5th ?

 

The irony is that they themselves if they have stopped going, are actually contributing to the loss of income, however small a part. What hypocrites.

 

Anyway.

 

The club was built on credit you fool, what do you think debt is

 

We used the revenues to pay the creditors so we could spend year on year more than we earned (revenues). Even at their peak our revenues were short of our spend (that'd be what losses are btw).

 

In 2007 our credit was maxed out, we needed more, who was going to lend it to us (just to stand still we needed to borrow about £120 million over 4 years because we were losing around £30 Million every year).

 

Where was it comming from Leazes.

 

Oh I know we can cover it through revenues, I mean £30 million a year is only 1.5 million additional shirt sales (at £20 profit a shirt) or 600 corporate boxes at £50K a season, piss easy I guess

 

Edit - Maybe you could answer NJS' question as well while you're on.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Toonpack

[peasepud 59]

That's a ridiculous comparison to make. For a start, the Asian market was hardly some genius idea that FS came up with, everyone knew it was an expanding market. You can try all the PR shite you want out there but the fact is that 95% of Asian fans will choose a team to support based on success on the pitch. We were out of the CL a few years before FS sold up and therefore weren't of any interest to those in the Asian market.

 

Also, the Rich List is a misnomer, it is based on income rather while ignoring outgoings, no one should take it too seriously.

You've still got me lost with this like.

 

For a start, the Asian market was hardly some genius idea that FS came up with, everyone knew it was an expanding market.

I didnt realise that NJS had stated he wanted the things Shepherd did that nobody else in the world ever did. At the end of the day he knew that success on the pitch and expanding into that market went hand in hand.

 

You can try all the PR shite you want out there but the fact is that 95% of Asian fans will choose a team to support based on success on the pitch.

This is where I sympathise with LM totally. Fans who are willing to sacrifice that last bit for financial "success" cant really be fans. You cant be otherwise all you would want is success on the pitch it is all that should matter.

 

Also, the Rich List is a misnomer, it is based on income rather while ignoring outgoings, no one should take it too seriously.

Im still totally bemused by this gem, maybe its because Im thick but I thought NJS had asked for proof that Shepherd was doing things to bring in money that Ashley wasnt. Under your logic then that argument is proven using the rich list.

 

2008

 

2010

 

Feel free to analyse it whichever way you want however they all show a club doing better in 2007 than 2009.

 

Rich List placing - Better in 2007

Value higher in 2007

Revenue higher in 2007

Operating income higher in 2007

 

As for debt, in 2007 ours was 43% of our value, the same as Arsenal and 14% less than Man Uniteds. Now its shown as 8% yet according to Dekka we now owe a total of £150m, 139.5m of which is to Mikey . Even assuming the value of the club has not decreased (and Im sure it has) then that would make our current debt % just over 75%. Remind me again how thats progress?

 

How about using the Deloittes Football Money league as our comparison then if the Forbes list is useless?

 

 

so, yes we were slowly dropping down the league positions as other clubs got richer but generally our income under Shepherd was fairly stable, now look at it.

 

However you put it I cant see where MA is doing better than FS, thats not a defence of Shepherd, its a slating of our "saviour"

[NJS 4411]

PP: As I've said relegation was 100% his fault imo but you can't honestly quote figures which are blatantly down to that and then say they illustrate something else ie something generally different in the business. Quoting any figure for 2010 is pretty "unfair" in that context surely?

 

I think you also ignored the point that on that basis in 2008 the rich list figure (not position) was higher than any previous figure.

[ChezGiven 0]

The loss in revenues are simple. Relegation (TV money), Keegan debacle (ticket sales) and Recession (corporate boxes).

[peasepud 59]

PP: As I've said relegation was 100% his fault imo but you can't honestly quote figures which are blatantly down to that and then say they illustrate something else ie something generally different in the business. Quoting any figure for 2010 is pretty "unfair" in that context surely?

 

I think you also ignored the point that on that basis in 2008 the rich list figure (not position) was higher than any previous figure.

 

Im more than happy to include that stat, you do realise that the 2008 figures are Shepherd dont you as these would relate to the 2006/07 financial year, just as 2010 relates to 2008/09 (ie pre relegation)

 

And I cant see how relegation can be ignored as a factor unless you're now seriously stating that on field factors should not be taken into account when talking finances????

 

This whole argument is based on the chairman/owners abilities to raise revenue. As a football club, the bulk of that revenue would come from the on field activities. The whole point myself, LM and others are making. If Shepherd had got us relegated (which he didnt) then I would have included the figures from that.

 

Income increases with the quality on the pitch, Shepherd knew that and worked towards that, at first he was successful and we hit CL and reaped the rewards, later on he wasnt but he still strived for it. The very thing that many on here are arguing he shouldnt have done.

 

Ashley does the opposite, hopes to stay in the league on a shoestring.

 

Its easy to see who was the most successful at raising income.

[NJS 4411]

PP: As I've said relegation was 100% his fault imo but you can't honestly quote figures which are blatantly down to that and then say they illustrate something else ie something generally different in the business. Quoting any figure for 2010 is pretty "unfair" in that context surely?

 

I think you also ignored the point that on that basis in 2008 the rich list figure (not position) was higher than any previous figure.

 

Im more than happy to include that stat, you do realise that the 2008 figures are Shepherd dont you as these would relate to the 2006/07 financial year, just as 2010 relates to 2008/09 (ie pre relegation)

 

And I cant see how relegation can be ignored as a factor unless you're now seriously stating that on field factors should not be taken into account when talking finances????

 

This whole argument is based on the chairman/owners abilities to raise revenue. As a football club, the bulk of that revenue would come from the on field activities. The whole point myself, LM and others are making. If Shepherd had got us relegated (which he didnt) then I would have included the figures from that.

 

Income increases with the quality on the pitch, Shepherd knew that and worked towards that, at first he was successful and we hit CL and reaped the rewards, later on he wasnt but he still strived for it. The very thing that many on here are arguing he shouldnt have done.

 

Ashley does the opposite, hopes to stay in the league on a shoestring.

 

Its easy to see who was the most successful at raising income.

 

Fair point on the figures relating to previous years which I accept and apologise for.

 

I don't think I've ever tried to deny that there is a complete link between football and financial performance - in fact what I've been arguing agsinst is the attempt by some (more LM than you) to abstract that to one of pure business competence where I don't accept that Shepherd was somehow "better" then Ashley. By this I mean in day to day activities not directly related to the football like raising sponsorship and/or reducing costs.

 

What I'm also trying to argue against is a polar view where everything Shepherd did was "great" and everything Ashley has done has been "shit". My view is that there has been good and bad elements to both regimes. I think attempting to reign in wages and to rely more on non-credit revenues is a laudible aim - even if it causes me pain to say that given my overall view of him and I think the "unambitious" definition of intent is one I'd call realistic though disappointing. I also think LM's view that "all" we have to do is run the club like Shepherd did to ensure success is fucking stupid in 2011. I think comparing methods not allowing for how football and finance has changed in the last 5 years is daft and isn't as black and white as even you suggest.

[Toonpack 9948]

Im more than happy to include that stat, you do realise that the 2008 figures are Shepherd dont you as these would relate to the 2006/07 financial year, just as 2010 relates to 2008/09 (ie pre relegation)

 

And I cant see how relegation can be ignored as a factor unless you're now seriously stating that on field factors should not be taken into account when talking finances????

 

This whole argument is based on the chairman/owners abilities to raise revenue. As a football club, the bulk of that revenue would come from the on field activities. The whole point myself, LM and others are making. If Shepherd had got us relegated (which he didnt) then I would have included the figures from that.

 

Income increases with the quality on the pitch, Shepherd knew that and worked towards that, at first he was successful and we hit CL and reaped the rewards, later on he wasnt but he still strived for it. The very thing that many on here are arguing he shouldnt have done.

 

Ashley does the opposite, hopes to stay in the league on a shoestring.

 

Its easy to see who was the most successful at raising income.

 

The problem is Pud, he strived and failed and left the club a financial shambles with a chasm to climb out of. The world was changing long before they sold up but the methods didn’t.

 

My argument is that there was a time when we could afford that route, but it had long gone, and to continue was beyond foolish and it put the club in an incredibly bad financial position and was absolutely unsustainable .

 

At the point of sale the club had no credit lines left and had just recorded a record loss of £34.2 Million, furthermore the trend for losses, and thus debt, was up, not down (it did, and has, continued to double every 4 years).

 

Just to stand still, on revenues alone, we’d have to have generated circa £120million a year, I doubt even Fred at his “magician” best couldn’t have pulled that off.

 

So we were left with the need to fund the club operations with credit, as I’ve said ad nauseaum, where could that money have been sourced from ??

[LeazesMag 0]

this goes round in circles again. Toonpack and his chums think we are a small club like Bolton and Stoke. Myself and a few others realise that revenues are down and we are bigger than clubs such as Bolton and Stoke. Who said anything about credit ? Why aren't we selling shirts, attracting sponsors, corporate areas, season tickets, other commercial income, like we did before, and do they not realise you get more money for finishing higher up the league, and even more if you qualify for europe ? Why have we dived down the rich list ? Why do they accept selling our best players and the money not going to the manager who is forced to buy inferior replacements ? Why do people accept bottom of the league mediocrity and a club which is only aiming for 10th ? I hope they aren't the same fools who booed when we finished 5th ?

 

The irony is that they themselves if they have stopped going, are actually contributing to the loss of income, however small a part. What hypocrites.

 

Anyway.

 

The club was built on credit you fool, what do you think debt is

 

We used the revenues to pay the creditors so we could spend year on year more than we earned (revenues). Even at their peak our revenues were short of our spend (that'd be what losses are btw).

 

In 2007 our credit was maxed out, we needed more, who was going to lend it to us (just to stand still we needed to borrow about £120 million over 4 years because we were losing around £30 Million every year).

 

Where was it comming from Leazes.

 

Oh I know we can cover it through revenues, I mean £30 million a year is only 1.5 million additional shirt sales (at £20 profit a shirt) or 600 corporate boxes at £50K a season, piss easy I guess

 

Edit - Maybe you could answer NJS' question as well while you're on.

 

its the same for everybody else shithead...........and it is no excuse for allowing us to drop to the levels of Stoke and Bolton. We are 3 times the size of clubs like this, whatever the financial climate, it affects EVERYBODY. Get it ?

 

You're the fucking fool man. Get your head out of your arse and start supporting the team again, every bit helps, now that you have stopped going. You're a hypocrite.

[Toonpack 9948]

its the same for everybody else shithead...........and it is no excuse for allowing us to drop to the levels of Stoke and Bolton. We are 3 times the size of clubs like this, whatever the financial climate, it affects EVERYBODY. Get it ?

 

You're the fucking fool man. Get your head out of your arse and start supporting the team again, every bit helps, now that you have stopped going. You're a hypocrite.

 

It's not the same for everyone, the majority of Premier League club lending is underwritten by an owner/benefactor. NUFC's credit markedly was not, it was mortgaged/guaranteed against the assets of the club itself, to the point where there was NO equity.

 

How was the club to generate the money it needed to survive (over £30 million a year from 2007) Eh ???? Let alone the millions needed to "push on" and compete at it's "rightfull" level.

[LeazesMag 0]

its the same for everybody else shithead...........and it is no excuse for allowing us to drop to the levels of Stoke and Bolton. We are 3 times the size of clubs like this, whatever the financial climate, it affects EVERYBODY. Get it ?

 

You're the fucking fool man. Get your head out of your arse and start supporting the team again, every bit helps, now that you have stopped going. You're a hypocrite.

 

It's not the same for everyone, the majority of Premier League club lending is underwritten by an owner/benefactor. NUFC's credit markedly was not, it was mortgaged/guaranteed against the assets of the club itself, to the point where there was NO equity.

 

How was the club to generate the money it needed to survive (over £30 million a year from 2007) Eh ???? Let alone the millions needed to "push on" and compete at it's "rightfull" level.

 

give it a rest man.. Where will we be in 5 years time, that will be after 9 years of Ashley ? Competing with the likes of Shrewsbury again ?

 

If you think the likes of Spurs and Liverpool are doing it all wrong, and we are doing it right, you're a fucking idiot. And you don't go to games and support these exciting times do you ? Hypocrite.

[tiotesleftfoot 0]

We are a stable club financially nothing to worry about with cheap signings like Tiote, Willo and HBA!

 

Speaking of HBA, he nearly lost his leg after his injury!!!!!

 

http://www.newcastlefcnews.com/2011/04/ben...but-nearly.html

[peasepud 59]

The problem is Pud, he strived and failed and left the club a financial shambles with a chasm to climb out of. The world was changing long before they sold up but the methods didn’t.

 

My argument is that there was a time when we could afford that route, but it had long gone, and to continue was beyond foolish and it put the club in an incredibly bad financial position and was absolutely unsustainable .

 

At the point of sale the club had no credit lines left and had just recorded a record loss of £34.2 Million, furthermore the trend for losses, and thus debt, was up, not down (it did, and has, continued to double every 4 years).

 

Just to stand still, on revenues alone, we’d have to have generated circa £120million a year, I doubt even Fred at his “magician” best couldn’t have pulled that off.

 

So we were left with the need to fund the club operations with credit, as I’ve said ad nauseaum, where could that money have been sourced from ??

 

I still dont believe that we were a financial shambles, yes we were in debt but as proven with man U, Arsenal etc that is still sustainable as long as you have income. Nobody knows what Shepherd would have done without the lines of credit, he'd have had to do something, whether that was financing it himself/ through others to provide loans as Ashley has done or cost cutting (as Ashley has also done).

 

One thing is for certain he would have looked to maximise the revenues rather than simply minimise outgoings. Its been an argument Ive kept repeating for well over 2 years now. There are two ways to increse profit/reduce debt. The first is to slash costs to the bone, the second increase income.

 

Ashleys route one, Shepherd would have been route 2.

Ashleys results in us becoming a selling club, I dont doubt that we would have struggled under Shepherd for the couple of years following however I do believe he would have been working on getting us back up there and not simply being content to survive.

 

My posts however were in response to NJS and the assumption that Shepherd was no better than Ashley at bringing in revenue. I think its clear thats not the case.

[Toonpack 9948]

its the same for everybody else shithead...........and it is no excuse for allowing us to drop to the levels of Stoke and Bolton. We are 3 times the size of clubs like this, whatever the financial climate, it affects EVERYBODY. Get it ?

 

You're the fucking fool man. Get your head out of your arse and start supporting the team again, every bit helps, now that you have stopped going. You're a hypocrite.

 

It's not the same for everyone, the majority of Premier League club lending is underwritten by an owner/benefactor. NUFC's credit markedly was not, it was mortgaged/guaranteed against the assets of the club itself, to the point where there was NO equity.

 

How was the club to generate the money it needed to survive (over £30 million a year from 2007) Eh ???? Let alone the millions needed to "push on" and compete at it's "rightfull" level.

 

give it a rest man.. Where will we be in 5 years time, that will be after 9 years of Ashley ? Competing with the likes of Shrewsbury again ?If you think the likes of Spurs and Liverpool are doing it all wrong, and we are doing it right, you're a fucking idiot. And you don't go to games and support these exciting times do you ? Hypocrite.

 

We'd probably be doing that now if we didn't have an owner with deep pockets.

 

Spurs - their ONLY debt is debt they took on to develop their training complex. They operate within their means and they've just turned a profit.

 

Liverpool - Massive debts but they turn a profit (well they did when they were locked in the Champs league) and their sponsorship is 10 times ours. The new owner has said, they must sell to buy. Be interesting how they do now they've "slipped".

 

We had Champions League debts and costs on a non Champions League footing, where'd the money come from Leazes to assault the 4 - 6 of top of the league.

[LeazesMag 0]

its the same for everybody else shithead...........and it is no excuse for allowing us to drop to the levels of Stoke and Bolton. We are 3 times the size of clubs like this, whatever the financial climate, it affects EVERYBODY. Get it ?

 

You're the fucking fool man. Get your head out of your arse and start supporting the team again, every bit helps, now that you have stopped going. You're a hypocrite.

 

It's not the same for everyone, the majority of Premier League club lending is underwritten by an owner/benefactor. NUFC's credit markedly was not, it was mortgaged/guaranteed against the assets of the club itself, to the point where there was NO equity.

 

How was the club to generate the money it needed to survive (over £30 million a year from 2007) Eh ???? Let alone the millions needed to "push on" and compete at it's "rightfull" level.

 

give it a rest man.. Where will we be in 5 years time, that will be after 9 years of Ashley ? Competing with the likes of Shrewsbury again ?If you think the likes of Spurs and Liverpool are doing it all wrong, and we are doing it right, you're a fucking idiot. And you don't go to games and support these exciting times do you ? Hypocrite.

 

We'd probably be doing that now if we didn't have an owner with deep pockets.

 

 

 

We were relegated under ASHLEY, NOT the Halls and Shepherd you brainwashed fool.

 

Edit, in fact the rest of your post is on the right track but you don't realise it. Are you saying that we should accept inferiority to Spurs and Liverpool and forget about ever challenging them again [under MIke Ashley, and the decline he has begun, selling our best players, buying 2nd rate ones etc etc]...what do you think of Spurs and Liverpool buying these despicable "trophy players" to get into the Champions League, and the money ?

 

You're a fool. As well as a hypocrite.

Edited April 5, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Toonpack 9948]

I still dont believe that we were a financial shambles, yes we were in debt but as proven with man U, Arsenal etc that is still sustainable as long as you have income. Nobody knows what Shepherd would have done without the lines of credit, he'd have had to do something, whether that was financing it himself/ through others to provide loans as Ashley has done or cost cutting (as Ashley has also done).

 

 

We'll never agree then, because I'm afraid all the evidence I look at points to financial meltdown.