Toon scout Graham Carr scours globe for talent

[ewerk 31195]

You'd think that he's at least worth keeping in a more limited role. Though maybe he wouldn't be happy with that.

[The Fish 10963]

Aye he's been one of the few good people working at the club in recent years, badly let down by the people he reported to.

 

71 now though and not rafas man.

 

Mad that some people give him shit for the players we sign when he spent years recommending really good players and ones who've gone on to be incredible and the board have tried to be clever and missed out time and time again

The argument I've heard is that he shouldn't ever have suggested the likes of Riviere. Part of me thinks he did so in a strop.

[Andrew 4856]

The argument I've heard is that he shouldn't ever have suggested the likes of Riviere. Part of me thinks he did so in a strop.

 

Well, with all due respect to people who would make that argument, that is a fucking stupid argument.

[Alex 35571]

He became, in effect, Director of Football, despite his title. Another case of Ashley promoting someone above and beyond their abilities. Good scout with a decent track record (not just here) but shouldn't have been a board member. He had a lot of influence with the owner and his relationship with McClaren was not only instrumental in the latter getting his job but also in holding onto it too long. Although how Charnley has seemingly managed to dodge a bullet is anyone's guess.

[The Fish 10963]

 

Well, with all due respect to people who would make that argument, that is a fucking stupid argument.

Well, I do know fucking stupid people.

[PaddockLad 17643]

Had lots of arguments with mates about whether he's to blame for much of our current car crash....I think he's in credit tbh,it wasn't down to him that decent players he brought to the club like Tiote, Cisse and Sussoko have been complelty de motivated for the last two seasons or so, but it's difficult to know what actually went on with Thauvin, Cabella and Rivière, or the Saivet/Doumbia debacle...players often don't go somewhere for "playing" reasons nowadays, look at the shit Dennis Wise and his wanker mates were up to behind KK's back etc.... I bet he could write a really good book about the Ashley years at NUFC, but I expect they'll be some "silence" clause in his leaving deal...shame, strikes me as one of the few actual decent people in the public eye that Ashley has employed.

[The Fish 10963]

I also think some of the players that haven't been a success (Cabella, Mbiwa, etc.) aren't necessarily bad players, just not right for that team at that time.

[Andrew 4856]

Cabella and Thauvin are his major failures imo, players like Gouffran and Riviere seemed like the 3rd/4th entries on his list when he was recommending Aubameyang and Lacazette but the board couldn't do the deals.

If you need players in and they work their way down a list, eventually the options aren't going to be that good.

Gouffran actually looked quite handy when he joined us, pacey winger/forward who could get a few goals, he is now a pedestrian defensive midfielder (or something like that) that is not Carrs fault, its the coaches.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

We're saviet and doumbia his choices? Those two alone should be sackable offended. Living off a few good signings made years back.

[gpirlo68 0]

Gouffran only cost about 1m his goals when he first joined paid for that imo, at the start of career here he worked really hard too

[The Fish 10963]

We're saviet and doumbia his choices? Those two alone should be sackable offended. Living off a few good signings made years back.

Is it not more likely that they were down the list of who he suggested?

[PaddockLad 17643]

We're saviet and doumbia his choices? Those two alone should be sackable offended. Living off a few good signings made years back.

Well there you go....what do we know about the background to those deals? Who were their agents and what sort of historic relationship did NUFC and/or Carr have with them?....Doumbia by all accounts has in the past looked a good player, but who struck THAT deal with his handlers? Don't know anything about Saivet. Was he signed to replace Tiote, who didn't in the end leave, and just fucked around after? Is any of that in the job description of the man who is basically being payed to identify talent? If his role was too much for him, why the fuck wasn't the problem identified and sorted out by someone? This "board" was just a fuckin nothing when it came to addressing what was truly going wrong at the club and that all comes back to one man.

[gpirlo68 0]

We're saviet and doumbia his choices? Those two alone should be sackable offended. Living off a few good signings made years back.

Doumbia was a just a risk that didn't pay off, it looks like we tried to get Berahino but only managed to get Doumbia

 

It's hard to judge Saviet when he's barely played but he must be shit if he's struggling to make our bench

 

Whoever is responsible for not bringing in defenders in the summer/January window wants sacking

[David Kelly 1260]

Well, with all due respect to people who would make that argument, that is a fucking stupid argument.

So he should have recommended shit players who were never going to be good enough?

[David Kelly 1260]

I also think some of the players that haven't been a success (Cabella, Mbiwa, etc.) aren't necessarily bad players, just not right for that team at that time.

Surely his job was to identify players who were right for the team at the time? What's the point recommending players who are just about to sign for top European clubs for amounts we aren't going to pay? Me or you could do that.

[Andrew 4856]

So he should have recommended shit players who were never going to be good enough?

 

Charnley : We want a really good striker Graham, make some recommendations

 

Carr : Lacazette is excellent, get him

 

Chanrley : Nah, far too expensive, got anyone who we could get for less?

 

Carr : Gignac is pretty decent too, he'd be a good shout

 

Chanrley : Bit rich for our blood there G, anyone else?

 

Carr : errrr, Nolan Roux had a good season last year, probably won't quite make the step up though

 

Changler : £9 million is quite a lot you know, who might be available in the 5-7 range?

 

Carr : Well, Monaco want rid of Riviere, he should be about that, hes got a bit of pace and had a decent return last year.

 

Cjha=afh : SMashing! we'll get that sorted.

 

 

Recommending players based on the criteria of his bosses is his job, not just recommending great players, he can't just say "No, I won't recommend anyone if you don't get my first choice" or he just gets sacked. Your job is to do as your managers say as long as it is within your contracted job description, a scout who won't recommend anyone isn't getting paid any time soon.

[David Kelly 1260]

Charnley : We want a really good striker Graham, make some recommendations

 

Carr : Lacazette is excellent, get him

 

Chanrley : Nah, far too expensive, got anyone who we could get for less?

 

Carr : Gignac is pretty decent too, he'd be a good shout

 

Chanrley : Bit rich for our blood there G, anyone else?

 

Carr : errrr, Nolan Roux had a good season last year, probably won't quite make the step up though

 

Changler : £9 million is quite a lot you know, who might be available in the 5-7 range?

 

Carr : Well, Monaco want rid of Riviere, he should be about that, hes got a bit of pace and had a decent return last year.

 

Cjha=afh : SMashing! we'll get that sorted.

 

 

Recommending players based on the criteria of his bosses is his job, not just recommending great players, he can't just say "No, I won't recommend anyone if you don't get my first choice" or he just gets sacked. Your job is to do as your managers say as long as it is within your contracted job description, a scout who won't recommend anyone isn't getting paid any time soon.

I don't think however useless Charnley is, that he's setting out a criteria of players who are clearly not premier league standard. Riviere clearly fits into that category. And if Carr can't find a better player than Riviere for that money then I would again argue that means he's failing at his job. Edited May 19, 2016 by David Kelly

[Andrew 4856]

We did sign Riviere off the back of him being Monacos top scorer in ligue 1, he outscored Falcao and James Rodriguez that season.

[David Kelly 1260]

I never saw him play for Monaco but from the first minute he arrived he looked clearly not up to scratch. I doubt if many of us had watched him in ligue 1 we'd have recommended him for us.

 

I'm not arguing he's completly hopeless btw. He's made some good recommendations as well as the ones that were either unrealistic or shite, and he's been working under restrictions that limit his ability to sign good players. I just get annoyed when people absolve him of responsibility for his errors. The biggest problem is, he's just a scout and has ended up with too much influence. A big reason for that is the lack of any other football knowledge in the club.

[The Fish 10963]

I never saw him play for Monaco but from the first minute he arrived he looked clearly not up to scratch. I doubt if many of us had watched him in ligue 1 we'd have recommended him for us.

 

I'm not arguing he's completly hopeless btw. He's made some good recommendations as well as the ones that were either unrealistic or shite, and he's been working under restrictions that limit his ability to sign good players. I just get annoyed when people absolve him of responsibility for his errors. The biggest problem is, he's just a scout and has ended up with too much influence. A big reason for that is the lack of any other football knowledge in the club.

 

I don't think people are absolving him though. I think the defence that Andrew has put forward is reasonable and in response to the claim that Carr has been living off a few good signings, or whatever. It doesn't take into account his remit or the restrictions that have been enforced by Charnley et al.

 

I agree with Andrew's take on the Riviere signing, we weren't signing the flop, we were gambling on Riviere continuing his form from the previous season for Monaco. I think that's backed up by the progression of the other players that he scouted; Aubameyang, Lacazette, Gignac etc. Some of those may have been well known, some less so, but Carr did call it right and it was the moneymen who didn't push the deals through.

[ewerk 31195]

I don't think however useless Charnley is, that he's setting out a criteria of players who are clearly not premier league standard. Riviere clearly fits into that category. And if Carr can't find a better player than Riviere for that money then I would again argue that means he's failing at his job.

 

It was £6m. There aren't too many strikers signed for that sort of money who have gone on to be PL successes. The further down his list he has to go with a player the more risk there is involved.

[Happy Face 29]

I think Carr is harshly judged like. Many of our signings worst attributes have been attributable to their attitude as the club around them lurched from one shambles to another. They've largely shown an ability to be reasonably good players for us, without doing it consistently.

 

Whatever their failings, these have all contributed enough to satisfy their cost IYAM.

 

Cheick Tiote

Hatem Ben Arfa

Yohan Cabaye

Rob Elliot

Davide Santon

Papiss Demba Cissé

Vurnon Anita

Mathieu Debuchy

Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa

Massadio Haidara

Moussa Sissoko

Ayoze Perez

Daryl Janmaat

Karl Darlow

Jamaal Lascelles

Aleksandr Mitrovic

Chancel Mbemba

Andros Townsend

 

 

 

The list of those that haven't is smaller, but we could still recoup the fees of several...

 

Gabriel Obertan

Gael Bigirimana

Yoan Gouffran

Remy Cabella

Emmanuel Riviere

Siem De Jong

Jonjo Shelvy

Ivan Toney

Florian Thauvin

Henri Saivet

Georginio Wijnaldum

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3964]

I never saw Riviere play at Monaco and even though he was that leagues top scorer I can aussre you if I had indeed seen him play and score goals which I didn't then I definitely would not have recommended him above people who I also never saw but scored a lot less in the same position.

[David Kelly 1260]

I don't think people are absolving him though. I think the defence that Andrew has put forward is reasonable and in response to the claim that Carr has been living off a few good signings, or whatever. It doesn't take into account his remit or the restrictions that have been enforced by Charnley et al.

 

I agree with Andrew's take on the Riviere signing, we weren't signing the flop, we were gambling on Riviere continuing his form from the previous season for Monaco. I think that's backed up by the progression of the other players that he scouted; Aubameyang, Lacazette, Gignac etc. Some of those may have been well known, some less so, but Carr did call it right and it was the moneymen who didn't push the deals through.

The form you talk about with Monaco is ten league goals. It's hardly sparkling form for one of the best teams (at the time) in a generally poor league. It was a poor gamble even without hindsight and it reflects badly on the people who took it. And Carr is one of those poeple . I'm in no way absolving Charnley mind. He's a much bigger problem who I hope can be managed by our new manager.

[David Kelly 1260]

I think Carr is harshly judged like. Many of our signings worst attributes have been attributable to their attitude as the club around them lurched from one shambles to another. They've largely shown an ability to be reasonably good players for us, without doing it consistently.

 

Whatever their failings, these have all contributed enough to satisfy their cost IYAM.

 

Cheick Tiote

Hatem Ben Arfa

Yohan Cabaye

Rob Elliot

Davide Santon

Papiss Demba Cissé

Vurnon Anita

Mathieu Debuchy

Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa

Massadio Haidara

Moussa Sissoko

Ayoze Perez

Daryl Janmaat

Karl Darlow

Jamaal Lascelles

Aleksandr Mitrovic

Chancel Mbemba

Andros Townsend

 

 

 

The list of those that haven't is smaller, but we could still recoup the fees of several...

 

Gabriel Obertan

Gael Bigirimana

Yoan Gouffran

Remy Cabella

Emmanuel Riviere

Siem De Jong

Jonjo Shelvy

 

Ivan Toney

Florian Thauvin

Henri Saivet

 

Georginio Wijnaldum

13 of those players that you considering somewhat successful have just got us relegated. Forgive me if I'm not particularly imrpessed with our recruitment.