Generic small time football blather thread

[BigWalrus 0]

All this chat is giving CT a lardon.

[PaddockLad 17280]

Hes out grafting tonight as it goes...say what you want about CT but he always brings home the bacon, and the shoulder, and the loin chops, and the fillet, and the belly, and the ribs......

[BigWalrus 0]

You sure it wasn't Robert Hoof?

[ADP 0]

Brings a new meaning to the term Hoof Ball.

[luckyluke 2]

Beckham is great like. Spent the overwhelming majority of his career at the very top. Won titles all over the place. Worked hard on the pitch even when his average pace deserted him and on the training ground to maintain his fitness and technical proficiency. Regularly scored goals which are technically difficult. Represented (2nd only to Shilton) and then lead his country.

 

But this is one of those conversations when the person who doesn't rate Beckham will say that Messi and Ronaldo are vastly superior footballers as if this means he's not great. He's excellent and while he's maybe not in the top 100 footballers that have played during his career, he wouldn't be far off. Beckham at his peak would still get into most teams that are vying for their top flight title.

 

He gets a lot of shit because he married a pop star, wore stupid clothes, sounds a bit dim and "cost Ingurland the wurwld cahp"*, but I think it's daft to say he wasn't a great.

 

care to put any more words in my mouth? Fine striker of a dead ball and as you say, worked hard wherever he went (even if it was just to keep him in shape for his pants adverts), but in my opinion a very good player as opposed to a great.

 

Of course it's all arbitrary and subjective, but I feel associating him with greatness is a (perhaps understandable) slight overreaction in an effort to emphasise the footballing credentials of a talented player who became increasingly famous for (and in recent years, let's be frank, more interested in) what he did off the pitch.

[Kid Dynamite 7030]

If you understand people associating him with greatness does that make you a moron?

[The Fish 10857]

care to put any more words in my mouth? Fine striker of a dead ball and as you say, worked hard wherever he went (even if it was just to keep him in shape for his pants adverts), but in my opinion a very good player as opposed to a great.

 

Of course it's all arbitrary and subjective, but I feel associating him with greatness is a (perhaps understandable) slight overreaction in an effort to emphasise the footballing credentials of a talented player who became increasingly famous for (and in recent years, let's be frank, more interested in) what he did off the pitch.

He wasn't just a player in great sides, he was often pivotal. I think his talent is tarnished with his association with off-field stuff. Objectively if a player had played a key role for Manchester United, Real Madrid and then in his waning years managed to pull on the shirts of Milan and Paris Saint-Germain without looking like a fat mess, had accumulated awards wherever he played, he'd surely be thought of as a great?

 

Genuinely think people haven't got past stuff like Victoria Beckham, that red card, the sarong, his accent, the media hype, etc.

[PaddockLad 17280]

He wasn't just a player in great sides, he was often pivotal. I think his talent is tarnished with his association with off-field stuff. Objectively if a player had played a key role for Manchester United, Real Madrid and then in his waning years managed to pull on the shirts of Milan and Paris Saint-Germain without looking like a fat mess, had accumulated awards wherever he played, he'd surely be thought of as a great?

 

Genuinely think people haven't got past stuff like Victoria Beckham, that red card, the sarong, his accent, the media hype, etc.

Thing is he was never the best player at manu or RM. There were true greats beside him. There's no way he was a better footballer than Giggs or Luis Figo, or Pires for that matter.Very good player though, often pivotal as you say (look at his contribution to manu's 2 goals v Bayern in the champs lge final...2 corners) but was he really any better, purely as a footballer, than Solano or Robert? ....tbf his attitude was, and that's what got him 100+ caps, but as a footballer he was very good rather than great.

[Tooj 17]

Beckham was dreadful in his first six months at Real when he'd believed people who told him that he could play a similar role to what Zidane did. That game against Northern Ireland when Sven decided to play him as "quarterback" man.

[Tooj 17]

TheFootballBar: Roberto Mancini takes out an advert in the paper to say goodbye to the Manchester City fans. #MCFC http://t.co/fjGCe5Qfxt

[Tooj 17]

Francois Piraux ‏@F8Piraux 36m

BREAKING : Deal done for Falcao, Tevez and Joao Moutinho to AS Monaco ! #ASMFC #TransferWindow #Monaco

Francois Piraux ‏@F8Piraux 20m

News about AS Monaco from a very reliable source in the club.

[Andrew 4759]

Wow

[Tom 14011]

Pretty mental

[luckyluke 2]

If you understand people associating him with greatness does that make you a moron?

 

It means I understand why they're morons.

 

Ok that was a bit over the top/inflammatory. I really don't get the swanning off to make a handfuls of appearances at clubs in cities where his wife wants to go shopping in the twilight of his career contributes to his greatness though.

 

Yes it is admirable that he didn't just sit on his cash in LA, and didn't look a fat mess, but not doing so are hardly in the criteria of being a great in my eyes.

[Monkeys Fist 42458]

TheFootballBar: Roberto Mancini takes out an advert in the paper to say goodbye to the Manchester City fans. #MCFC http://t.co/fjGCe5Qfxt

Nice touch.

[Tom 14011]

It means I understand why they're morons.

 

Ok that was a bit over the top/inflammatory. I really don't get the swanning off to make a handfuls of appearances at clubs in cities where his wife wants to go shopping in the twilight of his career contributes to his greatness though.

 

Yes it is admirable that he didn't just sit on his cash in LA, and didn't look a fat mess, but not doing so are hardly in the criteria of being a great in my eyes.

 

 

She gets a lot of blame but he's more of a fanny than her.

[The Fish 10857]

Thing is he was never the best player at manu or RM. There were true greats beside him. There's no way he was a better footballer than Giggs or Luis Figo, or Pires for that matter.Very good player though, often pivotal as you say (look at his contribution to manu's 2 goals v Bayern in the champs lge final...2 corners) but was he really any better, purely as a footballer, than Solano or Robert? ....tbf his attitude was, and that's what got him 100+ caps, but as a footballer he was very good rather than great.

Was he better than Solano or Robert? Yes. Yes he was. He could do everything they could, but better and more consistently. What makes Giggs definitely better than him? His athleticism? His directness or his pace? Yet Beckham consistently delivered the world class crosses, set pieces and passes that Giggs couldn't.

 

I guess it's a daft argument though, because the difference between great & very good is... what? Whether he used a flick-flack during a game? Whether someone values a 35yd pin point top bag finish that few would attempt over a drop of the shoulder, pivot finish that nobody saw coming, or whether the ability to beat men with a dribble is more important to greatness than the ability to beat men with a Hollywood pass.

 

I mean you could even argue there's a difference between being a Great Footballer, and a Footballing Great. Is he in the same class Footballing Greats like Zidane? No, clearly not. Is he a great footballer? Arguably, yes.

[PaddockLad 17280]

Was he better than Solano or Robert? Yes. Yes he was. He could do everything they could, but better and more consistently. What makes Giggs definitely better than him? His athleticism? His directness or his pace? Yet Beckham consistently delivered the world class crosses, set pieces and passes that Giggs couldn't.

 

I guess it's a daft argument though, because the difference between great & very good is... what? Whether he used a flick-flack during a game? Whether someone values a 35yd pin point top bag finish that few would attempt over a drop of the shoulder, pivot finish that nobody saw coming, or whether the ability to beat men with a dribble is more important to greatness than the ability to beat men with a Hollywood pass.

 

I mean you could even argue there's a difference between being a Great Footballer, and a Footballing Great. Is he in the same class Footballing Greats like Zidane? No, clearly not. Is he a great footballer? Arguably, yes.

Giggs could and still does things on a football pitch Beckham couldn't dream of doing and I notice you didn't mention Figo

If you were to do a completley unscientific poll of the best footballers who got a cap for any country between 1995 & 2005 I bet he wouldn't be in the top 10 am sure we could all give it a bash....think about it...

Edited May 18, 2013 by PaddockLad

[The Fish 10857]

Giggs could and still does things on a football pitch Beckham couldn't dream of doing and I notice you didn't mention Figo

If you were to do a completley unscientific poll of the best footballers who got a cap for any country between 1995 & 2005 I bet he wouldn't be in the top 10 am sure we could all give it a bash....think about it...

Which goes back to my earlier point. There's not a finite number of places. It's not World's best 100, it's just that he was a great footballer. Of course he wouldn't be in the top 10 footballers in that time. I never said he would, but it's honestly like he's suffering for the "Cult of Beckham" thing.

 

Tell you what, you tell me what makes a great footballer. Which attributes/achievements are required before someone can be called "Great".

[jonasjuice 0]

Twice runner up for world footballer of the year (granted these awards aren't perfect, but it's something Giggs never managed) and:

 

 

Individual

• Premier League Player of the Month (1): August 1996
  
• PFA Young Player of the Year (1): 1996–97
  
• FWA Tribute Award: 2008
  
• Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year (1): 1996–97
  
• England Player of the Year: 2003
  
• UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 1998–99
  
• UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year (1): 1998–99
  
• Premier League 10 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2001–02):
  
  • Domestic & Overall Team of the Decade
    
  • Goal of the Decade (vs. Wimbledon, 17 August 1996)
    

  [*]BBC Sports Personality of the Year (1): 2001

  [*]UEFA Team of the Year#Team of the Year: 2001,2003

  [*]Real Madrid Player of the Year (1): 2005–2006

  [*]PFA Team of the Year (4): 1996–97,1997–98,1998–99,1999–2000

  [*]FIFA 100^[199]

  [*]ESPY Award – Best Male Soccer Player: 2004^[200]

  [*]ESPY Award – Best MLS Player: 2008^[200]

  [*]English Football Hall of Fame: 2008

  [*]BBC Sports Personality of the Year Lifetime Achievement Award (1): 2010^[201]

  [*]MLS Comeback Player of the Year Award (1): 2011^[202]

  [*]Major League Soccer Best XI: 2011

  [*]ESPY Award: Best MLS Player 2011

 

Suggests he wasn't a bad player individually to go with his team's achievements, on the second rung behind the Zidane's and the Ronaldo's in his peak.. Great vs very good is semantics which is too subjective to get in to really. Certainly an England great anyway.

[Howmanheyman 33240]

Never in a million years a great.

[luckyluke 2]

Fish, you're vehemently fighting Beckham's corner, specifically against what your percieve as injust negativity towards him for the sargongs/Spice Girl marrying/cult stuff. The thing is I don't think all of it is that unjust. It doesn't matter what you wear or who you nob if you're a great or not, but let's be honest, for the last five years his career in football has not been his priority. Look at the likes of Giggs, Maldini, Totti who perform/performed at the biggest clubs in the biggest leagues well into the twilights of their careers. No-one says you have to, and if "breaking America" was more important to him then who am I to argue? But as a footballer it means I look a lot less favourably on him than I do on those I mentioned. Whether you can classify what he did before he went to LA as great is a different question and we obviously have a difference of opinion on it.

[jonasjuice 0]

Well sometimes judgement of the past can get a little hazy. Fact of the matter is he was twice considered by 'coaches and captains of international teams' as the second best player in the world. Totti never made it into the top 3. I know it's a little patronising to say, but if he was born in Italy and spent most of his career at Milan I think most people would be just saying how great a player he was right now.

 

Not an all time great (e.g. a top 20 player of all time), but a wonderful passer/crosser of the ball and I don't think it would be outrageous to suggest he was exceptional (2nd best in the world ) at his peak.

[PaddockLad 17280]

Well sometimes judgement of the past can get a little hazy. Fact of the matter is he was twice considered by 'coaches and captains of international teams' as the second best player in the world. Totti never made it into the top 3. I know it's a little patronising to say, but if he was born in Italy and spent most of his career at Milan I think most people would be just saying how great a player he was right now.

 

Not an all time great (e.g. a top 20 player of all time), but a wonderful passer/crosser of the ball and I don't think it would be outrageous to suggest he was exceptional (2nd best in the world ) at his peak.

Not for me. As I said, I can think of half a dozen of his peers who could do as much or indeed more on a football pitch than him. His gift was a great one, no doubt about that, but for me to be a truly great player you need more in your locker than great delivery of the ball. I liked the way he played, am sure Fergie told him not to overcomplicate things so he never really tried to take his full back on because he didn't need to. Robert Pires would annihilate his marker, apart from being an awful diver he was a thrilling player to watch, I much preferred him tbh, but he wasn't "one of the greats" either. Polls and awards are pointless tbh, theyre about as scientific as our opinions on here.

[PaddockLad 17280]

Which goes back to my earlier point. There's not a finite number of places. It's not World's best 100, it's just that he was a great footballer. Of course he wouldn't be in the top 10 footballers in that time. I never said he would, but it's honestly like he's suffering for the "Cult of Beckham" thing.

 

Tell you what, you tell me what makes a great footballer. Which attributes/achievements are required before someone can be called "Great".

For me, the "one off" players, the ones who do things on the pitch that no one has done before and we're not likely to see again....until the next great comes along and does it in a slightly different, but equally thrilling, way.Its also important to say its those who made the most of their talent, actually achieved honours, trophies and trinkets. So its the usual suspects; Pele, Maradonna, Bobby Charlton,,Beckenbauer, Cruyff ,Di Stefano, Puskas, Gerd Muller, Platini, Zidane, Fat Ronaldo, Skinny Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi etc etc....for me, Beckham doesn't even make the next tier down.......he wasn't as good as Gullit, Dalglish etc etc...he's been a very good player and achieved a hell of a lot, fair play to the bloke. But he will never be more than a very good player for me.