The Fish 10978 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Clicky What makes a big club big? One of easiest ways to wind up a Newcastle fan is to tell them their club isn’t big. Sure they have a huge fan base – that’s undeniable, but their trophy cabinet hasn’t seen much action in a while, so they can’t really call themselves a big club, right? They’re part of a group of clubs which sit just outside the ‘Big Four’ and for various reasons, haven’t seen much meaningful success in a few years and so, like bald men fighting over a comb, their fans have to content themselves by taking cheap digs at each other on radio phone-ins. Yet even what constitutes a ‘Big Four’ team is open to debate these days. Liverpool handed in their membership card last season and don’t look like renewing it anytime soon and even Champions Chelsea might find themselves on the outside come May. And, let's not forget, before Richard Keys and Andy Gray and their chums at Sky invented football, there was a Big Five that didn't include Chelsea. Essentially the Big Club argument centres on whether history and silverware trumps attendance and revenue. Silverware Here’s an easy one: Big Clubs win lots of stuff. Well, not quite. What's clear is it's actually very hard to win trophies, it always has been and success tends to coagulate around the same teams. Take the League for example; only three teams (you guessed it - Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal) have won the title more than ten times. The next most successful clubs are Everton (nine) and Aston Villa (seven). Chelsea - a Big Club, no? - have won the title four times. That's two less than Sunderland and the same as Newcastle and Sheffield Wednesday. The list of FA and League Cup winners tells pretty much the same tale, but if you crunch the numbers you find some interesting facts - Aston Villa are clearly the fourth 'biggest' English team in terms of domestic success (19 trophies) behind Manchester United (33), Liverpool (32) and Arsenal (25). In fact, throw in their European Cup from 1982 (a trophy two of the 'Big Four' - Chelsea and Arsenal - have so far failed to win) and in this category they're in an elite group. Chelsea can add six FA Cup wins to their four League titles - exactly the same as Newcastle on both counts and they both have a European trophy to their name. No doubt the phone-in know-it-alls will point out that Newcastle haven’t won anything since 1969 (when they picked up the Fairs Cup, the precursor to the Uefa Cup) and you have to go even further to 1955 for a domestic success. Yet since then, to name a few, Leicester, Middlesbrough and Swindon have all won trophies. So have Oxford, who now play in League Two, and Luton who don't even ply their trade in the League any more. Are they really bigger than Newcastle? Fan base and infrastructure Now we're talking: bums on seats; Big Clubs attract big crowds, right? The answer to this question seems to be an emphatic yes. Match day earnings are a vital revenue stream for the modern-day club, which is why Spurs and West Ham are fighting like drunks at closing time for the Olympic Stadium. If there's one thing that Newcastle have got right it's extending St James' Park. This means the club is regularly near the top of the attendance league - they were second behind Manchester United until Arsenal opened the Emirates Stadium in 2008. Even when they got relegated in 2009 they had the third highest average attendance (48,750 - which was still short of capacity) and made it into the top 20 of the 2010 Deloitte Money League with the tenth highest match-day revenue (£29m) - despite also being the only club on the list not to feature in European competition that season. By contrast in the same season Everton finished fifth and lost in the FA Cup final, but could only attract an average of 35,710 punters and didn't make the money list. The club lacks a modern stadium, having had several planning applications turned down. This in turn makes them an unattractive proposition to potential buyers, which in turn seriously curtails David Moyes' ability to move the club onto the next level - the top four and Champions League riches. The same problem also impedes their city rivals Liverpool. A huge club with a proud history and a strong bond between the club and its supporters. Yet their progress has also been thwarted by the fact they have not been able to bring their stadium plans to fruition. Again, to put this into perspective in the 2008/09 season Liverpool came second and reached the Champions League quarter finals but, their match day revenue (£42.5m) was less than half of Manchester United's (£108.8m) and was just £13.5m more than Newcastle's Money Clearly, and perhaps a little depressingly, this all seems to lead to money. There is some debate as to whether the amount a club spends on wages or transfers is a better predictor of success but either way it's clear that while past glory is undeniably important, the true barometer of a big club is current success and that is to a large extent determined by the ability to spend. Leeds were able to win the title in 1992 just two seasons after gaining promotion, while the Premier League's first season saw Aston Villa, Norwich, Blackburn and QPR in the top five. It would be a dream come true for fans of those clubs to see a repeat, yet even Villa with considerable recent investment haven't managed to break into the top five since 1993. It is also significant that the two most consistently successful Premier League teams - Manchester United and Arsenal - have been the most stable and well-managed on and off the pitch. Liverpool are where they are because of a tortuous ownership struggle over recent years and Chelsea's success has come despite - not because of - the way they are run off the pitch. (Even Manchester United may find themselves unable to compete at the same with their spending power curtailed by massive interest repayments.) There are several teams that could reasonably lay claim to being a big club, or at least have the potential to be; the traditional Big Four - Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea - plus Tottenham, Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle, Manchester City, Sunderland and Leeds all fit bill. They have history and, crucially, a large fan base yet it’s a damning indictment that despite the advantages they have over 'smaller' clubs, four of them (Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds and Manchester City) have been relegated since the start of the Premiership and another two (Everton and Aston Villa) have beaten the drop by just one place. With their stadium in place and their ability to generate revenue, perhaps Newcastle fans are right to be annoyed when people tell them they aren't a Big Club. Now, if they could just start acting like one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasepud 59 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Spurs? Villa? Everton? fuck off cunts © Stevie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 If someone said what's the biggest club in Newcastle, you'd have to say Westerhope Excelsior based on the fact it has the most members. The size of the club is the size of its' membership. It's more complex than that in football, but on that basis that the size of a club is the size of its' support then Newcastle are the 4th biggest club in the country, after Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. Me personally though I don't class us as "a big club" in the quagmire definition of what one is, there are three big clubs in Britain - Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea, the rest are also rans and I really can't see any way it'll ever change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Spurs? Villa? Everton? Leeds? Man City? fuck off cunts © Stevie FYP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_NUFC 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Its all down to definition, and when people talk about big clubs they often have different definitions in their mind, which leads to arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10978 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 Its all down to definition, and when people talk about big clubs they often have different definitions in their mind, which leads to arguments. Didn't read the post then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4858 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 An interesting read but having "big club" status is more important to some fans than others. Most of football considered us a laughing stock at the end of Freddys reign and a circus under Ashley. When a team is playing well and finishing regularly in the top 6, those fans who need it can enjoy being a big club. Until then, really its a silly argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Its all down to definition, and when people talk about big clubs they often have different definitions in their mind, which leads to arguments. Exactly, and people will use different facets of their club to support an argument that they are a big. If you're an Everton fan arguing about them being a big club, they'll point to the fact they've got 9 league titles which defines them as big as they can't mention fanbase, infrastructure, public perception etc... If you're a Newcastle fan you could say we have a much bigger fanbase than all bar three clubs, fantastic stadium, massive turnover compared to Everton/Villa type clubs, because we can't mention trophies over the last 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14021 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 At the end of the day Newcastle has certain attributes that a lot of clubs can't buy - like Man City or Sunderland for instance. The match day experience is definitely something special and it's something that's been driven into the community & culture & the very stone in the buildings. This is tangible when you are in the city . Special? Call it what you want but I would prefer Newcastle to the experience of supporting other clubs. Whether our collective pros lead to us being a big club I don't know but I do know that a large portion of our fan base are comfortable enough to rarely entertain the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Yes on identity, no on trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4858 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10978 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 I definitely think the matchday is helped by having the stadium slap bang in the centre of the city as well. I'd be curious to experience an "away day" at Newcastle. If you've never been before and you're coming up on the train its got to get you excited seeing the ground on the top of the hill, even if you're just getting wrapped up in the anticipation of the match and not impressed with the sight itself. Then walking through a one club city famous for it's night life. Now, compare that to Middlesbrough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I definitely think the matchday is helped by having the stadium slap bang in the centre of the city as well. I'd be curious to experience an "away day" at Newcastle. If you've never been before and you're coming up on the train its got to get you excited seeing the ground on the top of the hill, even if you're just getting wrapped up in the anticipation of the match and not impressed with the sight itself. Then walking through a one club city famous for it's night life. Now, compare that to Middlesbrough... I'd say it would easily be the best away day in the country for away fans. Level 7 isn't a bad view, the stadium is breath taking if you haven't been before, right in the city centre, airport 20 mins away, trains 15 mins walk, night out in the toon, not being biased but it has to be THE away, look at when we were in the CCC every other team brung 3,000 fans here, the likes of Peterborough and Bristol City would never ever do that at Leeds, cos it's not as interesting an away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Stadiums mean fuck all to me. I'd swop the current ground for the old one in a heartbeat if it meant silverware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Stadiums mean fuck all to me. I'd swop the current ground for the old one in a heartbeat if it meant silverware. Well you've got 1991/1992 to look back on fondly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Not sure what you mean. What I mean is that I'd rather have people say you might win trophies but you have a shite stadium. I could live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Not sure what you mean. What I mean is that I'd rather have people say you might win trophies but you have a shite stadium. I could live with that. Guessing he means 1992/93 tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinofbeans 91 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 on fanbase and appeal. yes. on anything else. maybe. the team is good enough for the premier league. it needs to improve. fatgamblingcunt needs to sort out a few more bargains like ben arfa and tiote, then we can establish ourselves. until re-established we are not big or great, merely a 2nd/3rd tier club. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10978 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 Stadiums mean fuck all to me. I'd swop the current ground for the old one in a heartbeat if it meant silverware. Name a club that's made that specific trade off? A club who were without silverware, then changed grounds on the understanding that would win them a trophy. It's just an odd statement is all. Oh and fwiw, I think we support NUFC for the package, not the chance of winning silverware. Kids growing up in Derby who fall in love with football and go to the game every chance they get aren't doing it because Pride Park is a 33k stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I find it rather odd that you don't understand the point I'm making. I aslo find it odd that you think that "we" aren't that bothered about winning silverware and are more interested in some package deal whatever that might mean. I'm not in that "we". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Not sure what you mean. What I mean is that I'd rather have people say you might win trophies but you have a shite stadium. I could live with that. Guessing he means 1992/93 tbh Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Why is he a Leeds fan like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Why is he a Leeds fan like? Course he is. He has trouble admitting it though. Edited January 30, 2011 by You FCB Get Out Of Our Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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