Whats you definition of class?

[Renton 22003]

You can't stop people being wankers but you can stop them from being rewarded for it. My view is that if you define or try to define a society as a meritiocracy then measures to at least try and level the playing field are reasonable.

 

Of course that playing field has other factors like private education but I'd address that as well.

 

I wouldn't take shit food off someone in your example but I'd consider discouraging its sale - I'm all for personal freedom up to a point but I think what that point is is debateable.

 

Agree fully with this. Obviously the extent the state 'interferes' with an individual's rights is massively complex though. I've always though the Western European social democracies have been the closest to getting the right balance though. This includes the UK.

I don't think you be wrong with a political philosophy as it's value based, but I will say I find your views scary.

 

amazing how easily you will see the thin end of the wedge with conservative issues, but not worry about them on your end.

 

I don't think you can separate being a wanker and profiting from it, where legislation is concerned. you are stopping them by force, how can you argue with that?

 

and there's no reason to put state interference in quotes, it's a reality, and it's not that complex.

 

I wasn't suggesting stopping people doing legal things which are damaging to themselves or others by force, I was agreeing with NJS about the government using incentives and disincentives. A classic example is the measures that have been used to reduce smoking and passive smoking. And I'd have to disagree and say it is an enormously complex subject, and the older I get, and the more I learn, the more complex it gets.

[Monkeys Fist 43079]

Definition of Middle Class = the last two pages of this thread

[Guest alex]

Definition of Middle Class = the last two pages of this thread

Good debate though.

[adios 717]

any government interference is ultimately by force, what would happen if you were to ignore all legislation on the smoking ban and subsequent warnings?

[NJS 4411]

NJS....not being at all funny like but I've always noticed a contradiction between your job and your politics. Isn't your job entirely about the acquisition of wealth in the pure sense? Money lending iirc?

 

I confess it's intrigued me for a while now.

 

I think I've said a couple of times that I recognise my personal "hypocrisy" - before working in banking, I worked in the IFA industry which I have even more contempt for. I don't really feel too guilty about it - I like having a decent lifestyle too much.

 

Alex is also right - I do hate everybody, but that's not job related - and also I guess in contrast to being a socialist but I'd argue that's more about people as a whole rather than individuals.

[adios 717]

Definition of Middle Class = the last two pages of this thread

especially if we're sat at a work computer getting paid to do it

[manc-mag 1]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

Is the fairest but least 'revenue generating' option for the goverrnment. Completely agree with the priniciple though.

 

Redistribution of income relies on a careful balance between thresholds and population sizes around those thresholds. Also, some people might work very hard to end up with 2m quid but if 50% of their effort is taxed at 90%, they might not make the effort. Or their incentive structure changes, which has an impact on the economy, taxes and therefore social spending.

yep, and people who make these arguments tend not to understand the dynamic nature of wealth creation and think any talk like this is conspiratorial (not that that doesn't also exist).

 

I'm socialist like, but I have no problem seeing JawD's point of view, particularly given how he generates his money as a business owner. On a 'but for' test, but for him setting up on his own and taking risks with his families income/security, there'd be fewer jobs about as he employs people. But for him (and his family) those jobs wouldn't have happened. I think that's a fundemnetally different mindset to someone who's salaried, doing a job in relative security in an existing organisation that someone else would be doing if they weren't. Ie but for them it would be someone else. And I say that as someone falling into the latter category. I've a lot of respect for someone in JawD's position in other words.

 

At the same time I err more towards Renton's personal views about inheritance (who wouldn't be more proud of kids who were independent as opposed to reliant?), but I have a problem with enforcing that model on everyone.

 

Ewerk's proposal is the best in theory, but Chez is no doubt right about the practical shortcomings.

 

I just don't know if the Toontastic General Chat thinktank can solve this one.

[ChezGiven 0]

Definition of Middle Class = the last two pages of this thread

especially if we're sat at a work computer getting paid to do it

[Monkeys Fist 43079]

Definition of Middle Class = the last two pages of this thread

especially if we're sat at a work computer getting paid to do it

[adios 717]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

Is the fairest but least 'revenue generating' option for the goverrnment. Completely agree with the priniciple though.

 

Redistribution of income relies on a careful balance between thresholds and population sizes around those thresholds. Also, some people might work very hard to end up with 2m quid but if 50% of their effort is taxed at 90%, they might not make the effort. Or their incentive structure changes, which has an impact on the economy, taxes and therefore social spending.

yep, and people who make these arguments tend not to understand the dynamic nature of wealth creation and think any talk like this is conspiratorial (not that that doesn't also exist).

 

I'm socialist like, but I have no problem seeing JawD's point of view, particularly given how he generates his money as a business owner. On a 'but for' test, but for him setting up on his own and taking risks with his families income/security, there'd be fewer jobs about as he employs people. But for him (and his family) those jobs wouldn't have happened. I think that's a fundemnetally different mindset to someone who's salaried, doing a job in relative security in an existing organisation that someone else would be doing if they weren't. Ie but for them it would be someone else. And I say that as someone falling into the latter category. I've a lot of respect for someone in JawD's position in other words.

 

At the same time I err more towards Renton's personal views about inheritance (who wouldn't be more proud of kids who were independent as opposed to reliant?), but I have a problem with enforcing that model on everyone.

 

Ewerk's proposal is the best in theory, but Chez is no doubt right about the practical shortcomings.

 

I just don't know if the Toontastic General Chat thinktank can solve this one.

that's no surprise, and people don't need to justify themselves, I was more pointing out that most of the people flying the flag for these policies have fuck all idea about the practicalities of them. and it's not like that's limited to one side, most of us follow politics like football, all emotional decisions and no logic.

[adios 717]

I just don't know if the Toontastic General Chat thinktank can solve this one.

on that note, I'm off to watch jersey shore!

[manc-mag 1]

NJS....not being at all funny like but I've always noticed a contradiction between your job and your politics. Isn't your job entirely about the acquisition of wealth in the pure sense? Money lending iirc?

 

I confess it's intrigued me for a while now.

 

I think I've said a couple of times that I recognise my personal "hypocrisy" - before working in banking, I worked in the IFA industry which I have even more contempt for. I don't really feel too guilty about it - I like having a decent lifestyle too much.

 

Alex is also right - I do hate everybody, but that's not job related - and also I guess in contrast to being a socialist but I'd argue that's more about people as a whole rather than individuals.

 

Fair enough tbh. And as you rightly allude, you've always been completely up front about the 'split personality', it's certainly not like you try and pass yourself off as holier than thou or owt.

[Holden McGroin 6785]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

[Renton 22003]

any government interference is ultimately by force, what would happen if you were to ignore all legislation on the smoking ban and subsequent warnings?

 

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, the government directly or indirectly 'force' people into certain behaviours. What's wrong with that? What's the alternative, anarchy? I thought that went out after the 70s.

[Park Life 71]

Actually it's not a contradiction as such, forgive me, the two just seem markedly out of kilter.

 

Look at his use of language!!!

 

Manc is Kclass.

[Renton 22003]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

 

I don't really have one, but the southern chavs you see on the likes of that documentary don't really seem like Newcastle charvers, Liverpool scallies, or Glasgow neds. I get the impression chavs can be quite wealthy, for instance buying designer clothes, but have no class. Isn't Julie Burchill a self-confessed chav? Whereas here, being a charver is more than just having a bad fashion sense and mindset, its about being part of an underclass. Could be wrong like.

[JawD 99]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

 

See I wouldnt object to increasing the % of tax at higher levels. Right now its something like £325K. I also havent taken anything from my parents (well, since I left home that is!) and everything I have I've worked for. But, surely it's just natural for every parent to want to ensure their children, and their children etc have the best possible lives they can. It's natural to want to provide for them (maybe in the hope that when Im an old gibbering wreck they will look me somewhat).

 

I know it's easy to look at someone who has had a £1M estate handed to them and say they dont deserve it etc. But at some point it's likely their parents worked their bollocks of so they could be in that position. Not always, I know.

 

I also would have more respect for someone who had at least worked and then came into the money.

 

I know with my kids, while I want to provide for them and hope to build up a "nest egg" to help them with education and maybe housing, I would certainly want them to stand on their own feet and make their own living just as I did.

[Park Life 71]

Am as left wing as they come but I think inheritance tax should be kept in check.

[manc-mag 1]

Actually it's not a contradiction as such, forgive me, the two just seem markedly out of kilter.

 

Look at his use of language!!!

 

Manc is Kclass.

 

 

The horribly forensic scrutiny of language that comes with a legal education I'm afraid. Oh to have kept up my English Lit studies instead.

[NJS 4411]

See I wouldnt object to increasing the % of tax at higher levels. Right now its something like £325K. I also havent taken anything from my parents (well, since I left home that is!) and everything I have I've worked for. But, surely it's just natural for every parent to want to ensure their children, and their children etc have the best possible lives they can. It's natural to want to provide for them (maybe in the hope that when Im an old gibbering wreck they will look me somewhat).

 

I do respect that very human notion - I think as I said earlier the debate has shifted in the last couple of decades as the issue has affected more people (whose wealth is mainly property inflation based).

 

Maybe its a question of number of generations = the true upper class have been passing it on for centuries with probably dubious initial acquistion so I'd have less problem "having a go" at them rather than someone from a council house whose made it good leaving it all to his kids.

[JawD 99]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

 

I don't really have one, but the southern chavs you see on the likes of that documentary don't really seem like Newcastle charvers, Liverpool scallies, or Glasgow neds. I get the impression chavs can be quite wealthy, for instance buying designer clothes, but have no class. Isn't Julie Burchill a self-confessed chav? Whereas here, being a charver is more than just having a bad fashion sense and mindset, its about being part of an underclass. Could be wrong like.

 

My impression of a Charver is the stereotypical Elswick mob hanging around talking out of their nose, listening to happy house & calling each other a radgie. They'll drink WKD or cans of lager on street corners and get fog on from their mates 20 a day habit of Regal. They'll hate the police though won't really know why and have fun throwing their empty bottles at passing fire vehicles. Their mastiff dog will be called Cowie and their Mothers will be about 13-15 years older than them.

 

They will have gold hanging from every limb having not realised how much they could make weighing it in, they will walk like they have displaced hips and their nasal tone will want to make you put your foot through their face. They have the inability to be alone, much like a pack of dogs. Also like a pack of dogs they will have no issue in shitting on their own doorstep, whatever form that takes.

 

They all sign on but think its shocking that they only get however much they do as it barely covers the cost of their regular "ounce".

[SloopJohn 0]

Am as left wing as they come but I think inheritance tax should be kept in check.

 

right with you there parky

[manc-mag 1]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

 

I don't really have one, but the southern chavs you see on the likes of that documentary don't really seem like Newcastle charvers, Liverpool scallies, or Glasgow neds. I get the impression chavs can be quite wealthy, for instance buying designer clothes, but have no class. Isn't Julie Burchill a self-confessed chav? Whereas here, being a charver is more than just having a bad fashion sense and mindset, its about being part of an underclass. Could be wrong like.

 

My impression of a Charver is the stereotypical Elswick mob hanging around talking out of their nose, listening to happy house & calling each other a radgie. They'll drink WKD or cans of lager on street corners and get fog on from their mates 20 a day habit of Regal. They'll hate the police though won't really know why and have fun throwing their empty bottles at passing fire vehicles. Their mastiff dog will be called Cowie and their Mothers will be about 13-15 years older than them.

 

They will have gold hanging from every limb having not realised how much they could make weighing it in, they will walk like they have displaced hips and their nasal tone will want to make you put your foot through their face. They have the inability to be alone, much like a pack of dogs. Also like a pack of dogs they will have no issue in shitting on their own doorstep, whatever form that takes.

 

They all sign on but think its shocking that they only get however much they do as it barely covers the cost of their regular "ounce".

 

 

You could have at least given it some thought before you answered.

[Renton 22003]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

 

I don't really have one, but the southern chavs you see on the likes of that documentary don't really seem like Newcastle charvers, Liverpool scallies, or Glasgow neds. I get the impression chavs can be quite wealthy, for instance buying designer clothes, but have no class. Isn't Julie Burchill a self-confessed chav? Whereas here, being a charver is more than just having a bad fashion sense and mindset, its about being part of an underclass. Could be wrong like.

 

My impression of a Charver is the stereotypical Elswick mob hanging around talking out of their nose, listening to happy house & calling each other a radgie. They'll drink WKD or cans of lager on street corners and get fog on from their mates 20 a day habit of Regal. They'll hate the police though won't really know why and have fun throwing their empty bottles at passing fire vehicles. Their mastiff dog will be called Cowie and their Mothers will be about 13-15 years older than them.

 

They will have gold hanging from every limb having not realised how much they could make weighing it in, they will walk like they have displaced hips and their nasal tone will want to make you put your foot through their face. They have the inability to be alone, much like a pack of dogs. Also like a pack of dogs they will have no issue in shitting on their own doorstep, whatever form that takes.

 

They all sign on but think its shocking that they only get however much they do as it barely covers the cost of their regular "ounce".

 

That's the badger.

[Monkeys Fist 43079]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

 

I was just under the impression chavs were from down south and charvers were from Newcastle. Whats your definition?

 

I don't really have one, but the southern chavs you see on the likes of that documentary don't really seem like Newcastle charvers, Liverpool scallies, or Glasgow neds. I get the impression chavs can be quite wealthy, for instance buying designer clothes, but have no class. Isn't Julie Burchill a self-confessed chav? Whereas here, being a charver is more than just having a bad fashion sense and mindset, its about being part of an underclass. Could be wrong like.

 

My impression of a Charver is the stereotypical Elswick mob hanging around talking out of their nose, listening to happy house & calling each other a radgie. They'll drink WKD or cans of lager on street corners and get fog on from their mates 20 a day habit of Regal. They'll hate the police though won't really know why and have fun throwing their empty bottles at passing fire vehicles. Their mastiff dog will be called Cowie and their Mothers will be about 13-15 years older than them.

 

They will have gold hanging from every limb having not realised how much they could make weighing it in, they will walk like they have displaced hips and their nasal tone will want to make you put your foot through their face. They have the inability to be alone, much like a pack of dogs. Also like a pack of dogs they will have no issue in shitting on their own doorstep, whatever form that takes.

 

They all sign on but think its shocking that they only get however much they do as it barely covers the cost of their regular "ounce".

 

That's the badger.

Should send that to the O.E.D. for inclusion next year