Whats you definition of class?

[adios 717]

"but I don't work" OWNED!

[Renton 20484]

Class has no relation to money. It all has to do with upbringing.

 

There's some relationship between income and class obviously, but this is largely true. I was born into a middle class family but we were much poorer than other families around us who had a more working class background.

 

Class snobbery is stupid anyway. You have no more choice into which class you're born than you do what colour or religion you're born into. Fwiw there seems to be a lot of inverse snobbery on this board. There used to be a canny poster on here called Northern Soul who was a bit of a Billy Bragg type. Canny poster but he had an almost psychological hatred of the middle classes, I could never get my head round it. On the other hand, got to admit I don't respect the true upper classes, the Landed Gentry. We should put up inheritance tax to 90% to eliminate these parasites. Everyone should get, or at least have the potential to get, what they work for. I believe in meritocracy.

 

I agree that class snobbery is stupid. Also that its not just about wealth. But, I don't agree with a hike in inheritance tax. I'm working my bollocks off right now and doing ok. But, why do you think I'm so keen to work hard?

 

Fair enough, you've got a point, but the main reason we still have a class divide in this country (and therefore a divided country) is because of the privilege that inherited wealth brings. I think a parents role is to bring up their kids properly and provide with everything they need for them to lead a productive life, not for them to die and leave their kids shit loads of money with no appreciation of what it means to work for it. I'm proud that as an adult I've never taken anything from my parents and I don't want to when they're dead either. I'd rather they spent their money on themselves while they're here. Maybe a compromise is in order.

[Renton 20484]

Why do all chavs (charvers!) think they aren't actually chavs ?

 

Are chavs and charvers really the same thing? They have different connotations to me.

[adios 717]

Class has no relation to money. It all has to do with upbringing.

 

There's some relationship between income and class obviously, but this is largely true. I was born into a middle class family but we were much poorer than other families around us who had a more working class background.

 

Class snobbery is stupid anyway. You have no more choice into which class you're born than you do what colour or religion you're born into. Fwiw there seems to be a lot of inverse snobbery on this board. There used to be a canny poster on here called Northern Soul who was a bit of a Billy Bragg type. Canny poster but he had an almost psychological hatred of the middle classes, I could never get my head round it. On the other hand, got to admit I don't respect the true upper classes, the Landed Gentry. We should put up inheritance tax to 90% to eliminate these parasites. Everyone should get, or at least have the potential to get, what they work for. I believe in meritocracy.

 

I agree that class snobbery is stupid. Also that its not just about wealth. But, I don't agree with a hike in inheritance tax. I'm working my bollocks off right now and doing ok. But, why do you think I'm so keen to work hard?

 

Fair enough, you've got a point, but the main reason we still have a class divide in this country (and therefore a divided country) is because of the privilege that inherited wealth brings. I think a parents role is to bring up their kids properly and provide with everything they need for them to lead a productive life, not for them to die and leave their kids shit loads of money with no appreciation of what it means to work for it. I'm proud that as an adult I've never taken anything from my parents and I don't want to when they're dead either. I'd rather they spent their money on themselves while they're here. Maybe a compromise is in order.

that's a commendable attitude, but what right do we have to decide what they decide to do with their cash?

[Renton 20484]

Class has no relation to money. It all has to do with upbringing.

 

There's some relationship between income and class obviously, but this is largely true. I was born into a middle class family but we were much poorer than other families around us who had a more working class background.

 

Class snobbery is stupid anyway. You have no more choice into which class you're born than you do what colour or religion you're born into. Fwiw there seems to be a lot of inverse snobbery on this board. There used to be a canny poster on here called Northern Soul who was a bit of a Billy Bragg type. Canny poster but he had an almost psychological hatred of the middle classes, I could never get my head round it. On the other hand, got to admit I don't respect the true upper classes, the Landed Gentry. We should put up inheritance tax to 90% to eliminate these parasites. Everyone should get, or at least have the potential to get, what they work for. I believe in meritocracy.

 

I agree that class snobbery is stupid. Also that its not just about wealth. But, I don't agree with a hike in inheritance tax. I'm working my bollocks off right now and doing ok. But, why do you think I'm so keen to work hard?

 

Fair enough, you've got a point, but the main reason we still have a class divide in this country (and therefore a divided country) is because of the privilege that inherited wealth brings. I think a parents role is to bring up their kids properly and provide with everything they need for them to lead a productive life, not for them to die and leave their kids shit loads of money with no appreciation of what it means to work for it. I'm proud that as an adult I've never taken anything from my parents and I don't want to when they're dead either. I'd rather they spent their money on themselves while they're here. Maybe a compromise is in order.

that's a commendable attitude, but what right do we have to decide what they decide to do with their cash?

 

The Government we elect have the right. Before the introduction of inheritance tax in the UK, the Landed Gentry literally lived like kings, ruling over the working classes without contributing anything significant to society. This happened after each generation, endlessly, and there was little or no social mobility. I'd like inheritance tax to be increased as I think it would lead to a more responsible and meritocratic society, JawD doesn't, which is fair enough. Up to the electorate to decide then.

[NJS 4267]

The Government we elect have the right. Before the introduction of inheritance tax in the UK, the Landed Gentry literally lived like kings, ruling over the working classes without contributing anything significant to society. This happened after each generation, endlessly, and there was little or no social mobility. I'd like inheritance tax to be increased as I think it would lead to a more responsible and meritocratic society, JawD doesn't, which is fair enough. Up to the electorate to decide then.

 

The problem now is that because of property prices, that passed on wealth and priviledge (and sense of entitlement) has been extended to a lot more people. In principle the fact that more people have "wealth" is fine, but what that does for equality of opportunity is a very high price imo.

[ewerk 29547]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

[adios 717]

The Government we elect have the right.

as they do to tell us what we can eat, drink, play and smoke.

 

can't get my head around that philosophy tbh

 

and do we bollocks choose our government. opt for 2 sides of the same coin and you'll take what you're given and be happy with!

[Guest alex]

 

 

Brilliant literal contradiction right at the end which just clearly hasn't occured to Prezza.

I saw that documentary. :icon_lol:

[NJS 4267]

The Government we elect have the right.

as they do to tell us what we can eat, drink, play and smoke.

 

can't get my head around that philosophy tbh

 

and do we bollocks choose our government. opt for 2 sides of the same coin and you'll take what you're given and be happy with!

 

It's a concept of shared responsibilities - if you want a society with an ifrastructure you benefit from, then you have to have some kind of organisation which includes taxation and lifestyle guidance - what you eat/drink/smoke affects the NHS which is shared.

 

You could only take an opt out so far - if you completely funded your own healthcare, you'd still need things like transport systems and emergency systems for example.

[adios 717]

don't get me wrong, I'm all for progressive taxation and social programs, for exactly the reason of benefiting society as a unit, but modern liberals are a hilarious contradiction, the word has lost all meaning

[NJS 4267]

don't get me wrong, I'm all for progressive taxation and social programs, for exactly the reason of benefiting society as a unit, but modern liberals are a hilarious contradiction, the word has lost all meaning

 

I'm not in favour of high taxation for the sake of it - that's why I think inheritance is an opportunity to introduce a moral aspect so that money you "earn" on your own merits is treated with more "respect" than that which is unearned.

 

Of course I'd put a lot more effort into reducing tax avoidance.evasion as well and abolish all fiddles.

 

Also as I've said before I don't object to people looking after their kids per se but the way some people almost rely/look forward to their parents death from a monetary view is horrible.

[adios 717]

don't get me wrong, I'm all for progressive taxation and social programs, for exactly the reason of benefiting society as a unit, but modern liberals are a hilarious contradiction, the word has lost all meaning

 

I'm not in favour of high taxation for the sake of it - that's why I think inheritance is an opportunity to introduce a moral aspect so that money you "earn" on your own merits is treated with more "respect" than that which is unearned.

 

Of course I'd put a lot more effort into reducing tax avoidance.evasion as well and abolish all fiddles.

 

Also as I've said before I don't object to people looking after their kids per se but the way some people almost rely/look forward to their parents death from a monetary view is horrible.

none of our business though, surely? legislating morality where it infringes on the lives of others' is one thing, but now you're talking about legislating against people being wankers? seriously?

 

this is like the difference between prosecuting for fraud and for lying. how far away is borstal for saying "the dog ate my homework?"

 

do either of you honestly believe it's ok for us to indirectly via our government wander over to someone in mcdonald's and say 'give me that hamburger you fat fuck, or I will take it off you (by force if necessary)?'

[NJS 4267]

You can't stop people being wankers but you can stop them from being rewarded for it. My view is that if you define or try to define a society as a meritiocracy then measures to at least try and level the playing field are reasonable.

 

Of course that playing field has other factors like private education but I'd address that as well.

 

I wouldn't take shit food off someone in your example but I'd consider discouraging its sale - I'm all for personal freedom up to a point but I think what that point is is debateable.

[manc-mag 1]

NJS....not being at all funny like but I've always noticed a contradiction between your job and your politics. Isn't your job entirely about the acquisition of wealth in the pure sense? Money lending iirc?

 

I confess it's intrigued me for a while now.

[Renton 20484]

You can't stop people being wankers but you can stop them from being rewarded for it. My view is that if you define or try to define a society as a meritiocracy then measures to at least try and level the playing field are reasonable.

 

Of course that playing field has other factors like private education but I'd address that as well.

 

I wouldn't take shit food off someone in your example but I'd consider discouraging its sale - I'm all for personal freedom up to a point but I think what that point is is debateable.

 

Agree fully with this. Obviously the extent the state 'interferes' with an individual's rights is massively complex though. I've always though the Western European social democracies have been the closest to getting the right balance though. This includes the UK.

[manc-mag 1]

Actually it's not a contradiction as such, forgive me, the two just seem markedly out of kilter.

[Renton 20484]

NJS....not being at all funny like but I've always noticed a contradiction between your job and your politics. Isn't your job entirely about the acquisition of wealth in the pure sense? Money lending iirc?

 

I confess it's intrigued me for a while now.

 

He's decompartmentalised himself.

 

Money lender though, are you saying he's Jewish?

Edited January 7, 2011 by Renton

[manc-mag 1]

No, it wasn't a euphemism. Although he could be for all it matters to me. Financial services then. Ie money lending.

[ewerk 29547]

NJS....not being at all funny like but I've always noticed a contradiction between your job and your politics. Isn't your job entirely about the acquisition of wealth in the pure sense? Money lending iirc?

 

I confess it's intrigued me for a while now.

 

And he appears to hate himself for it.

[Guest alex]

Tbf, I get the impression he hates everyone else as well

[ChezGiven 0]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

Is the fairest but least 'revenue generating' option for the goverrnment. Completely agree with the priniciple though.

 

Redistribution of income relies on a careful balance between thresholds and population sizes around those thresholds. Also, some people might work very hard to end up with 2m quid but if 50% of their effort is taxed at 90%, they might not make the effort. Or their incentive structure changes, which has an impact on the economy, taxes and therefore social spending.

[ChezGiven 0]

NJS oils the greasy pole for a living.

 

Metaphorically of course.

[adios 717]

You can't stop people being wankers but you can stop them from being rewarded for it. My view is that if you define or try to define a society as a meritiocracy then measures to at least try and level the playing field are reasonable.

 

Of course that playing field has other factors like private education but I'd address that as well.

 

I wouldn't take shit food off someone in your example but I'd consider discouraging its sale - I'm all for personal freedom up to a point but I think what that point is is debateable.

 

Agree fully with this. Obviously the extent the state 'interferes' with an individual's rights is massively complex though. I've always though the Western European social democracies have been the closest to getting the right balance though. This includes the UK.

I don't think you be wrong with a political philosophy as it's value based, but I will say I find your views scary.

 

amazing how easily you will see the thin end of the wedge with conservative issues, but not worry about them on your end.

 

I don't think you can separate being a wanker and profiting from it, where legislation is concerned. you are stopping them by force, how can you argue with that?

 

and there's no reason to put state interference in quotes, it's a reality, and it's not that complex.

[adios 717]

Raise the level of inheritance tax to £1million, then tax everything after that at 90%

Is the fairest but least 'revenue generating' option for the goverrnment. Completely agree with the priniciple though.

 

Redistribution of income relies on a careful balance between thresholds and population sizes around those thresholds. Also, some people might work very hard to end up with 2m quid but if 50% of their effort is taxed at 90%, they might not make the effort. Or their incentive structure changes, which has an impact on the economy, taxes and therefore social spending.

yep, and people who make these arguments tend not to understand the dynamic nature of wealth creation and think any talk like this is conspiratorial (not that that doesn't also exist).