Alan Pardew - Poltroon sacked by a forrin team

[sniffer 0]

There's a touch of the Walter Mitty about Pardew. imo he has no involvement in transfers; the reason he hasn't picked a captain is that he has no idea who will be here at the start of the season, other than the new signings. That won't stop him wanting to sound like he's in charge of course.

 

Are there many managers who have much more control?

 

I doubt there are many premiership managers with less say. imo we have a contintental system, which was the original idea when Ashely came on board, where the manager coaches/picks the team and the transfers/infrastructure issues are handled by a director of football. Our director of football used to be Wise and is now Derek Llambias.

 

In reality I expect Pardew has an input on what's needed but not much more than that. I expect Graham Carr has a major say but I suspect it's the brains trust of Llambias and Ashley that's shaping the squad and our transfer policy. This is all purely conjecture on my part of course but I just get the feeling about Pardew that he's a bullshitter. He always seems to be catching up on the news - Carroll, Barton, Enrique, Nolan etc - as though he's had no real involvement in decisions.

Nailed by Kitman.

Thought this when he jumped into Hughton's grave, think it now, seen nothing to make me think otherwise.

 

Re. the continental system , I agree Kitman, the truly worrying thing is that it does appear that the Toxic Twins are acting DOF's.

My blood runs cold.

 

Agree almost entirely with you both but for me Graham Carr is now the DoF....in charge of recruitment, which was I think Dennis Wise's title, or at least part of it.

 

Carr is now the most important figure on the football side of the club. He seems to have a good eye for a player, and he'll scout them and perhaps even make the "official" first move for a player, probably by having a word with the player's agent. If the response is positive, I imagine lambchop then tries to sort a deal with the player's club. Whether Pardew has issued a "I want a player for this posistion or who can do this or that for the team" list is pretty much unknowable. I tend to agree though Pardew seems to be dealing with the hand he is being dealt and being a diplomat in return for a shot at the biggest job of his career. Think back to his press conference when he joined to see how much support he enjoys from the upper echelons of the club, even at the start of his tenure here. A puppet in all but name.

 

The system works well on the continent in certain cases, it is the system thet made Lyon go from a nothing 2nd division club in 1989 to being one of the top sides in Europe for almost a decade,from a relatively "poor" league too. And it is undoubtedly the case that rich owners want more control over expenditure. Steve Kean is in a similar positon if you ask me, but Steve Bruce would walk if he couldnt choose his own players and it undoutedly contributed to Alex McLeish leaving Birmingham. I doubt if Grant had much say in who came in last January at West Ham, according to the non-bearded dildo seller's comments on relegation anyway.At West Ham and Blackburn it would appear that the board go straight to the agents and say "who can you get me?" and look at where West Ham ended up and listen to Blackburn's fans fears for the coming season.

 

It appears to be a road we may be heading down too....the only possible saving grace is Graham Carr is a "football man" (so was Kevin Keen at West Ham mind) but it doesn't alter the fact that if we're bottom of the league at xmas Pardew will in all likelyhood be given his cards and he'll not have had much of a say in who is in the team he's picking each week. But he's made his own bed so I guess he and us will all have to fuckin lie in it

 

Refresh my memory. Who has Carr brought in that warrants this?

[Tom 14011]

Tiote & Ben Arfa for a start. Marveaux & Cabaye we'll wait and see...

[Kitman 2204]

The F in DoF stand for Football, and Wise went ages ago. Llambias only cares about the money. While this may seem like splitting hair to most people, as the result is the same (the manager doesn't have total control). There is actually a massive difference. A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value.

 

Paddocklad is suggesting that Carr is acting as a sort of DoF, see above. I don't disagree with your analysis of Llambias, although I bet he enjoys calling the shots. The question is whether Pardew has much involvement in transfers in and out; as time wears on I've become more convinced he doesn't play any significant part in either, although I expect his opinion would be canvassed at some point especially regarding incomings and squad needs.

 

It's inconceivable that he'd be totally in the dark but the Carroll episode suggests he knew fuck all about his transfer out, similarly he said consistently he'd like to keep Nolan, only to see him sold. He seems to be up to speed with Enrique and Barton's situtationa but that's possibly because nothing has happened yet. I suspect he's loosely kept in the loop from time to time but has no say in outgoings and probably very little on incomings. That's what the current situation suggests to me anyway based on his public comments vs what actually happens.

 

Regarding his stubborness, it depends on whether you think he signed up to this way of doing things when he took on the job. If he did, he's got nothing to be stubborn about, imo. He'll be presented with the final squad on 31 Aug and he'll get on with his job in the meantime.

[StevieRoss 0]

"A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value."

 

A valid point. Llambias will have a brief to minimize costs and make money where he can while keeping the team moderately competitive in the PL. (It amazes me btw that anybody believed that the Carroll money would really be spent on transfer fees) As I've said before, Pardew is the plausible, puppet-like figure who is charged with spouting the positive football spin, intended to satisfy the fans. It obviously works to some degree, he has people like Christmas Tree hoodwinked it appears....

 

This is a cynical regime predicated on Ashley's philosophy of treating Newcastle fans in the same way he has treated his customers, a "one born every minute" sort of contempt.

[Phil 6]

The F in DoF stand for Football, and Wise went ages ago. Llambias only cares about the money. While this may seem like splitting hair to most people, as the result is the same (the manager doesn't have total control). There is actually a massive difference. A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value.

 

Paddocklad is suggesting that Carr is acting as a sort of DoF, see above. I don't disagree with your analysis of Llambias, although I bet he enjoys calling the shots. The question is whether Pardew has much involvement in transfers in and out; as time wears on I've become more convinced he doesn't play any significant part in either, although I expect his opinion would be canvassed at some point especially regarding incomings and squad needs.

 

It's inconceivable that he'd be totally in the dark but the Carroll episode suggests he knew fuck all about his transfer out, similarly he said consistently he'd like to keep Nolan, only to see him sold. He seems to be up to speed with Enrique and Barton's situtationa but that's possibly because nothing has happened yet. I suspect he's loosely kept in the loop from time to time but has no say in outgoings and probably very little on incomings. That's what the current situation suggests to me anyway based on his public comments vs what actually happens.

 

Regarding his stubborness, it depends on whether you think he signed up to this way of doing things when he took on the job. If he did, he's got nothing to be stubborn about, imo. He'll be presented with the final squad on 31 Aug and he'll get on with his job in the meantime.

 

 

Interesting concept, that the head scout reports to Llambias. Can't see it myself, but I can buy into Llambias getting a run down on what scope there is for development (increasing resale value).

 

I totally buy into Pardew having little say on out goings - Saylor being the obvious exception.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

I think too many in this thread are living in the world of fantasy football and not real life.

 

At virtually every club up and down the country you will have a team of scouts that are continually "scouting". They will be working to whatever the clubs policy is, ie no point Mr Carr watching Messi.

 

Meetings will take place at key dates throughout the year where the manager will plead his case and the money men will say how much is available. Scouts then briefed about the style of player the manager wants and so the process begins and the scouts watch and report back over quite a long period of time.

 

Further meetings take place and the manager decided whether to follow up and watch the player himself. Assuming he does and likes what he sees, the manager then passes the matter over to the money men to close the deal.

 

I dont see how this works any differently at any other club.

 

The only difference is the wad the club has to play with.

 

Does anyone seriously think Sir Alex goes out and scouts his own player? Of course not and has said many times how valuable his scouting team is.

 

Outgoings of course is a slightly different kettle of fish, but at the end of the day, most clubs will have to take a business view on whether a contract is doable or not. Sure Sir Alex could throw a wobbler because of his long standing and keep a player like Nolan.

 

However in our financial position and with the new incomings, Nolan would have been a very expensive bench warmer.

 

As much as we would all like to be in the rose tinted days when KK spotted a great player and Sir John flashed the cheque book, those days are long gone. In todays game a club aiming for success needs the money men controlling the money, the scouts scouting and the manager managing.

[Monkeys Fist 42001]

You seem to miss your own basic poit CT.

"A club aiming for success"

There's the difference between us and Man U Arsenal etc.

 

Our transfer policy is aimed primarily towards Fatty recouping his initial investments by cutting costs.

 

Theirs is towards success.

[Isegrim 9711]

Meetings will take place at key dates throughout the year where the manager will plead his case and the money men will say how much is available. Scouts then briefed about the style of player the manager wants and so the process begins and the scouts watch and report back over quite a long period of time.

 

Further meetings take place and the manager decided whether to follow up and watch the player himself. Assuming he does and likes what he sees, the manager then passes the matter over to the money men to close the deal.

 

I dont see how this works any differently at any other club.

Yes, that's exactly how Keegan said the board is doing transfer deals...

[Christmas Tree 4679]

You seem to miss your own basic poit CT.

"A club aiming for success"

There's the difference between us and Man U Arsenal etc.

 

Our transfer policy is aimed primarily towards Fatty recouping his initial investments by cutting costs.

 

Theirs is towards success.

 

 

Least I can spell it.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

You seem to miss your own basic poit CT.

"A club aiming for success"

There's the difference between us and Man U Arsenal etc.

 

Our transfer policy is aimed primarily towards Fatty recouping his initial investments by cutting costs.

 

Theirs is towards success.

 

Naturally I think that view is pants, however its been done to death in three different threads every week for years so cant be arsed to do it again.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Meetings will take place at key dates throughout the year where the manager will plead his case and the money men will say how much is available. Scouts then briefed about the style of player the manager wants and so the process begins and the scouts watch and report back over quite a long period of time.

 

Further meetings take place and the manager decided whether to follow up and watch the player himself. Assuming he does and likes what he sees, the manager then passes the matter over to the money men to close the deal.

 

I dont see how this works any differently at any other club.

Yes, that's exactly how Keegan said the board is doing transfer deals...

 

Think times have moved on a bit since Keegan but hey ho.

[Monkeys Fist 42001]

You seem to miss your own basic poit CT.

"A club aiming for success"

There's the difference between us and Man U Arsenal etc.

 

Our transfer policy is aimed primarily towards Fatty recouping his initial investments by cutting costs.

 

Theirs is towards success.

 

Naturally I think that view is pants, however its been done to death in three different threads every week for years so cant be arsed to do it again.

And yet you do, like clockwork.

[PaddockLad 17063]

The F in DoF stand for Football, and Wise went ages ago. Llambias only cares about the money. While this may seem like splitting hair to most people, as the result is the same (the manager doesn't have total control). There is actually a massive difference. A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value.

 

Paddocklad is suggesting that Carr is acting as a sort of DoF, see above. I don't disagree with your analysis of Llambias, although I bet he enjoys calling the shots. The question is whether Pardew has much involvement in transfers in and out; as time wears on I've become more convinced he doesn't play any significant part in either, although I expect his opinion would be canvassed at some point especially regarding incomings and squad needs.

 

It's inconceivable that he'd be totally in the dark but the Carroll episode suggests he knew fuck all about his transfer out, similarly he said consistently he'd like to keep Nolan, only to see him sold. He seems to be up to speed with Enrique and Barton's situtationa but that's possibly because nothing has happened yet. I suspect he's loosely kept in the loop from time to time but has no say in outgoings and probably very little on incomings. That's what the current situation suggests to me anyway based on his public comments vs what actually happens.

 

Regarding his stubborness, it depends on whether you think he signed up to this way of doing things when he took on the job. If he did, he's got nothing to be stubborn about, imo. He'll be presented with the final squad on 31 Aug and he'll get on with his job in the meantime.

 

 

Interesting concept, that the head scout reports to Llambias. Can't see it myself, but I can buy into Llambias getting a run down on what scope there is for development (increasing resale value).

 

I totally buy into Pardew having little say on out goings - Saylor being the obvious exception.

Carr was recruited and is employed by lambchop and may also be shown the door by him if things dont go well next season, as the chief scouts

of West Ham and Birmingham found out to their costs.

 

Fergie was appointed in a different era, and basically in a different universe football wise so CT and anyone else using him for comparison on this issue is basically using the wrong man. He appoints all his own scouts and they report to him. He also has final say on who comer and goes,even at academy level. All that is in his autobiography. The better comparison is with Pardews playing peers, those of a similar age....I think if someone was brought in over Steve Bruce's head and started telling him which players he could and couldnt have hed tell Niall Quinn to shove it up his arse. Which is basically what KK told lambchop and Wise two or three years back.Some managers want to live or die by their own decisions, others are willing to let their employment be affected in a huge way by the judgement of others. Football is changing in that regard, but not for the better if you ask me.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

You seem to miss your own basic poit CT.

"A club aiming for success"

There's the difference between us and Man U Arsenal etc.

 

Our transfer policy is aimed primarily towards Fatty recouping his initial investments by cutting costs.

 

Theirs is towards success.

 

Naturally I think that view is pants, however its been done to death in three different threads every week for years so cant be arsed to do it again.

And yet you do, like clockwork.

 

You brought greedy Ashley in, not moi.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

The F in DoF stand for Football, and Wise went ages ago. Llambias only cares about the money. While this may seem like splitting hair to most people, as the result is the same (the manager doesn't have total control). There is actually a massive difference. A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value.

 

Paddocklad is suggesting that Carr is acting as a sort of DoF, see above. I don't disagree with your analysis of Llambias, although I bet he enjoys calling the shots. The question is whether Pardew has much involvement in transfers in and out; as time wears on I've become more convinced he doesn't play any significant part in either, although I expect his opinion would be canvassed at some point especially regarding incomings and squad needs.

 

It's inconceivable that he'd be totally in the dark but the Carroll episode suggests he knew fuck all about his transfer out, similarly he said consistently he'd like to keep Nolan, only to see him sold. He seems to be up to speed with Enrique and Barton's situtationa but that's possibly because nothing has happened yet. I suspect he's loosely kept in the loop from time to time but has no say in outgoings and probably very little on incomings. That's what the current situation suggests to me anyway based on his public comments vs what actually happens.

 

Regarding his stubborness, it depends on whether you think he signed up to this way of doing things when he took on the job. If he did, he's got nothing to be stubborn about, imo. He'll be presented with the final squad on 31 Aug and he'll get on with his job in the meantime.

 

 

Interesting concept, that the head scout reports to Llambias. Can't see it myself, but I can buy into Llambias getting a run down on what scope there is for development (increasing resale value).

 

I totally buy into Pardew having little say on out goings - Saylor being the obvious exception.

Carr was recruited and is employed by lambchop and may also be shown the door by him if things dont go well next season, as the chief scouts

of West Ham and Birmingham found out to their costs.

 

Fergie was appointed in a different era, and basically in a different universe football wise so CT and anyone else using him for comparison on this issue is basically using the wrong man. He appoints all his own scouts and they report to him. He also has final say on who comer and goes,even at academy level. All that is in his autobiography. The better comparison is with Pardews playing peers, those of a similar age....I think if someone was brought in over Steve Bruce's head and started telling him which players he could and couldnt have hed tell Niall Quinn to shove it up his arse. Which is basically what KK told lambchop and Wise two or three years back.Some managers want to live or die by their own decisions, others are willing to let their employment be affected in a huge way by the judgement of others. Football is changing in that regard, but not for the better if you ask me.

 

 

I think you are over simplifying the argument.

 

First of all, there is no evidence of Pardew getting players he doesnt want.

 

Secondly, I think its fair that Pardew probably was left in no doubt about the set up when he joined which is totally different to an established boss like Bruce suddenly having those changes made.

 

Thirdly, as we and sunderland and many other clubs know, simply letting a manager get on and do whatever he wants with no regard for how those financial decisions effect the club, does not usually have a happing ending. Bruce has squandered millions of late on shit.

 

Bruce is having to sell to re-build just as Harry is having to do at Spurs.

 

Its ALL about living within your means these days apart from a select few.

 

Just be thankful we are not Everton.

[ChezGiven 0]

I think Kitman is talking shit. There may be shades of truth in what he says but the characterisation is unrealistic.

[PaddockLad 17063]

CT are you suggesting that clubs have only had to balance the books since last season? And Spurs got rid of Commolli because Harry wants to get sacked if he fucked up, not if someone else did. Thats the bottom line in this, to stand or fall by your own abilities. Pardew doesnt seem to mind. I would if I were offered the job at NUFC. Beautifully illustrated by Redknapp himself whe Mort got a polite but firm 'no' when he offered to him. For the record Spurs were bottom of the league when Harry went there and last season played in the quarter finals of the european cup. Yes hes had to sell to buy to acheive that, but spurs got a man with real ability. We got relegated. See the difference?

[Isegrim 9711]

Meetings will take place at key dates throughout the year where the manager will plead his case and the money men will say how much is available. Scouts then briefed about the style of player the manager wants and so the process begins and the scouts watch and report back over quite a long period of time.

 

Further meetings take place and the manager decided whether to follow up and watch the player himself. Assuming he does and likes what he sees, the manager then passes the matter over to the money men to close the deal.

 

I dont see how this works any differently at any other club.

Yes, that's exactly how Keegan said the board is doing transfer deals...

 

Think times have moved on a bit since Keegan but hey ho.

It was you who suggested that anything else than the scenario you described is "living in the world of fantasy football and not real life".

 

I do neither see that "virtually every other club in the country" is doing business the way you describe nor do I see evidence that this is how Newcastle acted in the past and is doing it right now.

[Mac-Toon 1]

The F in DoF stand for Football, and Wise went ages ago. Llambias only cares about the money. While this may seem like splitting hair to most people, as the result is the same (the manager doesn't have total control). There is actually a massive difference. A DoF wants to control and shape the team, so has a vested interest in players. Llambias interest imo stops at will they have a resale value.

 

Paddocklad is suggesting that Carr is acting as a sort of DoF, see above. I don't disagree with your analysis of Llambias, although I bet he enjoys calling the shots. The question is whether Pardew has much involvement in transfers in and out; as time wears on I've become more convinced he doesn't play any significant part in either, although I expect his opinion would be canvassed at some point especially regarding incomings and squad needs.

 

It's inconceivable that he'd be totally in the dark but the Carroll episode suggests he knew fuck all about his transfer out, similarly he said consistently he'd like to keep Nolan, only to see him sold. He seems to be up to speed with Enrique and Barton's situtationa but that's possibly because nothing has happened yet. I suspect he's loosely kept in the loop from time to time but has no say in outgoings and probably very little on incomings. That's what the current situation suggests to me anyway based on his public comments vs what actually happens.

 

Regarding his stubborness, it depends on whether you think he signed up to this way of doing things when he took on the job. If he did, he's got nothing to be stubborn about, imo. He'll be presented with the final squad on 31 Aug and he'll get on with his job in the meantime.

 

 

Interesting concept, that the head scout reports to Llambias. Can't see it myself, but I can buy into Llambias getting a run down on what scope there is for development (increasing resale value).

 

I totally buy into Pardew having little say on out goings - Saylor being the obvious exception.

Carr was recruited and is employed by lambchop and may also be shown the door by him if things dont go well next season, as the chief scouts

of West Ham and Birmingham found out to their costs.

 

Fergie was appointed in a different era, and basically in a different universe football wise so CT and anyone else using him for comparison on this issue is basically using the wrong man. He appoints all his own scouts and they report to him. He also has final say on who comer and goes,even at academy level. All that is in his autobiography. The better comparison is with Pardews playing peers, those of a similar age....I think if someone was brought in over Steve Bruce's head and started telling him which players he could and couldnt have hed tell Niall Quinn to shove it up his arse. Which is basically what KK told lambchop and Wise two or three years back.Some managers want to live or die by their own decisions, others are willing to let their employment be affected in a huge way by the judgement of others. Football is changing in that regard, but not for the better if you ask me.

 

 

I think you are over simplifying the argument.

 

First of all, there is no evidence of Pardew getting players he doesnt want.

 

Secondly, I think its fair that Pardew probably was left in no doubt about the set up when he joined which is totally different to an established boss like Bruce suddenly having those changes made.

 

Thirdly, as we and sunderland and many other clubs know, simply letting a manager get on and do whatever he wants with no regard for how those financial decisions effect the club, does not usually have a happing ending. Bruce has squandered millions of late on shit.

 

Bruce is having to sell to re-build just as Harry is having to do at Spurs.

 

Its ALL about living within your means these days apart from a select few.

 

Just be thankful we are not Everton.

Third highest gate receipts in English football, GLobal fanbase accounting for lots of merchandise and a vast net profit through the sales of players lead me into think we're living to far within our means nowadays. Speculate to accumulate in this game.

 

There's being careful with money and then there's taking the piss. Ashleys regime has done the latter. Honestly CT he could call your wife a cunt and abuse your taxi driving skills and you'd still blame mitigating circumstances etc.

[peasepud 59]

Meetings will take place at key dates throughout the year where the manager will plead his case and the money men will say how much is available. Scouts then briefed about the style of player the manager wants and so the process begins and the scouts watch and report back over quite a long period of time.

I would say thats totally and utterly wrong.

 

The role of scouts is to find young, untapped talent, highlight those players that the manager would not have had a chance to see himself. I wouldnt say its to fill specific gaps in the squad or to replace players leaving.

 

Do you think that we sold Cole and a scout was told "we need a striker to replace Andy Cole" "got you the ideal one here boss, bloke called Shearer, plays for Blackburn" "oh aye? is he any good?"

 

Managers know the players they want, Dalglish didnt rely on a scout to find Carroll nor has Enrique been recommended to Wenger at some finance meeting by a scout.

 

Scouts should be there to do exactly what Carr has been tasked with, find young foreign or lower league talent that will be cheap. The difference is he appears to be doing that for all the squad places rather than Pardew building his team and topping up the squad with scout found purchases. I could be wrong with that assesment but its how it appears from the outside.

[ChezGiven 0]

Failing to even account for the fact that both Villa and Sunderland speculated last season and their revenues are exactly the same. Admirable sentiments mac-toon but explain to me how the clubs who have speculated have generated more revenue?

 

Speculate to accumulate? Putting an extra 3000 bums on seats is not going to finance a pop at beating Barcelona in the CL final, is it?

[Asprilla 96]

To be fair, the last few years have been insane regarding football transfers. Managers really didn't have much to lose. They could spend someone elses money on a player and if it didn't work out hey ho. They were still in line for a huge payout if they were sacked.

 

Also, in several cases including our own, the chairmen also had very little to lose. It wasn't HIS money and increasingly it was borrowed money. The gamble relied on a best case scenario and in our case, although it was exciting for a while, we had very little to show for it in real terms. Boasting about attendances and CL appearances is a poor second to actually winning trophies.

 

 

Having said all that, there's precious little point shelling out money every week if every time you get a good player they're sold to the highest bidder.

 

 

Tbh, if we sign a top drawer striker and don't sell anyone else, I'll give Ashley credit. Sadly, that's rather unlikely.

[ChezGiven 0]

The speculation on 'how things work' inside the club is just laughable btw. I'd expect more but who am i kidding.

[ewerk 30221]

How long has Carr been in the job?

[Kitman 2204]

I think Kitman is talking shit. There may be shades of truth in what he says but the characterisation is unrealistic.

 

I think it's an interesting theory. It's speculative of course