Religion

[Renton 21400]

I had a massive post prepared here, but what's the point? This is an essentially unwinnable one. Those who think religion is bunk and God doesn't exist will never accept any argument to the contrary and vice versa. I'll just give you one quote, which is one of my all-time favourites: "...then unto Me you shall return, and I will tell you the truth about that which you differed in." (3:55) In other words, don't bother differing over this topic while you're alive, because you're going to know the truth one way or the other when you die.

 

I think religion is useful to give people a moral code and to imbue them with certain values that are important to society. That doesn't mean that those things can't be done without involving an omnipotent creator of the world, but I'd say there's a reason that religion has endured for, in some cases, thousands of years and is still going strong in many parts of the world, and that is that it's easier and works better when you use God.

 

I'd appreciate an answer to the God branding question if nothing else (i.e. the point about being born into particular religions). Alex posed that as an eight year old and as far as I can tell no-one has a remotely satisfactory answer to it. What type of religion or philosophy can't answer a question posed by an eight year old, before 5 o'clock preferably?

[Guest alex]

I had a massive post prepared here, but what's the point? This is an essentially unwinnable one. Those who think religion is bunk and God doesn't exist will never accept any argument to the contrary and vice versa. I'll just give you one quote, which is one of my all-time favourites: "...then unto Me you shall return, and I will tell you the truth about that which you differed in." (3:55) In other words, don't bother differing over this topic while you're alive, because you're going to know the truth one way or the other when you die.

Cheers, that's something to look forward to

[acrossthepond 874]

Easily enough done. I actually had that one covered in my earlier write-up before I deleted it.

 

"For every community has a direction of its own, therefore vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever you may be, God will bring you all together, for God has power over all things." (2:148)

 

I take that line to mean that the other religions of the world have their own traditions but that we are unified in doing good works, and that the measure of piety and worthiness to God is not the manner in which you worship him, but the value of the good you do in his service, whatever you call him and whichever rituals you follow in doing so.

[ewerk 30381]

I had a massive post prepared here, but what's the point? This is an essentially unwinnable one. Those who think religion is bunk and God doesn't exist will never accept any argument to the contrary and vice versa. I'll just give you one quote, which is one of my all-time favourites: "...then unto Me you shall return, and I will tell you the truth about that which you differed in." (3:55) In other words, don't bother differing over this topic while you're alive, because you're going to know the truth one way or the other when you die.

 

I think religion is useful to give people a moral code and to imbue them with certain values that are important to society. That doesn't mean that those things can't be done without involving an omnipotent creator of the world, but I'd say there's a reason that religion has endured for, in some cases, thousands of years and is still going strong in many parts of the world, and that is that it's easier and works better when you use God.

 

I'd appreciate an answer to the God branding question if nothing else (i.e. the point about being born into particular religions). Alex posed that as an eight year old and as far as I can tell no-one has a remotely satisfactory answer to it. What type of religion or philosophy can't answer a question posed by an eight year old, before 5 o'clock preferably?

 

I tried. I don't think you will be satisfied by any sort of answer.

[Renton 21400]

Easily enough done. I actually had that one covered in my earlier write-up before I deleted it.

 

"For every community has a direction of its own, therefore vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever you may be, God will bring you all together, for God has power over all things." (2:148)

 

I take that line to mean that the other religions of the world have their own traditions but that we are unified in doing good works, and that the measure of piety and worthiness to God is not the manner in which you worship him, but the value of the good you do in his service, whatever you call him and whichever rituals you follow in doing so.

 

Interesting quote that, although rather selective I bet and open to interpretation, of course. Do you interpret that as meaning 'good' people go to heaven regardless of their creed? That's obviously not what christian salvationists believe or I suspect what many muslims believe.

 

At the end of the day, the 'great' religions all have fundamental contradictions and they can't all be right. It's glaringly obvious, your quote doesn't answer that for me.

[trophyshy 7073]

Humans evolved our own morals and ethics which religion subsequently hijacked and called their own.

 

All social animals develop rules about what is acceptable in their society and those who transgress are rejected from that society, not being part of the society makes your fitness (chances to pass on your genes) considerably reduced.

 

Religion is not morals. If you want to believe in fairies do so but don't discredit human evolution's ability to work out how to live in a mutually beneficial way.

 

Do good because you want to improve life on earth for all not because you want to sit on a cloud for all eternity wishing you had a Game Boy.

 

I believe we will remain immature as a universal sentient animal until we abandon the place in the universe we occupy when we think that we are created by a supreme being. This may take many millenia or may never happen.

 

But as I think someone has already pointed out, people with faith are steadfast in that, people with reason are also fairly robust. So, there's nowt more to say really. Whatever makes you happy as long as you don't kill for your beliefs, which is the greatest irony of all.

Edited September 15, 2010 by trophyshy

[JawD 99]

The concept of religion sounded fine until Man got their hands on it....

[acrossthepond 874]

Easily enough done. I actually had that one covered in my earlier write-up before I deleted it.

 

"For every community has a direction of its own, therefore vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever you may be, God will bring you all together, for God has power over all things." (2:148)

 

I take that line to mean that the other religions of the world have their own traditions but that we are unified in doing good works, and that the measure of piety and worthiness to God is not the manner in which you worship him, but the value of the good you do in his service, whatever you call him and whichever rituals you follow in doing so.

 

Interesting quote that, although rather selective I bet and open to interpretation, of course. Do you interpret that as meaning 'good' people go to heaven regardless of their creed? That's obviously not what christian salvationists believe or I suspect what many muslims believe.

 

At the end of the day, the 'great' religions all have fundamental contradictions and they can't all be right. It's glaringly obvious, your quote doesn't answer that for me.

 

It certainly is open to interpretation. As for your question, there's no doubt that that's what it means, whether or not 'many Muslims' believe it:

 

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, and whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall receive their reward from their Lord - they shall not fear neither shall they grieve." (2:62)

 

I guess some mullahs can hem and haw over that one, but it looks pretty plain to me that it says that anyone who believes in God and does good work will go to heaven. Which is my belief. But again, it's quite certain that people of a less inclusive bent than myself can gin up other Qur'anic quotes that 'prove' that non-Muslims are idolaters and the only way to heaven is through Islam.

 

I certainly agree that there are contradictions in Islam and the other Abrahamic religions, and probably in the Eastern traditions as well. That's why we have free will. We have to decide which path to follow of our own free will - and I agree with trophyshy when he says that we should choose the right path because we love our fellow man rather than because we want to be rewarded in the next life.

[Renton 21400]

Easily enough done. I actually had that one covered in my earlier write-up before I deleted it.

 

"For every community has a direction of its own, therefore vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever you may be, God will bring you all together, for God has power over all things." (2:148)

 

I take that line to mean that the other religions of the world have their own traditions but that we are unified in doing good works, and that the measure of piety and worthiness to God is not the manner in which you worship him, but the value of the good you do in his service, whatever you call him and whichever rituals you follow in doing so.

 

Interesting quote that, although rather selective I bet and open to interpretation, of course. Do you interpret that as meaning 'good' people go to heaven regardless of their creed? That's obviously not what christian salvationists believe or I suspect what many muslims believe.

 

At the end of the day, the 'great' religions all have fundamental contradictions and they can't all be right. It's glaringly obvious, your quote doesn't answer that for me.

 

It certainly is open to interpretation. As for your question, there's no doubt that that's what it means, whether or not 'many Muslims' believe it:

 

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, and whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall receive their reward from their Lord - they shall not fear neither shall they grieve." (2:62)

 

I guess some mullahs can hem and haw over that one, but it looks pretty plain to me that it says that anyone who believes in God and does good work will go to heaven. Which is my belief. But again, it's quite certain that people of a less inclusive bent than myself can gin up other Qur'anic quotes that 'prove' that non-Muslims are idolaters and the only way to heaven is through Islam.

 

I certainly agree that there are contradictions in Islam and the other Abrahamic religions, and probably in the Eastern traditions as well. That's why we have free will. We have to decide which path to follow of our own free will - and I agree with trophyshy when he says that we should choose the right path because we love our fellow man rather than because we want to be rewarded in the next life.

 

Canny. So as an atheist the implication there is I am doomed to Hell. At least my Mum will be OK though.

 

Of course, the point still stands that you believe that specific passage, and not another one, because of a fluke of chance (assuming you're not a convert).

[acrossthepond 874]

Well, if it comes down to atheism vs. belief, there isn't much that any of us can offer to that debate. I don't understand how some people decide they can conclude that God doesn't exist. If we define 'God' as 'a higher being who created, at the least, this world', then how can anyone disprove his existence? He would exist on a higher level to us, would possibly be incomprehensible to us. How can you interact with something that is infinitely more complex and advanced than you? How can you even perceive it?

 

On the other hand, how can we prove that he does exist? He's never spoken to me, I've never seen him, nor have I ever seen any concrete proof of his presence in the world. So at the most basic level, none of us can be sure whether or not he's there. Some, like me, believe he exists. Some, like you, believe he doesn't. And some just aren't sure. I respect the other two positions, although I think they're wrong. But I think it's a load of patronising nonsense when people say, "how can anyone of intelligence believe in this fairy tale" etc etc. I'd answer, "how can anyone of intelligence be ready to write off something greater than himself as a fairy tale?"

[Guest alex]

Just do me a favour ATP. Don't take it too seriously, ok.

[acrossthepond 874]

Just do me a favour ATP. Don't take it too seriously, ok.

 

Oh, I don't know. I get quite volatile when infidels like you start questioning Allah.

 

You might say I have an explosive personality.

[Guest alex]

[Renton 21400]

Well, if it comes down to atheism vs. belief, there isn't much that any of us can offer to that debate. I don't understand how some people decide they can conclude that God doesn't exist. If we define 'God' as 'a higher being who created, at the least, this world', then how can anyone disprove his existence? He would exist on a higher level to us, would possibly be incomprehensible to us. How can you interact with something that is infinitely more complex and advanced than you? How can you even perceive it?

 

On the other hand, how can we prove that he does exist? He's never spoken to me, I've never seen him, nor have I ever seen any concrete proof of his presence in the world. So at the most basic level, none of us can be sure whether or not he's there. Some, like me, believe he exists. Some, like you, believe he doesn't. And some just aren't sure. I respect the other two positions, although I think they're wrong. But I think it's a load of patronising nonsense when people say, "how can anyone of intelligence believe in this fairy tale" etc etc. I'd answer, "how can anyone of intelligence be ready to write off something greater than himself as a fairy tale?"

 

I'm assuming you are aware of Bertrand's teapot and the Flying Spaghetti monster etc. Of course God's non-existence cannot be proven, but that is a very odd way of looking at the World, as shown by these analogies. And still it doesn't justify your belief in your own particular brand of God.

 

Once you accept that your belief is purely down to chance, does it not enter your head you might just be wrong? The 8 year old still hasn't been answered.

 

Edit: regarding offence, don't worry, I do not feel offended that believers think my non-belief will mean I will be tortured for eternity.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Renton

[SloopJohn 0]

Renton what Theology have you studied?

[Guest alex]

Renton what Theology have you studied?

Don't pull that shit again

[Renton 21400]

Renton what Theology have you studied?

 

I've not formally studied any theology. Am I not qualifed for the God debate?

 

Any theologians can feel free to answer the God brand question btw.

[SloopJohn 0]

Renton what Theology have you studied?

Don't pull that shit again

[Guest alex]

Anyone read any Geza Vermes btw?

[acrossthepond 874]

I'm not even sure I fully understand the question. It seems you're asking that since it was by chance that I myself am a Muslim in the first place - I'm not a convert, no, so the point is that I could've just as easily been born to Jewish parents, for example, or that I could've been raised in my mother's religion (Church of England) rather than my father's - doesn't that make me wonder as to whether or not Islam is the 'right' religion, and wouldn't I think that Judaism is the 'right' religion if I had been born into that tradition?

 

But I thought I just showed you that it doesn't matter. Religious traditions share common elements, foremost among them belief in the God who created the universe and an injunction to live in an upright matter and show respect for yourself, your fellow man, and God. Adherence to those values is what I believe God is looking for, not your ability to memorize one holy book's teachings or another or what language you speak in when you pray, for example.

 

I'd like to think that had I been raised in a different religion, I would still be able to recognise that good works and devotion to your fellow man are things that transcend religious tradition (and indeed are routinely practised by people who don't consider themselves religious).

 

Is anything I'm saying making sense or am I missing the point entirely?

[Guest alex]

Well, as a kid, I asked the question "If there are so many different religions with different ideas, how do we know ours is right?" I'm not expecting an answer btw, but at the time it came from an 8 year old who thought he believed in Jesus and God as per what I'd been taught in school etc. At that time we had RE, stories read to us that were either Biblical adaptations for kids or overtly Christian in terms of morality, message etc. We also sung hymns and had an assembly with a religious element every day. Seems odd now thinking back although for all that I never felt like it was shoved down my throat. In a particular lesson I asked the question because it was something that troubled me and I don't think I've ever had an adequate answer. An adequate answer to something like that is a very personal / subjective thing though.

[acrossthepond 874]

Then yeah, I think I'm on the right track. My point is that there may be many different religions but that at their core they all have the same idea, which is the 'right' one.

 

Me mam was much like you. The church delayed her confirmation for years because she asked too many difficult questions. Pretty much turned her off of organised religion for life, although she still has her own personal faith.

[Renton 21400]

I'm not even sure I fully understand the question. It seems you're asking that since it was by chance that I myself am a Muslim in the first place - I'm not a convert, no, so the point is that I could've just as easily been born to Jewish parents, for example, or that I could've been raised in my mother's religion (Church of England) rather than my father's - doesn't that make me wonder as to whether or not Islam is the 'right' religion, and wouldn't I think that Judaism is the 'right' religion if I had been born into that tradition?

 

But I thought I just showed you that it doesn't matter. Religious traditions share common elements, foremost among them belief in the God who created the universe and an injunction to live in an upright matter and show respect for yourself, your fellow man, and God. Adherence to those values is what I believe God is looking for, not your ability to memorize one holy book's teachings or another or what language you speak in when you pray, for example.

 

I'd like to think that had I been raised in a different religion, I would still be able to recognise that good works and devotion to your fellow man are things that transcend religious tradition (and indeed are routinely practised by people who don't consider themselves religious).

 

Is anything I'm saying making sense or am I missing the point entirely?

 

Aye, that makes sense to me in a way, if you are purely regarding religion as a form of tradition, rather than an absolute truth. I can completely respect that, but I don't think its a typical religious position - it almost reminds me of the position of a 'secular jew' which seems to be common in your home town. Most religious people however seem to have an arrogance that their version is correct, end of story, otherwise why do we need segregation, even in places of worship? Why is there such conflict and tension in the world? Or am I missing the point?

 

I still think the viewpoint of a personal God is somewhat at odds with common sense though. Why would God go to the bother of creating a Universe that is vast in terms of space and time just for the benefit of homo sapiens living in modern times? We are but the smallest speck living in the tiniest window of time. Does that not strike you as a just a wee bit nonsensical? But maybe that's an argument for another day.

[Christmas Tree 4711]

To me being a Catholic is a bit like being a Newcastle United supporter. I don't know any different and it's just what I am. Sometimes I'm ashamed, horrified and embarrassed by it, sometimes I get comfort, joy and hope from it. I choose how closely I follow it and take the bits from it that I want to.

 

To each their own.

 

 

 

But surely as a reasonably intelligent human being you understand that there is no Supreme being, pearly gates or fiery pit etc.

 

Yes you've being brainwashed in your youth, but surely that's no excuse now. Common sense let's children eventually see through the tooth fairy and Santa ( sorry Kevin ), so why not God.

 

I also don't buy the line religion teaches lots of good. There are countless good and kind people who manage to become that way without religion.

 

I understand why in the beginning people worshiped the sun, gold idols, volcanoes etc but just can't quite understand how it persists in modern times.

 

That's pretty rude CT, I get what you're trying to say, but you've just dismissed her faith as lacking in common sense and inferring that to be "reasonably intelligent" you must dismiss religion. Given that faith in an incredibly personal thing, to put it like this is fairly obnoxious iyam.

 

fwiw Darwin was fairly intelligent, he believed in a judeo-christian God (not sure which canon).

 

 

Given the OP i think Catmag wasnt too worried about discussing her views or wont lose any sleep about a strangers replies on an internet forum.

[Renton 21400]

To me being a Catholic is a bit like being a Newcastle United supporter. I don't know any different and it's just what I am. Sometimes I'm ashamed, horrified and embarrassed by it, sometimes I get comfort, joy and hope from it. I choose how closely I follow it and take the bits from it that I want to.

 

To each their own.

 

 

 

But surely as a reasonably intelligent human being you understand that there is no Supreme being, pearly gates or fiery pit etc.

 

Yes you've being brainwashed in your youth, but surely that's no excuse now. Common sense let's children eventually see through the tooth fairy and Santa ( sorry Kevin ), so why not God.

 

I also don't buy the line religion teaches lots of good. There are countless good and kind people who manage to become that way without religion.

 

I understand why in the beginning people worshiped the sun, gold idols, volcanoes etc but just can't quite understand how it persists in modern times.

 

That's pretty rude CT, I get what you're trying to say, but you've just dismissed her faith as lacking in common sense and inferring that to be "reasonably intelligent" you must dismiss religion. Given that faith in an incredibly personal thing, to put it like this is fairly obnoxious iyam.

 

fwiw Darwin was fairly intelligent, he believed in a judeo-christian God (not sure which canon).

 

 

Given the OP i think Catmag wasnt too worried about discussing her views or wont lose any sleep about a strangers replies on an internet forum.

 

Got to agree I don't see why there is a need to pussyfoot around religious beliefs.

 

Fish, Darwin did not believe in a personal God at all, where did you get that from?