In America

[LeazesMag 0]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

the word you are looking for here is "incompatibility"

[tooner 243]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

.....fwiw they were from saudi arabia not iran....and btw you were talking about freedom of speech not 9/11, try and stay on topic, take your anti dementia meds and try again in a couple of hours...

[Happy Face 29]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

[Renton 22007]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

[Happy Face 29]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

 

I think they all overstep the mark.....

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3028478

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-55438457.html

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/kan...tillers_murder/

 

etc.

 

I think you've fallen into the same trap a lot of people do by excusing it as a minority of catholics, christians, protestants when abortionists get killed and that, but maintaining it's 'many' muslims that are extreme.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Happy Face

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

HF makes a valid point. ATP also makes a fair point about religion not going anywhere. C. Hitchen's latest article on Slate deals with this sort of area, here's a link if anyone wants to read.

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2266154/ The taming and domestication of religious faith is one of the unceasing chores of civilization.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[LeazesMag 0]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

 

would you have allowed sympathisers of Hitler Youth to demonstrate in the streets of the UK and exercise their right of freedom of speech ?

[Renton 22007]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

 

I think they all overstep the mark.....

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3028478

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-55438457.html

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/kan...tillers_murder/

 

etc.

 

I think you've fallen into the same trap a lot of people do by excusing it as a minority of catholics, christians, protestants when abortionists get killed and that, but maintaining it's 'many' muslims that are extreme.

 

Well your first two links refer to sectarian problems in Northern Ireland and the last one is a religiously motivated murder against an arbortionist. As far as NI goes, I think it is much more complicated than just religion, and the latter link shows how a strongly held conviction can lead to perverse actions, just as animal liberation does in this country, for instance. But they're hardly international outright riots are they? Also I can see why someone gets worked up about abortion and commits murder if they literally believe abortion is murder - the action is obscene to me but I can understand the perverse logic of murdering the aborter in order to save 'lives'. I can also understand the tribal hatred in Northern Ireland even if I despair about it. But a mob trashing a Danish embassy because of some cartoons they've never even seen? Are you really telling me that Islam can absorb criticism and ridicule as well as christianity? I don't think so.

[Happy Face 29]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

 

would you have allowed sympathisers of Hitler Youth to demonstrate in the streets of the UK and exercise their right of freedom of speech ?

 

You mean like the neo-nazi's that still enjoy freedom of speech?

 

Aye.

[LeazesMag 0]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

 

would you have allowed sympathisers of Hitler Youth to demonstrate in the streets of the UK and exercise their right of freedom of speech ?

 

You mean like the neo-nazi's that still enjoy freedom of speech?

 

Aye.

 

so you would have supported Nazi's demonstrating on the streets of the UK during the 2nd world war ?

 

Deary deary me.

[Happy Face 29]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

 

I think they all overstep the mark.....

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3028478

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-55438457.html

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/kan...tillers_murder/

 

etc.

 

I think you've fallen into the same trap a lot of people do by excusing it as a minority of catholics, christians, protestants when abortionists get killed and that, but maintaining it's 'many' muslims that are extreme.

 

Well your first two links refer to sectarian problems in Northern Ireland and the last one is a religiously motivated murder against an arbortionist. As far as NI goes, I think it is much more complicated than just religion, and the latter link shows how a strongly held conviction can lead to perverse actions, just as animal liberation does in this country, for instance. But they're hardly international outright riots are they? Also I can see why someone gets worked up about abortion and commits murder if they literally believe abortion is murder - the action is obscene to me but I can understand the perverse logic of murdering the aborter in order to save 'lives'. I can also understand the tribal hatred in Northern Ireland even if I despair about it. But a mob trashing a Danish embassy because of some cartoons they've never even seen? Are you really telling me that Islam can absorb criticism and ridicule as well as christianity? I don't think so.

 

Protests are probably bigger and more frequent in muslim countries. That says more about the dwindling popularity of all religions in the west rather than the extremity of the most unhinged members of each church.

[Happy Face 29]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

 

would you have allowed sympathisers of Hitler Youth to demonstrate in the streets of the UK and exercise their right of freedom of speech ?

 

You mean like the neo-nazi's that still enjoy freedom of speech?

 

Aye.

 

so you would have supported Nazi's demonstrating on the streets of the UK during the 2nd world war ?

 

Deary deary me.

 

[LeazesMag 0]

he would too

[Renton 22007]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

 

I think they all overstep the mark.....

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3028478

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-55438457.html

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/kan...tillers_murder/

 

etc.

 

I think you've fallen into the same trap a lot of people do by excusing it as a minority of catholics, christians, protestants when abortionists get killed and that, but maintaining it's 'many' muslims that are extreme.

 

Well your first two links refer to sectarian problems in Northern Ireland and the last one is a religiously motivated murder against an arbortionist. As far as NI goes, I think it is much more complicated than just religion, and the latter link shows how a strongly held conviction can lead to perverse actions, just as animal liberation does in this country, for instance. But they're hardly international outright riots are they? Also I can see why someone gets worked up about abortion and commits murder if they literally believe abortion is murder - the action is obscene to me but I can understand the perverse logic of murdering the aborter in order to save 'lives'. I can also understand the tribal hatred in Northern Ireland even if I despair about it. But a mob trashing a Danish embassy because of some cartoons they've never even seen? Are you really telling me that Islam can absorb criticism and ridicule as well as christianity? I don't think so.

 

Protests are probably bigger and more frequent in muslim countries. That says more about the dwindling popularity of all religions in the west rather than the extremity of the most unhinged members of each church.

 

Well no, not really. You've offered a hypothesis there without much evidence to back it up (epecially considering the growth of evangelism in the US). Another simpler hypothesis is that the Islamic faith is, in general, more extreme and less tolerant than the older Abrahamic faiths.

 

An obvious example would be that a muslim can freely walk into St Peters in Rome. I'd like to see what would happen to you if you tried to even enter the city of Mecca - you would be arrested on the spot, imprisoned, and very likely tortured or even murdered. That's got nothing to do with unhinged extremists of the muslim faith, has it?

[tooner 243]

There is no point in having a religion if it isn't dangerous. © Parkour

 

Mankind has reached the stage in the 'Developed World' where any benefits of religion are outweighed by the negatives. It is all a great lie used to control the masses - Marx was spot on.

 

 

 

spot on Renton.

 

Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, the idea that people can get so het up over someone burning a fictional storybook is ridiculous. I have more important things to worry about in my life, religions are so crazily primitive I see anyone getting worked up about them as complete morons and of no real benefit to the human race.

 

An individual burning books is nowt worth worrying about. Fictional storybooks have been burnt by governments in the past on a scale I find disgusting though and would get het up about if it happened again. A distinction worth making I think.

 

We look forward to you standing in the centre of Tehran and exercising your right to free speech and telling them all how stupid they are

 

 

...you're funny. you think that this argument says it all.

the onus has to be on civil society to uphold the values we have instituted into our founding documents. otherewise we are just paying lip service to ideals we say we are fighting for abroad. i agree its shitty when people with different agendas/ideals who have come to the west (NA, EU) from countries where they wouldn't enjoy the same freedoms we have, complain or protest about things or say nasty things about the west . but the freedoms we enjoy can't just be for those who were born here, they have to apply to everyone equally.

no one has ever questioned that we have it better in the west than in Tehran.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q...995&bih=553

 

 

Do you think the middle east was a peaceful place that suffered no western aggression prior to 9/11 Leazes?

 

is the middle east where your allegiance lies too ?

 

Do you think the German resistance that opposed the Nazi party were unpatriotic?

 

would you have allowed sympathisers of Hitler Youth to demonstrate in the streets of the UK and exercise their right of freedom of speech ?

 

You mean like the neo-nazi's that still enjoy freedom of speech?

 

Aye.

 

so you would have supported Nazi's demonstrating on the streets of the UK during the 2nd world war ?

 

Deary deary me.

 

 

...wow! you're logic is staggering!.....

[tooner 243]

Most of the people having a whinge in this thread are just wishing for religion to go away. That's not going to happen in our lifetimes, so you may as well just wish for unicorns or scousers getting jobs () or something else that won't ever exist. I know Leazes will have a go for "dictating rules" to you, but you are just going to have to accept that a billion Muslims see the Qur'an as - literally - the word of God and value it accordingly, whether or not you find that to be a rational belief or not.

 

Once you accept that given, it's not hard to see why someone trying to burn them is something people are going to get worked up over. And if you don't accept it, we aren't even having the same conversation, so I'm not going to waste time trying to throw apples at you when you're only after oranges.

 

They all get worked up. Catholics haven't even seen bible's burnt, they lose their collective shit every time a film like the Life of Brian or Dogma says a word out of line.

 

 

Most christians get worked up in the way you've literally illustrated though. Would you not agree that many muslims have a tendency to react a bit more strongly than that, as witnessed by the ridiculous Mohammed cartoon incident?

 

If a mad mullah was burning Bibles in Saudi would anyone really give a shit?

 

I think they all overstep the mark.....

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3028478

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-55438457.html

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/kan...tillers_murder/

 

etc.

 

I think you've fallen into the same trap a lot of people do by excusing it as a minority of catholics, christians, protestants when abortionists get killed and that, but maintaining it's 'many' muslims that are extreme.

 

Well your first two links refer to sectarian problems in Northern Ireland and the last one is a religiously motivated murder against an arbortionist. As far as NI goes, I think it is much more complicated than just religion, and the latter link shows how a strongly held conviction can lead to perverse actions, just as animal liberation does in this country, for instance. But they're hardly international outright riots are they? Also I can see why someone gets worked up about abortion and commits murder if they literally believe abortion is murder - the action is obscene to me but I can understand the perverse logic of murdering the aborter in order to save 'lives'. I can also understand the tribal hatred in Northern Ireland even if I despair about it. But a mob trashing a Danish embassy because of some cartoons they've never even seen? Are you really telling me that Islam can absorb criticism and ridicule as well as christianity? I don't think so.

 

Protests are probably bigger and more frequent in muslim countries. That says more about the dwindling popularity of all religions in the west rather than the extremity of the most unhinged members of each church.

 

Well no, not really. You've offered a hypothesis there without much evidence to back it up (epecially considering the growth of evangelism in the US). Another simpler hypothesis is that the Islamic faith is, in general, more extreme and less tolerant than the older Abrahamic faiths.

 

An obvious example would be that a muslim can freely walk into St Peters in Rome. I'd like to see what would happen to you if you tried to even enter the city of Mecca - you would be arrested on the spot, imprisoned, and very likely tortured or even murdered. That's got nothing to do with unhinged extremists of the muslim faith, has it?

 

 

now you're just making stuff up... ...... ...ok so i looked it up and you're right but what you aren't saying is that the law which prohibits non-muslims from entering is not a religious one (ie Mohammed never said no muslims) it was made by the Saudi King so it is a Saudi law.

Edited September 10, 2010 by tooner

[Renton 22007]

now you're just making stuff up...

 

Do a bit of research and come back and tell me what you found out.

[TheMoog 0]

Primitives, a waste of resources on a planet that could be so much more.

[Happy Face 29]

Well no, not really. You've offered a hypothesis there without much evidence to back it up (epecially considering the growth of evangelism in the US). Another simpler hypothesis is that the Islamic faith is, in general, more extreme and less tolerant than the older Abrahamic faiths.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_...American_adults

 

Total christianity down 10% in the US in just 18 years.

 

People with no religion up almost 7%.

 

The growth in evangelism is just 0.6%

 

 

An obvious example would be that a muslim can freely walk into St Peters in Rome. I'd like to see what would happen to you if you tried to even enter the city of Mecca - you would be arrested on the spot, imprisoned, and very likely tortured or even murdered. That's got nothing to do with unhinged extremists of the muslim faith, has it?

 

Really? Genuinely never heard of any of that happening.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Happy Face

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I don't think it's so much to do with Islam not absorbing criticism as well as Christianity, even though that could well be the case at this moment; instead I would point to the radical Islamists who promulgate a narrative of Islam - and a perversion of it - that says the West is the enemy and oppressor of all Muslims and actively encourage the destruction of free enlightened societies by violent means, the ultimate goal being the reestablishment of a Caliphate.

With that in mind I would ask HappyFace what he thinks these swathes of Muslim protesters would think in regard to Islamic terrorism and if he is worried by that? He seems to hold the view that Islamic terrorism is somehow justified by legitimate grievances at the hands of past/current governments in the west, and that it is not a serious problem (or that perhaps it wasn't until the West incited terrorism through its actions). In the wake of 9/11, I wonder what course of action, if any, HappyFace deemed appropriate?

[TheMoog 0]

Well no, not really. You've offered a hypothesis there without much evidence to back it up (epecially considering the growth of evangelism in the US). Another simpler hypothesis is that the Islamic faith is, in general, more extreme and less tolerant than the older Abrahamic faiths.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_...American_adults

 

Total christianity down 10% in the US in just 18 years.

 

People with no religion up almost 7%.

 

The growth in evangelism is just 0.6%

 

 

An obvious example would be that a muslim can freely walk into St Peters in Rome. I'd like to see what would happen to you if you tried to even enter the city of Mecca - you would be arrested on the spot, imprisoned, and very likely tortured or even murdered. That's got nothing to do with unhinged extremists of the muslim faith, has it?

Really? Genuinely never heard of any of that happening.

 

Yep, totally true, just been searching for details on Google and there seems to be quite a bit about non-muslim being strictly prohibited from entering the city.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Armchair Pundit

[tooner 243]

now you're just making stuff up...

 

Do a bit of research and come back and tell me what you found out.

check my edit...

[acrossthepond 878]

Allowing Nazis - that is, enemies of Great Britain - to hold rallies in the UK during WWII would be ludicrous. I don't understand what relevance it has to this situation. We aren't in a war against Islam...are we? Or are you trying to say Muslims are enemies of Great Britain as well?

 

As far as what Renton is saying goes, nobody is getting "tortured or murdered" - that's laughable hyperbole. You've really got to tone down your generalisations. This isn't the first time. You constantly refer to Islam as though it were some sort of monolith. I remind you that in Sunni Islam there is no organised 'church' that makes policy decisions for Islam (there is such a thing in Shi'a Islam) and within Sunni Islam there are many divisions and that's even before getting into Shi'a and Ibadhis, etc.

 

Your reference to Mecca is really a reference to Saudi law, and I have never denied (in fact, have actively stated) that Saudi Arabia is among the most intolerant shitholes on earth. According to the Saudis, who proclaim themselves "keepers of the faith" and a load of other nonsense, Mecca is Muslim-only because of one ayat in the Qur'an which says that as "idolaters" are unclean, they should not be permitted to enter Mecca. "Idolaters" is a tough one to define and I'm sure mullahs could argue me in knots over that one, but I can conclusively say that there are dozens of quotes in the Qur'an that contradict the notion that Christians and Jews, at the absolute least, are idolaters. So keeping them out is really just a power play from the extremely radical Wahhabi-dominated Saudi government.

 

For myself, I think that non-Muslims should be allowed to enter the holy cities at any time except for the annual pilgrimage, during which time they're crowded and dangerous enough with only Muslims and adding more people to the mix would only exacerbate the problem.

 

I also disagree with the contention that Islam is somehow intrinsically more intolerant than the other Abrahamic religions. I remind you that the Muslim world was a bastion of religious freedom for centuries while Europe was crusading, slaughtering each other over sectarian divides, and running Inquisitions. As I have spoken exhaustively about in previous posts, there is definitely a trend of radicalisation and thus intolerance in the Muslim world, but it exists only over the last 100 years and it is reversible. What Happy Face says about the relative importance of Islam in Islamic society vs. religion in Western society is a very germane point. You can bet your bottom dollar that if we rewound a good hundred years, we'd see widespread protest if some Muslims decided to grab a stack of Bibles and burn them.

 

Is the Muslim world 100 years behind the Western world? Hardly, but as I have already told you all, we are extremely backward in many respects and that's something we have got to work on. Stunts like this are not going to make that happen. They will only provide fuel for the people you describe as 'cavemen' who are working to keep us in the 7th century A.D.

[Renton 22007]

Well no, not really. You've offered a hypothesis there without much evidence to back it up (epecially considering the growth of evangelism in the US). Another simpler hypothesis is that the Islamic faith is, in general, more extreme and less tolerant than the older Abrahamic faiths.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_...American_adults

 

Total christianity down 10% in the US in just 18 years.

 

People with no religion up almost 7%.

 

The growth in evangelism is just 0.6%

 

 

An obvious example would be that a muslim can freely walk into St Peters in Rome. I'd like to see what would happen to you if you tried to even enter the city of Mecca - you would be arrested on the spot, imprisoned, and very likely tortured or even murdered. That's got nothing to do with unhinged extremists of the muslim faith, has it?

 

Really? Genuinely never heard of any of that happening.

 

Clutching at straws here HF. If you don't believe me about Mecca then I suggest you book a holiday there and see how it turns out.

 

I appreciate that Saudis represent one of the more extreme sects (Wahhabism) but they have a central role in International Islam. Also, let's not forget how extreme the other branch of Islam - the Shiites - can be, as witnessed right now in the high profile Iranian case where a women may be stoned to death for the grevious sin of infedility.

 

Are you being devil's advocate here or can you genuinely not see a difference? And not that I need state it surely, but I am no defender of Christianity any way, shape, or form. It's definitely a more tolerant faith though, which is reflected in the cultural values of the countries it has been adopted in.

[Happy Face 29]

I don't think it's so much to do with Islam not absorbing criticism as well as Christianity, even though that could well be the case at this moment; instead I would point to the radical Islamists who promulgate a narrative of Islam - and a perversion of it - that says the West is the enemy and oppressor of all Muslims and actively encourage the destruction of free enlightened societies by violent means, the ultimate goal being the reestablishment of a Caliphate.

With that in mind I would ask HappyFace what he thinks these swathes of Muslim protesters would think in regard to Islamic terrorism and if he is worried by that? He seems to hold the view that Islamic terrorism is somehow justified by legitimate grievances at the hands of past/current governments in the west, and that it is not a serious problem (or that perhaps it wasn't until the West incited terrorism through its actions). In the wake of 9/11, I wonder what course of action, if any, HappyFace deemed appropriate?

 

I've never said any terrorism is justified. But people ignore the reasons for it.

 

Let's not forget the discrepancy here.

 

The US collectively has lost it's shit just because a muslim group would like to practice their religion. Protests have been strong and effective, in terms of elected officials supporting the protesters and slagging off the muslims insisting they put an end to their action.

 

Isn't burning the koran a bit more of an insult? More worthy of condemnation?