Then and Now...

[OTF 7583]

Thought that it would be interesting to make a comparison between the squad that we were relegated with, and the team that we have now. Oddly enough I feel in many ways that we're in a better position than we were then. Remember at the start of the 2008/09 season everything was looking good after we picked up a point at Old Trafford. Sure we were ultimately relegated, but that did seemed less than an extremely remote possibility at the start of the season. The contributing factors to that relegation extended well past the players, though certainly a decent amount of the blame can be sent in their direction.

 

Goal Keepers

We started the 2008/09 Season with Shay Given in goal. Undoubtedly an exceptional goalkeeper that to his great shot stopping. Some may question his distribution and ability in the air. Certainly though he's alround a better keeper than Steve Harper, who has been a good shot stopper, but lacks composure and has had a shaky start to this season. In the reserve stakes we have Krul and Forster, both of whom were around then and now. In that time they have of course improved, with many supporters feeling that Krul whould be given a chance to prove himself.

Then: Shay Given (until January), Steve Harper, Tim Krul, Fraser Forster

Now: Steve Harper, Tim Krul, Fraser Forster

 

Winner: Then (with Shay), even without.

 

Defenders

Three defenders stood out in 2008-09 - Sebastian Bassong, Habib Beye and Jose Enrique. Beye unfortunately missed a crucial period of the season with injury (played 22 games). Bassong started the season in obscurity but due to an injury to Steven Taylor quickly found himself in the first 11, where his pace allowed him to excel alongside the more fancied Coloccini. Coloccini despite a solid start to the season really dropped away horribly. His confidence seemingly shattered he was a mere shadow of the player that he threatened to be. Despite this the Argentine started 34 Premier League games for us, testament to our lack of depth at the back. When Taylor returned from injury he played a mix of central defense and right back covering for the then injured Beye.

 

Steven Taylor, Fabricio Coloccini and Jose Enrique remain. Sebastian Bassong was sold for what now appears to have been an excellent price (£8m). Habib Beye was also sold (£2m). Cacapa was thankfully released. Fringe player David Edgar was sold for an amount in line with his exeprience. In their place we have added Mike Williamson, Sol Campbell, Danny Simpson and James Perch. It's an odd mix of experience and youth. Despite our weakness at right back I feel our defense is now a little stronger (and certainly has more depth). Enrique has improved as a player, and Mike Williamson looks to be a solid aquisition.

 

Then: Steven Taylor, Fabricio Coloccini, Sebastian Bassong, Claudio Cacapa, Habib Beye, Jose Enrique, Ryan Taylor (after Jan), David Edgar, Tamas Kadar

Now: Steven Taylor, Fabricio Coloccini, Sol Campbell, Mike Williamson, Jose Enrique, James Perch, Danny Simpson, Ryan Taylor, Tamas Kadar

 

Winner: Now (largely due to depth).

 

Midfielders

Our midfield really let us down in 2008/09 with a combination of injuries and a persistance of playing the likes of Nicky Butt. There was no doubt some talented players there with N'Zogbia and Duff, but neither of them had a good season with Duff looking tired and N'Zogbia far from consistent. The Frenchman was sold partway through the season, with £6m and Ryan Taylor going the other way. Nolan also arrived in January, but despite his age looked slow and past it picking up more red cards than goals (it only took 1 red - rightfully given for a horrible challenge on Anichebe). Barton barely featured courtesy of multiple long term injuries.

 

Our current midfield looks superior in virtually all positions. A return from injury for Barton looks to be going well, with the midfielder already contributing both scoring, and assist wise. New signings Tiote and the heralded Ben Arfa look to add more movement and skill. Guthrie has improved as a player, and Routledge adds pace that was sorely missing from our then side. Dan Gosling could prove to be a good pickup, though we'll need to wait till 2011 to see him on the pitch.

 

Then: Nicky Butt, Danny Guthrie, Damien Duff, Kevin Nolan (after Jan), Joey Barton, Charles N'Zogbia, Jonas Gutierrez, Geremi, Alan Smith

Now: Danny Guthrie, Kevin Nolan, Cheick Tiote, Jonas Gutierrez, Joey Barton, Wayne Routledge, Hatem Ben Arfa, Dan Gosling, Haris Vuckic, Alan Smith

 

Winner: Now

 

Forwards

Talent and experience wise up front should arguably have been our strongest area in 2008/09. In practice it proved to be anything but, with injuries and poor form contributing to an underachieving frontline. Mark Viduka managed just 6 league starts (with 6 further appearances from the bench). The inconsistent Martins started 21 matches with 3 from the bench. Michael Owen, a shadow of his former self, played 28 times, 7 of them from the bench. Later in the season he was deployed in a deep lying midfield position. Owen and Martins were our leading scorers with 8 goals each.

 

In our now side our key forward is Andy Carroll, a player who was a scorer in our then side. Since then he has improved quite markedly and hopefully will continue to do so. Outside him though, the ability drops off considerably. Lovenkrands could be a handy player off Carroll, but take away our number 9 and we're looking at Shola Ameobi starting.

 

Then: Obafemi Martins, Michael Owen, Mark Viduka, Shola Ameobi, Andy Carroll, Xisco, Peter Lovenkrands (after Jan),

Now: Andy Carroll, Peter Lovenkrands, Shola Ameobi, Leon Best, Xisco, Nile Ranger

Winner: Then (if Carroll stays fit/available it would be close).

 

Agree/Disagree?

[Dr Gloom 22200]

On paper the side that went down looks better than our current outfit. But we're playing with a spirit and unity we didn't have then which could make a massive difference come the end of the season

[sammynb 3530]

I'm looking forward to seeing the Steele and I'll 'ave a 'arf but to make judgement before they have even kicked a ball for us is ridiculous.

Same with fishface and Gosling.

If we stay up then they will have proven to be a better squad, all postcards to be dated post May 2011.

[JawD 99]

I mostly agree with the comments but there is one critical position which I think led to our relegation.

 

Manager.

 

The reason imo that we went down was not due to players but the mismanagement of the club as a whole. Morale was rock bottom and we had multiple so called managers with different idea's and approaches. No wonder the side didnt know what they were doing and in the end it was like every man for himself.

 

This alone make now the winner over then as we have a side all pulling in the same direction focussed on the job in hand.

[OTF 7583]

Of course this would be better served at the close of the season, but unfortunately my Deloreon is getting its timing belt changed.

 

On paper our 2008/09 team was better in some areas (right back, striking options) but weaker in the key area of midfield. That's before you look at how things actually went throughout the season. Even still I couldn't resist commenting on the performance of the players in 2008/09.

 

Something that did strike me as noteable out of this whole excercise is that with any sort of decent investment we would have a squad that easily eclipses the one we went into the 2008/09 season with. When I say decent investment I'm talking only half of the funds raised from the many outgoing players from 2008-2009 - Milner (£12m), Given (£5.7m), Beye (£2.5m), Martins (£9m), Bassong (£8m), N'Zogbia (£6m), Duff (£4m) = £47.2m. That's before you consider the massive wage savings of our current squad compared to the 2008/09 one. Owen, Viduka, Martins, Geremi, Butt, Duff and Given were no doubt on very high wages. Milner would have been on a tidy packet, likewise N'Zogbia and Beye.

 

Edit - Agree there JawD, but was talking specifically about the playing rosters here. With a relatively even squad our expectations going into the season have been set somewhat lower than going into the 2008/09 season.

Edited September 3, 2010 by OzToonFan

[Asprilla 96]

A lack of team spirit has cost us dearly for several years now. Having some joker turn up in a helicopter and then fuck off to feed his horses earning 5 or 10 times more than you can't help.

 

The team spirit is what gives me optimism for this season. Seeing players genuinely congratulating whoever scores tells a story. I remember times when it barely seemed to register. However it's come about, I always fancy us not to drop our heads if we go behind and that's due to getting rid of the prima donnas (although time will tell if we've just signed another one!) and having a manager who can work within the parameters that Ashley is imposing.

[ChezGiven 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

[Dr Gloom 22200]

A lack of team spirit has cost us dearly for several years now. Having some joker turn up in a helicopter and then fuck off to feed his horses earning 5 or 10 times more than you can't help.

 

The team spirit is what gives me optimism for this season. Seeing players genuinely congratulating whoever scores tells a story. I remember times when it barely seemed to register. However it's come about, I always fancy us not to drop our heads if we go behind and that's due to getting rid of the prima donnas (although time will tell if we've just signed another one!) and having a manager who can work within the parameters that Ashley is imposing.

 

yeah, i'm loving the pile-ons after goals go in. looks like they genuionely enjoy playing for each other.

 

that in itself presents a worry though. hopefully the spirit won't be disrupted when the inevitable happens and we're forced to drop the likes of smith and nolan for better players - it seems those two had a lot to do with fostering this new togetherness among the players.

[harrynufc 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

Good point, but thats what scares me about this season. Imagine carrol and jose enrique get injured next game, we'l end up with a worse team on paper than last season.

 

Also, it wasnt just the forwards that were better that season, so was our defense. I'd have bassong and beye for campbell/perch any day.

[shackbleep 0]

Can't disagree with much of the OP and think it massively highlights that our issue is with attack. This has to be addressed in January IMO.

 

Agree with JawD's sentiments too. The reason we went down was due to the players having no management what-so-ever. For that I blame the two dickheads at the top.

[ChezGiven 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

Good point, but thats what scares me about this season. Imagine carrol and jose enrique get injured next game, we'l end up with a worse team on paper than last season.

 

Also, it wasnt just the forwards that were better that season, so was our defense. I'd have bassong and beye for campbell/perch any day.

 

Not sure the defence is worse now.

[harrynufc 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

Good point, but thats what scares me about this season. Imagine carrol and jose enrique get injured next game, we'l end up with a worse team on paper than last season.

 

Also, it wasnt just the forwards that were better that season, so was our defense. I'd have bassong and beye for campbell/perch any day.

 

Not sure the defence is worse now.

 

Youre thinking that way because we went down that season. Imagine collocini of now plays like collocini in 08/09 and this defense has to perform under the same shenanigans of that season. On paper theres no doubt, imo, that 08/09 defense was better. There was a reason beye was voted player of the season for us and bassong sold for 8 million.

 

One more thing, your midfield and strikers playing well is crucial for a successful defense. Both of whom were poor in the season we went down and a key contributor to why our defense was always under so much pressure.

[ChezGiven 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

Good point, but thats what scares me about this season. Imagine carrol and jose enrique get injured next game, we'l end up with a worse team on paper than last season.

 

Also, it wasnt just the forwards that were better that season, so was our defense. I'd have bassong and beye for campbell/perch any day.

 

Not sure the defence is worse now.

 

Youre thinking that way because we went down that season. Imagine collocini of now plays like collocini in 08/09 and this defense has to perform under the same shenanigans of that season. On paper theres no doubt, imo, that 08/09 defense was better. There was a reason beye was voted player of the season for us and bassong sold for 8 million.

 

One more thing, your midfield and strikers playing well is crucial for a successful defense. Both of whom were poor in the season we went down and a key contributor to why our defense was always under so much pressure.

 

This season we have the fewest shots on target against us in the whole league so far. I think there is a cohesiveness about the defence this season that wasnt there in the relegation season. Not down to the individual player's abilities but the organisation and management of the club.

[OTF 7583]

We mugged the Spurs with the sale of Bassong BTW. He's been ordinary for them. He looked better than he actually was for us simply because he's a vastly superior athlete compared to Coloccini and Taylor who he was playing alongside. I'm not saying he's bad but he definitely has a lot to learn. He has a very nasty habit of using his arms when defending, which can be very costly - remember when Heskey (I think) made him look like a complete mug? Was sent off rightfully so. I'm hopeful that Sol will be superior to Bassong for this season. If not Williamson I think is a better reader of the game, but lacks the pace and power of Bassong.

 

Coutesy of Beye though they were technically a better set of players on paper. In practice Enrique wasn't as assured and attack minded as he is now and Coloccini's confidence was shot midway though the season and continued to get worse.

 

Depth wise we're certainly better off with four central defenders who should be comfortable starting in the league. In addition Kadar has developed nicely. Right back is certainly a pain point. I don't care how much better Perch has looked in the last two games when he commits a foul in the box like he did against Wolves. Thankfully the ref missed that because I doubt we'd have got anything from 2-0 down.

Edited September 3, 2010 by OzToonFan

[Holden McGroin 6802]

Its clear that Owen was finished in his last year for us as well.

[LeazesMag 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

yes, is it a co-incidence that the only period Owen and Viduka stayed fit and turned in a few consistent performances was when Keegan was manager ?

 

We were still close to having a decent team at this time.

 

As for the defence, Beye, Bassong and Given would walk straight into the current team.

 

Bad team spirit and player sales is what relegated us though.

[ChezGiven 0]

Not much use comparing the squads imo, go to individual match reports and compare the starting 11s. The Midfield consisted of Butt, Geremi, Duff and Guthrie for some games.

 

Only the forward line is better on paper but in reality they were shitheads.

 

yes, is it a co-incidence that the only period Owen and Viduka stayed fit and turned in a few consistent performances was when Keegan was manager ?

 

We were still close to having a decent team at this time.

 

As for the defence, Beye, Bassong and Given would walk straight into the current team.

 

Bad team spirit and player sales is what relegated us though.

 

Indeed and bad organisational leadership of the club, 4 managers in one season being another key one.

 

If we still had Beye and Bassong today am not sure they would walk into the team, yes Bassong was a great CB but i dont see Williamson that far behinf him. Beye is finished now too imo.

[Tom 14021]

muthafuckas act like they forgot about Beye

[manc-mag 1]

muthafuckas act like they forgot about Beye

 

[Guest alex]

Word, T-Dogg.

[acrossthepond 878]

It was all about Kinnear for me. If we'd appointed pretty much any other manager, we'd have stayed up. Curbishley, Zico and Fatih Terim (and others I think) all publicly said they wanted the job. Any of them on a contract until the end of the season could've done it as we really were too good to go down. But Kinnear's time in charge did irreparable damage to the morale and organisation of the side and there was no way back.

[JawD 99]

It was all about Kinnear for me. If we'd appointed pretty much any other manager, we'd have stayed up. Curbishley, Zico and Fatih Terim (and others I think) all publicly said they wanted the job. Any of them on a contract until the end of the season could've done it as we really were too good to go down. But Kinnear's time in charge did irreparable damage to the morale and organisation of the side and there was no way back.

 

And it was unbelievable that throughout JFK was banging on about how well he was doing

[shackbleep 0]

Speaking of Habib Beye....

 

Hull to launch loan bid for Villa defender

 

Hull are ready to revive their interest in Aston Villa outcast Habib Beye by making a loan bid next week.

 

Beye has struggled to impress this season after being given one last chance to resurrect his Villa career.

 

The Senegalese defender was part of the Villa side that let in six against Newcastle and he was also at fault for at least one of the Rapid Vienna goals in their disappointing Europa League exit.

 

Hull thought they had landed Beye from Newcastle back in 2009 but he changed his mind at the 11th hour and joined Villa.

 

The 32-year-old had been given another opportunity to prove himself but Villa Park insiders have told talkSPORT the defender will be allowed to leave on loan - and with the Football League loan window opening next Tuesday, Hull are ready to make a move.

 

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/foo...-villa-defender

[ChezGiven 0]

Rather have Perch today. I reckon Cattermole finished him.

[Asprilla 96]

From what little I've seen of Williamson he's the real deal too. Calm on the ball like Woodgate was.