Budget will cost 1.3m jobs - Treasury

[AgentAxeman 174]

twas only yanking yer chain NJS. so you mean we revert to tribalism during wartime? not certain how that could be classed as the human race all standing together. oh, and also during the blitz the amount of crime rocketed (looting, black market activities). it just wasnt reported for propaganda reasons.

 

 

 

Not the whole race together - I just expect notional communities to care about each other at some level. One of the "successes" of Thatcherism was to engender the attitude among the well-off/southerner's that the pain in the other parts of the country didn't matter to them. I realise there has always been elements of that but I genuinely think that without necessarily day to day contact, there was more of a shared community spirit in this country - certainly during the war as I mentioned. Of course at any time there will be scum around but I'm talking in general terms here.

 

This is probably why I support devolved/regional government - in a way its a recognition that the country is too large a community for a ahared basis and the only realistic way to have people with commonality thive is on a smaller scale.

 

 

Im not certain that i agree with the whole devolved gov idea, at least not on the scale of the welsh and scottish assemblies which quite frankly seems to me to be another layer of beaurocracy for its own sake (probably an EU inspired idea).

 

However, i do think it would be a good idea to devolve more powers to local councils to allow them to respond more rapidly to local issues.

[Rob W 0]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

 

 

The early 80's were a bit tight but i'd hardly call it "Bread line". The latter half of the 80's I thought were quite affluent.

 

 

exactly

[ChezGiven 0]

The situation is awful. I can not believe that the reasoning for all this is a hypothetical threat of bond market vigilantes, who currently dont exist and who are prepared to lend at some of the lowest rates in history.

 

As Krugman noted the other day, the only feasible explanation for the hypocrisy, inconsistency of economic argument and short-sightedness is that this (deficit reduction) is truly just a pretense for dismantling social infrastructures. Nothing else makes any sense.

 

The biggest side-splitting joke of this whole situation is the economic policy of the fastest growing economy on the planet is based on the principles which the G20 rejects out of hand. Madness.

[Renton 21393]

The situation is awful. I can not believe that the reasoning for all this is a hypothetical threat of bond market vigilantes, who currently dont exist and who are prepared to lend at some of the lowest rates in history.

 

As Krugman noted the other day, the only feasible explanation for the hypocrisy, inconsistency of economic argument and short-sightedness is that this (deficit reduction) is truly just a pretense for dismantling social infrastructures. Nothing else makes any sense.

 

The biggest side-splitting joke of this whole situation is the economic policy of the fastest growing economy on the planet is based on the principles which the G20 rejects out of hand. Madness.

 

Which economy is that Chez?

[NJS 4375]

As Krugman noted the other day, the only feasible explanation for the hypocrisy, inconsistency of economic argument and short-sightedness is that this (deficit reduction) is truly just a pretense for dismantling social infrastructures. Nothing else makes any sense.

 

I have no doubt that opportunistic idealism plays a very large part in the eagerness for instant cuts from the Tories.

[Park Life 71]

High fundamental soverign borrowing has only postponed the inevitable, the slow decline and collapse of Westen markets. German alone in the whole of Eruope has a trade surplus (still not creating enough jobs).

[Percy Street 0]

Nobody disputes the need for spending cuts as such. Pragmatic cuts done gradually and reluctantly would be a neccessary evil we could all wrap our heads around. However, the Tories are intent on taking a fire axe to the public sector and see the recession as the ideal political cover under which to do so.

 

In amongst all the blether everywhere a couple of weks ago I read a perfect weary summing up - apologies I forget where. "This economic crisis wasn't caused by Dustman's pensions in Leeds". Quite. It was caused by greed and incompetence in the global banking system - which is why nearly all the main economies are up shit creek to one degree or another.

 

We can put up VAT but not income tax, why? Because we have a Tory Government that favours regressive taxes (VAT hits rich and poor with very unequal force) whereas as progressive hikes like income tax would relatively speaking spare the poor and make the better off pay. And why can't the banks who caused the mess tip up more?

 

There was plenty wrong with the last Labour government but as many of us suspected the new Tories are the sons and daughters of Thatcher (you're catching on I don't think that's a good thing) and underneath the cleverer PR they are sadly little better.

[Happy Face 29]

As Krugman noted the other day, the only feasible explanation for the hypocrisy, inconsistency of economic argument and short-sightedness is that this (deficit reduction) is truly just a pretense for dismantling social infrastructures. Nothing else makes any sense.

 

I have no doubt that opportunistic idealism plays a very large part in the eagerness for instant cuts from the Tories.

 

I work on new IT for the DWP, we're in the middle of several upgrades that should save lot's of money in 2 or 3 years. They're already being put on hold one by one until the comprehensive spending review completes in Sept/Oct. It's saving a little bit of money on this years budget, and maybe next, but if they're canned altogether it only serves to ensure there's no savings to be had in the long term future, once you've cut all new projects there's nothing left to cut, all you have is the original expensive systems going back to the eighties that we were justifiably investing capital in streamlining for long term savings.

 

Can you imagine any business nowadays still using pre windows applications without a mouse? It makes me wonder what they thought these projects initially got the green light for. It wasn't because being able to use a mouse is more fun. They really are cheaper/easier/require less training than keyboard only applications.

 

Cost effectiveness always takes a back seat to political motivation.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Happy Face

[NJS 4375]

Can you imagine any business nowadays still using pre windows applications without a mouse?

 

Our back end accounting system which is used by hundreds of banks is only just about to be replaced with the latest version which has a web page front end

 

(Though your point is valid)

[Happy Face 29]

Some legacy sytstems still use punched cards.

 

Edited July 9, 2010 by Happy Face

[Rob W 0]

the problem is that the Public sector just doesn't seem to realise that cuts mean cuts

 

when the brown stuff hits the fan and jobs are lost in car factories, call centres, shops and even banks it happens

 

but the public sector always claim they are esssential and should be saved - and who pays for them - the poor sods in the private sector that's who

[Dr Gloom 21847]

Nobody disputes the need for spending cuts as such. Pragmatic cuts done gradually and reluctantly would be a neccessary evil we could all wrap our heads around. However, the Tories are intent on taking a fire axe to the public sector and see the recession as the ideal political cover under which to do so.

 

In amongst all the blether everywhere a couple of weks ago I read a perfect weary summing up - apologies I forget where. "This economic crisis wasn't caused by Dustman's pensions in Leeds". Quite. It was caused by greed and incompetence in the global banking system - which is why nearly all the main economies are up shit creek to one degree or another.

 

We can put up VAT but not income tax, why? Because we have a Tory Government that favours regressive taxes (VAT hits rich and poor with very unequal force) whereas as progressive hikes like income tax would relatively speaking spare the poor and make the better off pay. And why can't the banks who caused the mess tip up more?

 

There was plenty wrong with the last Labour government but as many of us suspected the new Tories are the sons and daughters of Thatcher (you're catching on I don't think that's a good thing) and underneath the cleverer PR they are sadly little better.

 

agreed. the cuts, i think, have come hard and fast while the coalition is still in the honeymoon period. cameron was quite clever there - politically, he didn't want to still be cutting hard before the next election. typical tory cuts though, the poor suffering through the VAT rise.

 

i hoped the libdems would be able to exert more influence here. it was galling to hear danny alexander defending cuts they radically opposed just a few weeks ago. they really have sold their soul for power. i thought it might lead to a more progressive coalition government but the the emergency budget really shows that most politicians are the same - they've no principles and they sell out as soon as they get into power.

 

it's exactly the same with them giving ground to the tories over the trident nuclear weapons policy. labour under blair were exactly the same. i felt ashamed after i voted for blair and he followed bush into iraq. i feel just as disappointed with the lib dems now. i voted for them partly to protest over labour's failings but also for their social policies and the fact that they opposed spending billions on nuclear weapons we don't need when we've a record budget deficit to cut and they've let me down on both counts.

[PaddockLad 17124]

High fundamental soverign borrowing has only postponed the inevitable, the slow decline and collapse of Westen markets. German alone in the whole of Eruope has a trade surplus (still not creating enough jobs).

 

Is that another way of saying the industrial base in Western Europe is virtually redundant now after a near 40 year illness due to the far east being able to do things cheaper?

 

Thousands of communites have lost their reasons to exist in that time, for an example most of us just need to look out of the window.

 

The tories are complete cunts, but it looks like they're just putting the country out of its misery and unless you work in Asda or Tescos (are these two the only companies that make a profit?) you're frankly fucked.

 

I think I'm going to go to Canada....who are the Newcastle United of the ice hockey league?

[ChezGiven 0]

The situation is awful. I can not believe that the reasoning for all this is a hypothetical threat of bond market vigilantes, who currently dont exist and who are prepared to lend at some of the lowest rates in history.

 

As Krugman noted the other day, the only feasible explanation for the hypocrisy, inconsistency of economic argument and short-sightedness is that this (deficit reduction) is truly just a pretense for dismantling social infrastructures. Nothing else makes any sense.

 

The biggest side-splitting joke of this whole situation is the economic policy of the fastest growing economy on the planet is based on the principles which the G20 rejects out of hand. Madness.

 

Which economy is that Chez?

 

China. There is a Keynesian engine at the heart of their economy.

 

http://www.chinabusinessreview.com/public/0903/cmi.html

 

They have decades of planning experience, so a fiscal stimulus is actually targeted to specific industries and social services, much like a market would allocate the resources (against high 'return' projects). Its called State capitalism and its what is called for in the Uk.

 

China doesnt have debt of course but they dont believe in monetarism thats for sure.

[sniffer 0]

China.

 

Now there's a country that I'm sure we'd all like to live in.

[Percy Street 0]

Nobody disputes the need for spending cuts as such. Pragmatic cuts done gradually and reluctantly would be a neccessary evil we could all wrap our heads around. However, the Tories are intent on taking a fire axe to the public sector and see the recession as the ideal political cover under which to do so.

 

In amongst all the blether everywhere a couple of weks ago I read a perfect weary summing up - apologies I forget where. "This economic crisis wasn't caused by Dustman's pensions in Leeds". Quite. It was caused by greed and incompetence in the global banking system - which is why nearly all the main economies are up shit creek to one degree or another.

 

We can put up VAT but not income tax, why? Because we have a Tory Government that favours regressive taxes (VAT hits rich and poor with very unequal force) whereas as progressive hikes like income tax would relatively speaking spare the poor and make the better off pay. And why can't the banks who caused the mess tip up more?

 

There was plenty wrong with the last Labour government but as many of us suspected the new Tories are the sons and daughters of Thatcher (you're catching on I don't think that's a good thing) and underneath the cleverer PR they are sadly little better.

 

 

 

 

I think a lot of Labour voters would agree with most of that post. The single biggest thing that pulls the rug from any attempted Labour march to the moral high ground in recent years is Blair's shameful sucking up to the utterly awful Bush and the equally awful decision to go to war in Iraq. I think many people rightly had a lot of time for the Lib Dems but now................still I suspect a lot of good people in their party as a whole. However, the leadership have sold their souls for power and I wouldn't be at all be surprised to see the Lib Dems take an absolute kicking in the next local elections just as the cuts are biting. And then watch the coalition start to crack big time...............

 

agreed. the cuts, i think, have come hard and fast while the coalition is still in the honeymoon period. cameron was quite clever there - politically, he didn't want to still be cutting hard before the next election. typical tory cuts though, the poor suffering through the VAT rise.

 

i hoped the libdems would be able to exert more influence here. it was galling to hear danny alexander defending cuts they radically opposed just a few weeks ago. they really have sold their soul for power. i thought it might lead to a more progressive coalition government but the the emergency budget really shows that most politicians are the same - they've no principles and they sell out as soon as they get into power.

 

it's exactly the same with them giving ground to the tories over the trident nuclear weapons policy. labour under blair were exactly the same. i felt ashamed after i voted for blair and he followed bush into iraq. i feel just as disappointed with the lib dems now. i voted for them partly to protest over labour's failings but also for their social policies and the fact that they opposed spending billions on nuclear weapons we don't need when we've a record budget deficit to cut and they've let me down on both counts.

[Percy Street 0]

Nobody disputes the need for spending cuts as such. Pragmatic cuts done gradually and reluctantly would be a neccessary evil we could all wrap our heads around. However, the Tories are intent on taking a fire axe to the public sector and see the recession as the ideal political cover under which to do so.

 

In amongst all the blether everywhere a couple of weks ago I read a perfect weary summing up - apologies I forget where. "This economic crisis wasn't caused by Dustman's pensions in Leeds". Quite. It was caused by greed and incompetence in the global banking system - which is why nearly all the main economies are up shit creek to one degree or another.

 

We can put up VAT but not income tax, why? Because we have a Tory Government that favours regressive taxes (VAT hits rich and poor with very unequal force) whereas as progressive hikes like income tax would relatively speaking spare the poor and make the better off pay. And why can't the banks who caused the mess tip up more?

 

There was plenty wrong with the last Labour government but as many of us suspected the new Tories are the sons and daughters of Thatcher (you're catching on I don't think that's a good thing) and underneath the cleverer PR they are sadly little better.

 

agreed. the cuts, i think, have come hard and fast while the coalition is still in the honeymoon period. cameron was quite clever there - politically, he didn't want to still be cutting hard before the next election. typical tory cuts though, the poor suffering through the VAT rise.

 

i hoped the libdems would be able to exert more influence here. it was galling to hear danny alexander defending cuts they radically opposed just a few weeks ago. they really have sold their soul for power. i thought it might lead to a more progressive coalition government but the the emergency budget really shows that most politicians are the same - they've no principles and they sell out as soon as they get into power.

 

it's exactly the same with them giving ground to the tories over the trident nuclear weapons policy. labour under blair were exactly the same. i felt ashamed after i voted for blair and he followed bush into iraq. i feel just as disappointed with the lib dems now. i voted for them partly to protest over labour's failings but also for their social policies and the fact that they opposed spending billions on nuclear weapons we don't need when we've a record budget deficit to cut and they've let me down on both counts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think a lot of Labour voters would agree with most of that post. The single biggest thing that pulls the rug from any attempted Labour march to the moral high ground in recent years is Blair's shameful sucking up to the utterly awful Bush and the equally awful decision to go to war in Iraq. I think many people rightly had a lot of time for the Lib Dems but now................still I suspect a lot of good people in their party as a whole. However, the leadership have sold their souls for power and I wouldn't be at all be surprised to see the Lib Dems take an absolute kicking in the next local elections just as the cuts are biting. And then watch the coalition start to crack big time...............

[Percy Street 0]

the problem is that the Public sector just doesn't seem to realise that cuts mean cuts

 

when the brown stuff hits the fan and jobs are lost in car factories, call centres, shops and even banks it happens

 

but the public sector always claim they are esssential and should be saved - and who pays for them - the poor sods in the private sector that's who

 

 

 

I think public sector workers understand what cuts and job losses are funnily enough. Where do you imagine we come from? Add to that many of the greatest challenges posed to the public sector arise from areas of ingrained economic hardship / low aspirations - high crime, poor health, negative attitude to schools, etc.

 

As I said earlier I understand the need for cuts but the Tories are loving this while crying crocodile tears. The bit that really kills me is that too many people just say "cut the public sector this or that" without thinking of the knock on. The cancelling of many school building contracts is going to hammer the construction industry. And where do people imagine that public sector workers (doing whatever) spend their wages? On one of Jupiter's moons?! No all across the private sector of course - hammer the public sector - and the Tories have started doing just that - and it's going to screw many private sector jobs as well.

[NJS 4375]

Even without the job losses caused by the actual cuts, I think the stupidest idea is that 2.5 million jobs will be created in the private sector given the impact the cuts will have it on as well. I sometimes think the Tories genuinely believe that everybody no matter what their background are entrepreneurs who want their own business at heart - a complete misreading of human nature.

[Park Life 71]

High fundamental soverign borrowing has only postponed the inevitable, the slow decline and collapse of Westen markets. German alone in the whole of Eruope has a trade surplus (still not creating enough jobs).

 

Is that another way of saying the industrial base in Western Europe is virtually redundant now after a near 40 year illness due to the far east being able to do things cheaper?

 

Thousands of communites have lost their reasons to exist in that time, for an example most of us just need to look out of the window.

 

The tories are complete cunts, but it looks like they're just putting the country out of its misery and unless you work in Asda or Tescos (are these two the only companies that make a profit?) you're frankly fucked.

 

I think I'm going to go to Canada....who are the Newcastle United of the ice hockey league?

 

There's not much single Govt can do about it. The planet has been raped and someone has nicked all the cash.

[Park Life 71]

Even without the job losses caused by the actual cuts, I think the stupidest idea is that 2.5 million jobs will be created in the private sector given the impact the cuts will have it on as well. I sometimes think the Tories genuinely believe that everybody no matter what their background are entrepreneurs who want their own business at heart - a complete misreading of human nature.

 

This stuff is just spiel for public consumption. Normal people are set up to take the hits during the swing tides of the markets, while Canada for instance just spent 1 Billion dollars on hosting the G8 and G20 meets, inc creating a fake lake and log cabin for journalists. When there is a crisis and we're all meant to be cutting back and making savings etc blah blah...It never seems to effect the ruling class.

[Renton 21393]

the problem is that the Public sector just doesn't seem to realise that cuts mean cuts

 

when the brown stuff hits the fan and jobs are lost in car factories, call centres, shops and even banks it happens

 

but the public sector always claim they are esssential and should be saved - and who pays for them - the poor sods in the private sector that's who

 

 

 

I think public sector workers understand what cuts and job losses are funnily enough. Where do you imagine we come from? Add to that many of the greatest challenges posed to the public sector arise from areas of ingrained economic hardship / low aspirations - high crime, poor health, negative attitude to schools, etc.

 

As I said earlier I understand the need for cuts but the Tories are loving this while crying crocodile tears. The bit that really kills me is that too many people just say "cut the public sector this or that" without thinking of the knock on. The cancelling of many school building contracts is going to hammer the construction industry. And where do people imagine that public sector workers (doing whatever) spend their wages? On one of Jupiter's moons?! No all across the private sector of course - hammer the public sector - and the Tories have started doing just that - and it's going to screw many private sector jobs as well.

 

Agree entirely. Perhaps some of the smug private sector workers, like Rob here, should reflect on this as they themselves lose their jobs.

[peasepud 59]

the problem is that the Public sector just doesn't seem to realise that cuts mean cuts

 

when the brown stuff hits the fan and jobs are lost in car factories, call centres, shops and even banks it happens

 

but the public sector always claim they are esssential and should be saved - and who pays for them - the poor sods in the private sector that's who

 

Oh no you're right I mean who needs a Public sector anyway?

 

Theyre only the people who empty your bins or ensure you have streets clean enough to walk in but we can do without that, nothing to stop you delivering your own rubbish to the dump and having a bit of a clean up once a week outside the house.

 

We can get rid of libraries eh after all kids dont need to read, swimming pools? sports centres? pah they're not important for health after all you can swim in the lakes and rivers (just as long as you dont need to be rescued of course).

 

All those flights you take Rob, who do you think controls the skies and more importantly ensures that lunatics dont slit your throat when you run out of ice for their drink?

 

Think the country is overrun by immigrants now? just wait until theres no Border Patrol or Immigration service. The thought of all those immigrants running round giving you a heart attack? Lets hope not mate after all you dont want to be driving yourself to hospital with the smell of almonds wafting through your nostrils.....oh wait hospital yeah, better get on the phone while driving there to organise a loan to pay for your care.

 

Got a nice view from your house? Just wait until theres no planning rules and Tesco build a superstore outside your front door or they decide to run a motorway through your back garden.

 

Still, you wont have to worry about that should you accidentally drop a match or forget you've left the chip pan on, its difficult to put out a house fire with a bucket of water.

 

Sometimes they may get it wrong and shoot an innocent bloke on the tube but lets see a country without a police force eh?

 

Once you've got rid of all those then theres no reason for HMRC and we can all live tax free eh, what a happy day.

 

The simple fact of life is that you'll be hard pushed to find a private sector job that is essential to the running of this country yet almost every Public Sector job brings something either to people lives or for the good of the country overall.

 

As Percy Street said, the loss of these jobs and reductions in budgets has a major knock on effect across the Private sector.

 

Decimating travel budgets may seem like a a good thing but it in turn has a knock on effect to local business. Id estimate that there must be at least 30 or 40 taxi rides taken in Newcastle by HMRC staff each day to/ from airport and train station. Over the last few years these journeys have been rightly whittled down to the essential trips only. Video conferencing and the like have replaced non essential trips. SO these 40% cuts are going to have to come from essential trips.

 

So what we have now is 40% less essential work being completed and a reduction in the amount of money being made by local taxi firms, bus companies, shops, restaurants, hotels etc.

 

Cutting the Public Service cuts everyone else in one way or another, be it in the services we receive for our taxes or money made indirectly.

[Rob W 0]

I'm not saying that at all - its the total NUMBER that's the problem

 

Councils stuffed with "Diversity Managers" and the like

 

and as for

 

"The simple fact of life is that you'll be hard pushed to find a private sector job that is essential to the running of this country yet almost every Public Sector job brings something either to people lives or for the good of the country overall"

 

Who the hell makes the money to pay for them aall man? Its Rolls Royce, it's the bankers, it's Dyson, its Nissan -The Public Sector doesn't exist in a vacume - it has to be paid for by someone

[Lazarus 0]

I'm not saying that at all - its the total NUMBER that's the problem

 

Councils stuffed with "Diversity Managers" and the like

 

and as for

 

"The simple fact of life is that you'll be hard pushed to find a private sector job that is essential to the running of this country yet almost every Public Sector job brings something either to people lives or for the good of the country overall"

 

Who the hell makes the money to pay for them aall man? Its Rolls Royce, it's the bankers, it's Dyson, its Nissan -The Public Sector doesn't exist in a vacume - it has to be paid for by someone

 

public sector workers pay tax too you know

 

and pud - that was a MASSIVE chomp.