Budget will cost 1.3m jobs - Treasury

[ChezGiven 0]

Social services, the NHS, etc etc are so top heavy with middle/upper management it's untrue.

 

How do you know this?

 

I started my banking career managing public sector clients and in particular NHS Trusts (heavy deposits to be had) and the level of middle management they had (even at small trusts) was absurd. I was often sat in a meeting with their finance teams and they'd have more managers than you could poke a stick at and often I would have trouble understanding what they actually did. Their non medical pay rolls were often phenomenal and oustripped the medical staff.

Forgive me for not accepting that as evidence that the cost of non-medical management costs outstrips medical labour costs across the NHS. Its blatantly bollocks.

 

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/101...ve_targets.html

 

"Management costs now stand at £1.85bn"

 

Management has to spend the rest of the £120bn of the budget that isnt spent on themselves. I'd say good managers are in short supply.

 

I said payroll not costs. The point I was making is that the level of middle management was too high and there are clear synergies to be made.

 

Too high? How do you know? As a Health Economist, i'd say that to argue management costs are 'too high' you'd need to make a comparison to an equivalent population size, with equivalent healthcare needs and examine whether management costs were higher or lower, for a given level of healthcare outcomes (5 year standardised mortality ratios from e.g. a leading cancer).

 

Then when you examined that statistic, you'd need to make a judgement on how the system is organised (payment mechanims, raising of finance through taxation and social insurance). Then you'd need to say, given the political context and the possibility of reforming the finance mechanisms, how well does the system do in managing its expenditure on administration of the budget (management costs) vis a vis other possible finance mechanisms. I preume that thinking is behind your judgement?

 

As i've already pointed out on here, the NHS finance mechanism splits providers from purchasers who have to contract with each other, monitoring contracts and performance becomes exceptionally labour intensive. The huge investment in NHS Information Technology was designed to reduce the costs of the system. However, without fundamental reform, these costs will continue to exist. Stripping out management costs will merely undermine the ability of the NHS to understand how it spends its money and whether that money is spent appropriately. I'm sure cost-savings can be found, using the principle of opportunity cost. But that principle requires quite a lot of counter-factual information.

 

I have also argued on here that the solution is not found in shifting resources about but in fundamental reform to the NHS.

[spongebob toonpants 4134]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again

 

Chez4Prez

[Geordieracer 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10518917.stm

[NJS 4411]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10518917.stm

 

And. so. fucking. what.

 

If they can hire out facilities and the activity is legal then I don't see a problem - same old twisted Tory sexual morality.

[Guest alex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10518917.stm

 

And. so. fucking. what.

 

If they can hire out facilities and the activity is legal then I don't see a problem - same old twisted Tory sexual morality.

Tory council anyway, surely.

[Kitman 2207]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10518917.stm

 

And. so. fucking. what.

 

If they can hire out facilities and the activity is legal then I don't see a problem - same old twisted Tory sexual morality.

Tory council anyway, surely.

 

Does this mean you're fucked with the Tories and the NHS?

[Geordieracer 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10518917.stm

 

And. so. fucking. what.

 

If they can hire out facilities and the activity is legal then I don't see a problem - same old twisted Tory sexual morality.

 

Calm down lad - it was just an amusing story related to the thread.

 

Mind you I'm sure there may be some health issues

 

[Rob W 0]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

[Geordieracer 0]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

 

If by most people you mean people those in London and the South East

 

Tough times in the north unless you were one of Maggies private army in which case the overtime paid rather well.

[Meenzer 15720]

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

Conclusive proof that Rob spent the decade getting bummed off trolley dollies in Dubai. Quite remarkable.

[AgentAxeman 189]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

 

 

The early 80's were a bit tight but i'd hardly call it "Bread line". The latter half of the 80's I thought were quite affluent.

[peasepud 59]

And so it begins....

 

Government now force through changes n the law to allow them to change employment terms and conditions without fear of reprisal.

 

For years I have taken a lower wage than the equivalent job in the Private sector because I had "job security" and a "good pension". I (and everyone else in the Public Service) accepted tiny negligible pay rises year on year because we knew that it was highly unlikely that we'd be made redundant and should it ever happen then we'd be compensated accordingly in the way our contracts stated.

 

I would never argue that payoffs werent way way better than most in Private sector however now suddenly when redundancy becomes a harsh possibility we're being told that our contracts are worthless and if we go then we'll be getting a fraction of what we're due.

 

Two high court judges have already ruled that its llegal to do it so to get around that the government is simply going to change the law. Whats the use in having employment laws and such if the employer can simply change them when it suits?

[Happy Face 29]

Strikes will save a few bob.

[Renton 22001]

And so it begins....

 

Government now force through changes n the law to allow them to change employment terms and conditions without fear of reprisal.

 

For years I have taken a lower wage than the equivalent job in the Private sector because I had "job security" and a "good pension". I (and everyone else in the Public Service) accepted tiny negligible pay rises year on year because we knew that it was highly unlikely that we'd be made redundant and should it ever happen then we'd be compensated accordingly in the way our contracts stated.

 

I would never argue that payoffs werent way way better than most in Private sector however now suddenly when redundancy becomes a harsh possibility we're being told that our contracts are worthless and if we go then we'll be getting a fraction of what we're due.

 

Two high court judges have already ruled that its llegal to do it so to get around that the government is simply going to change the law. Whats the use in having employment laws and such if the employer can simply change them when it suits?

 

I don't know why we're not hearing more about this disgusting planned legislation in the media. What type of country doesn't honour its contracts to its own government employees? Its like we've become a Banana republic overnight. As usual the low paid will be hardest hit.

 

Beeb.

 

Myths about the civil service

[Kitman 2207]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

 

No, actually a lot of people didn't. Funnily enough it proved quite hard to go from coal mining to dealing securities in the City.

 

iirc 'Bread line Britain' was a TV programme highlighting the general deprivation in the early 90's created by the Tories' policies.

[khay 10]

I'll not add any comments about budgets.

[Guest alex]

Growth slowing already I see. Nice work, George.

[Renton 22001]

I'll not add any comments about budgets.

 

Glad you've paid the leccy bill.

[Kitman 2207]

"the bread line Britain of the 1980's"

 

you ARE joking - aren't you?

 

Most people had a very nice life style in the 80's mate

 

 

The early 80's were a bit tight but i'd hardly call it "Bread line". The latter half of the 80's I thought were quite affluent.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/busi...l/incomegap.stm

[NJS 4411]

It saddens me how genuine concern about the future - or at least the next few years - is manifesting in such a nasty way with the relish some people have for the public sector "getting their comeuppance". I don't think enough people appreciate Pud's point about a genuine choice of lower salaries in return for other benefits and can't see past the pensions etc.

 

In general its one thing I dislike about the human race - when times get tough we should stand together more (and it happens in wartime for example) but in my lifetime all I've seen is people turn nasty - anti-immigration being another facet of this.

[AgentAxeman 189]

It saddens me how genuine concern about the future - or at least the next few years - is manifesting in such a nasty way with the relish some people have for the public sector "getting their comeuppance". I don't think enough people appreciate Pud's point about a genuine choice of lower salaries in return for other benefits and can't see past the pensions etc.

 

In general its one thing I dislike about the human race - when times get tough we should stand together more (and it happens in wartime for example) but in my lifetime all I've seen is people turn nasty - anti-immigration being another facet of this.

 

 

you cant fight human nature bonny lad! we are, after all, only animals.

 

as for your example of all standing together in wartime? do you actually know how nasty wars can be?

[NJS 4411]

you cant fight human nature bonny lad! we are, after all, only animals.

 

as for your example of all standing together in wartime? do you actually know how nasty wars can be?

 

Yes but we only exist as a successful species because of co-operation and forming communities - we've exploded in the last 10-20k years because of it.

 

For wars I meant the way civilian populations came together - the blitz spirit etc.

[Renton 22001]

you cant fight human nature bonny lad! we are, after all, only animals.

 

as for your example of all standing together in wartime? do you actually know how nasty wars can be?

 

Yes but we only exist as a successful species because of co-operation and forming communities - we've exploded in the last 10-20k years because of it.

 

For wars I meant the way civilian populations came together - the blitz spirit etc.

 

The formation of the NHS was a direct result of WWII. WOuld never have happened otherwise.

[AgentAxeman 189]

you cant fight human nature bonny lad! we are, after all, only animals.

 

as for your example of all standing together in wartime? do you actually know how nasty wars can be?

 

Yes but we only exist as a successful species because of co-operation and forming communities - we've exploded in the last 10-20k years because of it.

 

For wars I meant the way civilian populations came together - the blitz spirit etc.

 

 

twas only yanking yer chain NJS. so you mean we revert to tribalism during wartime? not certain how that could be classed as the human race all standing together. oh, and also during the blitz the amount of crime rocketed (looting, black market activities). it just wasnt reported for propaganda reasons.

 

 

[NJS 4411]

twas only yanking yer chain NJS. so you mean we revert to tribalism during wartime? not certain how that could be classed as the human race all standing together. oh, and also during the blitz the amount of crime rocketed (looting, black market activities). it just wasnt reported for propaganda reasons.

 

 

 

Not the whole race together - I just expect notional communities to care about each other at some level. One of the "successes" of Thatcherism was to engender the attitude among the well-off/southerner's that the pain in the other parts of the country didn't matter to them. I realise there has always been elements of that but I genuinely think that without necessarily day to day contact, there was more of a shared community spirit in this country - certainly during the war as I mentioned. Of course at any time there will be scum around but I'm talking in general terms here.

 

This is probably why I support devolved/regional government - in a way its a recognition that the country is too large a community for a ahared basis and the only realistic way to have people with commonality thive is on a smaller scale.