Bloody Sunday

[ewerk 30368]

Easy for me to say with hindsight, but, by keeping the high moral ground, they would have eventually got their fair share as a community in Northern Ireland, if that was their aim. Unfortunately things don't change overnight but they inevitably do, clever media manipulation in a media age will get you pretty far. I don't think it's a coincidence that Apartheid, the fall of Soviet empire, and the Irish peace process all happened within a few years of each other. Peaceful Catholic protesters would have had their voices heard and would have had even more strong support from the USA in my opinion.

 

For those who wanted a United Ireland, by resorting to violence they lost the high moral ground.

 

Also, any fear of the IRA changing their stance and getting back to what they were in the seventies and eighties went to fuck when those planes flew into World Trade centre in my opinion.

 

As you say, it's more of a viable option with hindsight but at the time there was no chance of the government being shamed into doing something by peaceful protest. I'm guessing that the people involved looked at the tactics that worked so well for their southern counterparts and decided to adopt the same tactics in the hope that they would 'finish the job'.

[NJS 4375]

As you say, it's more of a viable option with hindsight but at the time there was no chance of the government being shamed into doing something by peaceful protest. I'm guessing that the people involved looked at the tactics that worked so well for their southern counterparts and decided to adopt the same tactics in the hope that they would 'finish the job'.

 

As well as the fact that a lot of other places in the empire had won independence through arms - obviously the contrived britishness of the Unionists makes it harder/closer to home.

[Kitman 2204]

In a peace keeping conflict, helping the local police, in 30 years, when young men are sent onto the streets with weapons and no idea if someone in a window in a street will shoot them, when people have threw Molotov cocktails at them, when they don't know if rioters will do any more than just throw bricks at them, then I think it's a surprise there hasn't been more innocent deaths caused by the Army to be honest. Good job they were almost always professional and didn't just kill any daft young kid who got in their faces. There'd have been a blood bath every few months.

 

Tbf the Army were welcomed by catholics when they first came over but it soon transpired that their intentions certainly weren't to win hearts and minds, they're heavy handed tactics meant that they ended up losing the confidence of both sides of the community.

 

I have a general question if anyone cares to have a go at answering it, what were the alternatives for Northern Irish catholics?

 

They were discriminated against for jobs and housing, they were disenfranchised and under represented in the Northern Ireland parliament, their attempts and peaceful protest were being ignored, they were being thrown in jail without trial, Thatcher was letting an MP die on hunger strike, they simply didn't have a voice.

 

I'm not defending terrorism but this wasn't just about getting a united Ireland, it was also about the institutional discrimination against a community that didn't have a voice. So violence aside, what could they have done?

Easy for me to say with hindsight, but, by keeping the high moral ground, they would have eventually got their fair share as a community in Northern Ireland, if that was their aim. Unfortunately things don't change overnight but they inevitably do, clever media manipulation in a media age will get you pretty far. I don't think it's a coincidence that Apartheid, the fall of Soviet empire, and the Irish peace process all happened within a few years of each other. Peaceful Catholic protesters would have had their voices heard and would have had even more strong support from the USA in my opinion.

 

For those who wanted a United Ireland, by resorting to violence they lost the high moral ground.

 

Also, any fear of the IRA changing their stance and getting back to what they were in the seventies and eighties went to fuck when those planes flew into World Trade centre in my opinion.

 

I'm not so sure the Northern Irish Catholics would have attracted as much attention as Apartheid or the American civil rights protesters. The IRA gained a worldwide platform and momentum from what they did, as horrific and murderous as it was, there was a lot of calculation about what they did once they'd organised themselves. Would the British government have been as willing to make concessions faced with peaceful protests? What attention would white religious minority protesters in Northern Ireland have got in 1972? Would it have struck a chord with the world media?

 

I don't think you can underestimate the hopelessness of the Catholic population at that time. As Ewerk says, they were treated like dogs, systematically discriminated against and victimised, disenfranchised and brutalised. Bloody Sunday was a catalyst of sorts but the platform was already there. It's all very well to talk about the moral high ground but at the time I expect it was more about Vietnam and Cuba, the little guy prevailing against the imperalists through armed struggle, than following the Gandhi way.

 

It took over 30 years of pointless bloodshed on both sides of the divide to persuade the sectarians to move on. Bloody Sunday is a shameful and despicable episode, but let's not forget why the British Army were there in the first place. And let's not forget Eniskillen or the Shankhill Butchers while we're at it. It's time to move on.

[Kevin 1]

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

[JawD 99]

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

 

Did you want the soldiers named and individually brought to "justice"?

[JawD 99]

now release the names of the paras and hold them to account the same way republican volenteers were.

 

Thats the bit I mean

[Kevin 1]

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

 

Did you want the soldiers named and individually brought to "justice"?

Upon further investigation most of these "soldiers" are 60+ and the men who gave the orders are probably dead. So no.

[Rob W 0]

Jesus wept - do we want to spend ANOTHER £190 million?

 

All the evidence would have to be reheard in court with packs of lawyers feasting - and after 38 years we'd have witnesses crucified on both sides as the smart alec lawyers shred their memories...........

 

lets just call it a day

[Kevin 1]

Jesus wept - do we want to spend ANOTHER £190 million?

 

All the evidence would have to be reheard in court with packs of lawyers feasting - and after 38 years we'd have witnesses crucified on both sides as the smart alec lawyers shred their memories...........

 

lets just call it a day

Please point out where anyone in this thread asked for anything like this?

[Rob W 0]

there seems to be a general feeling on the Irish side of this thread eg "Innocent people from my city being murdered by nothing more than scum. Friends of my Da, Granda etc. murdered for nothing." - that a trial might be an option

[JawD 99]

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

 

Did you want the soldiers named and individually brought to "justice"?

Upon further investigation most of these "soldiers" are 60+ and the men who gave the orders are probably dead. So no.

 

Well of course they are, given it was like 38 years ago. What did you expect? 30 year olds??

[Kevin 1]

there seems to be a general feeling on the Irish side of this thread eg "Innocent people from my city being murdered by nothing more than scum. Friends of my Da, Granda etc. murdered for nothing." - that a trial might be an option

No point in having a trial this many years on. Families got their names cleared - granted that it was only the English thought they were guilty anyway - and most will be happy. The noise outside the guildhall (were the report was read) went mad as soon as they seen a thumbs up out the window so i'm imagining that most are happy.

 

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

 

Did you want the soldiers named and individually brought to "justice"?

Upon further investigation most of these "soldiers" are 60+ and the men who gave the orders are probably dead. So no.

 

Well of course they are, given it was like 38 years ago. What did you expect? 30 year olds??

[Rob W 0]

I 've read a bit of the report - interestingly the one soldier that seems to have agreed he shot someone ("Soldier T") actually comes across as a fairly reasonable individual put in a desperate position with people raining acid bombs on him

 

the guys who come across as seriously shifty are the mid ranking officers

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

What purpose would be served by publishing a list of the names of the Paras involved, Kevin?

 

 

Other than providing a hit list to the few muppets left who believe in the "armed struggle", I can think of no good reason.

 

Enlighten me .......

 

 

 

.... Vuvuzela.

To name and shame them.

 

 

Which is fair enough and most (should) have little against that. But then, while I have the deepest sympathy with those effected by the shootings. You cannot help but draw comparisons to the hundreds murdered in the conflict over the years on both sides. Hundreds off innocents, just like this day, who have become another number. There are numerous instances where thorough investigation should have been carried out. But is it worth it? Talk of prosecuting those involved is an interesting thought. Afterall, we prosecute German soldiers involved with death camps do we not? However, where does it end? Should we then not dig up all the files of Shankill, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on and so on. Should these also not be brought to justice? In fact, why not just rip up the Good Friday agreement, drag all those released back behind bars?

 

Where do you think it should end?

I believe that it should end right here. Families got what they wanted, but thats not it over and i know more will come. Some families will want more.

 

Did you want the soldiers named and individually brought to "justice"?

Upon further investigation most of these "soldiers" are 60+ and the men who gave the orders are probably dead. So no.

Has the wind changed direction Vuvu?

[Kevin 1]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Kevin

[Acid 0]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

 

If you name them, then they might aswell be prosecuted.

 

Because as you've stated, some people won't let this go, and more than likely they'll be extremists.

[Rob W 0]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

 

If you name them, then they might aswell be prosecuted.

 

Because as you've stated, some people won't let this go, and more than likely they'll be extremists.

 

 

and some of them might be shot by the remaining loons in the Super Provisional IRA or whatever its called these days

[Craig 6682]

It's a shame your dad didn't get hit in the nuts by a rubber bullet about 9 months before you were born like.

 

 

Well his sack would've been a bit undeveloped at the age of 12

He was 12 nine months before you were born?

Aye people run about shooting rubber bullets at each other for the craic every day. Fuckin' numbskull.

 

I thought you meant at the troubles. Dickwad. Cumstain.

 

Mature insults incoming...

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

The problem, bald balls, is you don't think.

As has been said, if the troops involved were named now, in order to protect them from reprisals taxpayers would foot a bill in the tens of thousands. To what end?

[Kitman 2204]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

The problem, bald balls, is you don't think.

As has been said, if the troops involved were named now, in order to protect them from reprisals taxpayers would foot a bill in the tens of thousands. To what end?

 

 

Bang on Mr Fist. They would be straight into the witness protection programme. It wouldn't resolve anything imo.

[Renton 21392]

After considering the options I agree the best thing to do is let bygones be bygones and move forward.

[LeazesMag 0]

Well Fist, I think naming and shaming people is a lot, and i mean a lot different than prosecuting them. Don't you think so sweet cheeks?

 

If you name them, then they might aswell be prosecuted.

 

Because as you've stated, some people won't let this go, and more than likely they'll be extremists.

 

 

and some of them might be shot by the remaining loons in the Super Provisional IRA or whatever its called these days

 

 

no might about it