Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 The electorate haven't had the option. See the recent GE result. Conservatives backed to continue to sort the country out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17274 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Quite the opposite, how principled is it to promise stuff to vulnerable people you then can't deliver. Why can't it be delivered? You seem to be saying that it's ok to use public money save the banks followed by huge rafts of worldwide quantative easing to boost a flatlining economy, but when it comes to helping the less fortunate members of society the coffers are empty? What you're saying is theres no will to change things. And you're almost certainly right about that among most of the UK electorate because they're cynical, apathetic and plain old not interested. Corbyn is the opposite and he's out to engage people. I have huge doubts whether he'll succeed but I'd rather go down his road than the morally bankrupt status who you seem happy with. Look at Scotland . Theres huge swathes of very conservative people voting for socialists because they know the fuckin wankers running this country are having us over a barrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 See the recent GE result. Conservatives backed to continue to sort the country out. I'll repeat, there wasn't a credible party pushing another way, Labour also planned cuts approaching the same levels as the Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Why can't it be delivered? You seem to be saying that it's ok to use public money save the banks followed by huge rafts of worldwide quantative easing to boost a flatlining economy, but when it comes to helping the less fortunate members of society the coffers are empty? What you're saying is theres no will to change things. And you're almost certainly right about that among most of the UK electorate because they're cynical, apathetic and plain old not interested. Corbyn is the opposite and he's out to engage people. I have huge doubts whether he'll succeed but I'd rather go down his road than the morally bankrupt status who you seem happy with. Look at Scotland . Theres huge swathes of very conservative people voting for socialists because they know the fuckin wankers running this country are having us over a barrell. If it can be delivered, why didn't Milliband think of it / go with it? Why is this one man right and all his colleagues wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 The electorate haven't had the option. To be fair to CT, it's not that the electorate haven't had the option, it's that they're ignorant of the factors that actually determine how a country runs/is economically successful, and that they've swallowed the Tory bullshit about the economy going to hell under Labour, largely because Labour didn't defend themselves as they reasoned that the media propaganda was too strong by the time they sorted themselves out. We live in a country full of bigoted fuckwits. It's sad but true. When we vote ourselves out of Europe and happily shaft thousands of people working for businesses that need the Europe relationship in place to be functional, the full stupidity of the average British person will be laid bare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 If it can be delivered, why didn't Milliband think of it / go with it? Why is this one man right and all his colleagues wrong? Rupert Murdoch and the right wing press' propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'll repeat, there wasn't a credible party pushing another way, Labour also planned cuts approaching the same levels as the Tories. Rather than go tit for tat I'll simply say this. If he can find a way to do all this with policies that won't ruin the country, he'll get my vote. The fact remains however that if he can't convince his own MP's, he's unlikely to convince the electorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Rupert Murdoch and the right wing press' propaganda. Come on man. They ignored the golden egg and a sure fire election winner just to please Murdoch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Rather than go tit for tat I'll simply say this. If he can find a way to do all this with policies that won't ruin the country, he'll get my vote. The fact remains however that if he can't convince his own MP's, he's unlikely to convince the electorate. He's not going to be able to prove it without actually doing it. I know this because there is a fully valid economic theory that supports what he's saying (Keynesian economics) which neither you, the Tories, or the RW press are paying any attention to because it undermines the Tory justification for cutting back the state. Keynes argued that the solution to the Great Depression was to stimulate the economy ("inducement to invest") through some combination of two approaches: A reduction in interest rates (monetary policy), and Government investment in infrastructure (fiscal policy).' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 If it can be delivered, why didn't Milliband think of it / go with it? Why is this one man right and all his colleagues wrong? Going on like this is a brand new mad headed idea. This is basic old labour CT. Keynesian economics, the welfare state, strong unions, first female cabinet member, nationalised industry, it's what delivered the NHS, the old age pensions act, free school meals, national insurance etc. Basically every progressive policy in place today that is being stripped back by conservative governments. It was a magic few decades until business and media got themselves back in order to fight back against it. Hopefully the internet informed youth can make better choices without being as propagandised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Just FYI, the Great Depression actually provided proof that this theory works. So there you go, his ideas aren't nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44888 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I wouldn't get too carried away about the UK's economic recovery btw. All indications are that Osborne's efforts to "finish the job" are stalling, although to read the majority of the press or read the MPC minutes you wouldn't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17274 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 If it can be delivered, why didn't Milliband think of it / go with it? Why is this one man right and all his colleagues wrong? Milliband listened to focus groups and formed his policy from there because although hes a decent person he didn't have any real beleif in himself to deliver a radical anti austerity message. Corbyn is a conviction politician to his marrow from the old skool of the UK Labour movement. He implicitly beleives he's right and is confident about his own ability to deliver the message in a way that Milliband never was. He came over as a nervous confused man trying to please all and in the end pleasing no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 This is actually exactly why Corbyn is needed - not to win the next election but to shift the debate back over to the left rather than calling the centre-right of politics, the 'centre'. If we had an 'electable' Labour leader who was fighting with the Tories over the right-of-centre ground, even if they won we'd end up with something that looks nothing like progressive politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Hopefully the internet informed youth can make better choices without being as propagandised. :lol:Are you being serious? Cos if you are i'll have some of what you're having please. Edited September 13, 2015 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 :lol: Are you being serious? Cos if you are i'll have some of what you're having please. He's right, though. The Labour you wanted to win looks nothing like anything many of the young people in this country would consider voting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17274 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Going on like this is a brand new mad headed idea. This is basic old labour CT. Keynesian economics, the welfare state, strong unions, first female cabinet member, nationalised industry, it's what delivered the NHS, the old age pensions act, free school meals, national insurance etc. Basically every progressive policy in place today that is being stripped back by conservative governments. It was a magic few decades until business and media got themselves back in order to fight back against it. Hopefully the internet informed youth can make better choices without being as propagandised. Roy Jenkins, Labour Home Secretary in the 6Os....legalised homosexuality, abolished capital punishment, and put in place legislation for the contraceptive pill and the abortion bill. A truly great man iyam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 This is actually exactly why Corbyn is needed - not to win the next election but to shift the debate back over to the left rather than calling the centre-right of politics, the 'centre'. If we had an 'electable' Labour leader who was fighting with the Tories over the right-of-centre ground, even if they won we'd end up with something that looks nothing like progressive politics. We haven't had a socialist government in your life time. It isn't going to happen now or for the rest of your life. There are loads of reasons for this but the main one is because, compared to when the Labour party was formed, we are all relatively wealthy. Does that mean all parties are the same? New Labour didn't deliver good things that simply wouldn't happen under the conservatives? Burnham is the same as Johnson? If that's what you think then fair enough, I simply disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 He's right, though. The Labour you wanted to win looks nothing like anything many of the young people in this country would consider voting for. No evidence this generation will vote for anything otheer than the X factor. You've all gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDimpleboy 0 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Anyone that thinks Corbyn can win in 2020 - play around with this. https://moreknownthanproven.wordpress.com/2015/08/26/new-improved-model-to-see-if-corbyn-can-win-a-general-election/ You win elections by appealing to middle england - not the greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 He's not going to be able to prove it without actually doing it. I know this because there is a fully valid economic theory that supports what he's saying (Keynesian economics) which neither you, the Tories, or the RW press are paying any attention to because it undermines the Tory justification for cutting back the state. Keynes argued that the solution to the Great Depression was to stimulate the economy ("inducement to invest") through some combination of two approaches: A reduction in interest rates (monetary policy), and Government investment in infrastructure (fiscal policy).' Stop being obsessed with what the Tories or the RW press think. If he can't convince his own MP's he won't be here this time next year never mind 2020. You keep ignoring this point but it's the crux of the whole situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 We haven't had a socialist government in your life time. It isn't going to happen now or for the rest of your life. There are loads of reasons for this but the main one is because, compared to when the Labour party was formed, we are all relatively wealthy. Does that mean all parties are the same? New Labour didn't deliver good things that simply wouldn't happen under the conservatives? Burnham is the same as Johnson? If that's what you think then fair enough, I simply disagree. I didn't say socialist, I said progressive... and it's not actually about the government that's in power, it's about the issues on which power is won. And we've wasted a lot of time over the last five years with Labour trying desperately to look convincing to people who are worried about pretty right wing concerns. No evidence this generation will vote for anything otheer than the X factor. You've all gone mad. I have a bit more confidence than that. I don't know if I count as young anymore, I probably don't (29), but I and so many other people in my social circles were utterly dismayed with the what the Labour party had become. So dismayed that I considered wasting my vote on the Greens this time out. The other thing is that the young will vote if there's a chance to attack the establishment - and this is the best chance they'll get in a generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Stop being obsessed with what the Tories or the RW press think. If he can't convince his own MP's he won't be here this time next year never mind 2020. You keep ignoring this point but it's the crux of the whole situation. His MPs are shit scared of the RW media - I'm not obsessing about them, they are an actual, highly influential factor in the way in which people vote. Where does all of the information that informs people's votes come from? The media. Which newspaper has the highest readership in the country? The Mail. Which individual owns the largest proportion of UK media outlets? Murdoch. Who do these two factors support in elections? The Tories. There, I've addressed your concern. I'm still waiting on the robust criticism on Keynesian economics by the way. You said you'd vote for him if his ideas were feasible - Keynesian economics proves they are. Unless feasible in this sense means 'once everyone else has decided what's right and I've read it in the papers' - which I suspect it does. That's not going to happen because of the above bit about the RW media. See how this works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 He's right, though. The Labour you wanted to win looks nothing like anything many of the young people in this country would consider voting for. I love that you think "the young" are all lefties are waiting for Corbyn. About 6% of 18-24 year olds voted for the greens, 27% for Conservatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I didn't say socialist, I said progressive... and it's not actually about the government that's in power, it's about the issues on which power is won. And we've wasted a lot of time over the last five years with Labour trying desperately to look convincing to people who are worried about pretty right wing concerns. I have a bit more confidence than that. I don't know if I count as young anymore, I probably don't (29), but I and so many other people in my social circles were utterly dismayed with the what the Labour party had become. So dismayed that I considered wasting my vote on the Greens this time out. The other thing is that the young will vote if there's a chance to attack the establishment - and this is the best chance they'll get in a generation. 29 is young. When you're young you're idealistic. Previous generations of young people actually rioted because of perceived injustices (I'm talking about things like poll tax here, not meadow well or toxteth). This generation? Nah, not so much, you can smell the apathy. I'd say social media is a part cause of this, rather than a solution. Apologies if I sound patronising saying this but that's my impression. We'll soon see who's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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