The Labour Leadership Campaign

[Christmas Tree 4725]

So councils had the power to raise council tax by up to 2% a year without a referendum and 40% of councils did so.

 

I've not claimed there hasn't been a freeze. I've provided some context as to why the "freeze" was more of a desire than an achievement. It's not kept council tax rates nationwide the same as they were 5 years back.

 

I'm in favour of more taxes myself, so I don't see why you portray a freeze as a good thing, not even wanting a rise in line with inflation, while councils are being forced to close libraries and that all over the shop.

I said they were frozen. They were at 2%.

 

Nothing I claimed was incorrect.

 

As for your other points you are quoting articles going back to 2011!!

 

You would have been better to trust your instincts and avoid debate.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

So councils had the power to raise council tax by up to 2% a year without a referendum and 40% of councils did so.

 

I've not claimed there hasn't been a freeze. I've provided some context as to why the "freeze" was more of a desire than an achievement. It's not kept council tax rates nationwide the same as they were 5 years back.

 

I'm in favour of more taxes myself, so I don't see why you portray a freeze as a good thing, not even wanting a rise in line with inflation, while councils are being forced to close libraries and that all over the shop.

You don't argue with fannies, just fuck them.

[Happy Face 29]

I said they were frozen. They were at 2%.

 

Nothing I claimed was incorrect.

 

As for your other points you are quoting articles going back to 2011!!

 

You would have been better to trust your instincts and avoid debate.

You've regurgitated a list of Tory talking points without having the first clue about their validity and embarrassed yourself with how little you know of the detail when challenged.

 

It's not been a debate, I just wiped the floor with you on every one of your 'points'.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

You've regurgitated a list of Tory talking points without having the first clue about their validity and embarrassed yourself with how little you know of the detail when challenged.

 

It's not been a debate, I just wiped the floor with you on every one of your 'points'.

 

I said they were Frozen --- they were frozen.

 

I'm not sure what you don't understand.

[RedfernMag 0]

You would have been better to trust your instincts and avoid debate.

 

I feel that there would be more to gain in attempting to bleach ones anus with a cayenne and nettle compote, than there would be in entering a debate with yourself.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

I feel that there would be more to gain in attempting to bleach ones anus with a cayenne and nettle compote, than there would be in entering a debate with yourself.

You've tried and failed so I understand (on this occasion) your reasoning.

 

Don't forget to take your head out your arse first.

[Rayvin 5223]

CT, do you enter into these unwinnable debates just to pass the time? You're at the heart of almost every multi-page argument on this entire forum

[toonotl 2979]

No. Just a cunt.

[Happy Face 29]

 

I said they were Frozen --- they were frozen.

 

I'm not sure what you don't understand.

 

You've not articulated what it means to be frozen and who makes that decision. Because, for some reason, you want to mimic a politician whose only allegience is to a party and painting them in the best possible light, rather than informing a debate and understanding what has happened.

 

You're loudly proclaiming that your council hasn't raised council tax due to the freeze. You do realise your council is a labour council though, right? Your labour council has decided not to raise council tax though they were able to do so if they chose, as long as it didn't reach 2% in a year.

 

On the other hand, there were plenty of conservative councils that raised council tax 1.99%, the absolute maximum they were allowed, without triggering a referendum.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11335838/Council-tax-to-rise-in-Tory-shires-despite-freeze-ordered-by-ministers.html

 

Look at the office for national statistics spreadsheet with the overall data here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/council-tax-levels-set-by-local-authorities-in-england-2015-to-2016

 

There's a clear drop in increases after the Conservatives took power, but nationwide the average band D council tax rise has still been 4.9% over the term. An average of about 1% a year the past 3 years. Not quite a council tax freeze, more a council tax limit.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

CT, do you enter into these unwinnable debates just to pass the time? You're at the heart of almost every multi-page argument on this entire forum

It's politics, nobody's going to ever win in general as the world is made up of varying views. My views are shared by millions in this country the same as half the population in the states and other countries.

 

There's a lot of leftys on here who simply shout, "Tories, nasty cunts".

 

Not only is that keyboard warrior and language they would probably rarely use in real life conversations, it's also a very simplistic view of the world.

 

My politics are mainly centralist which is usually where the best governments and policies come from be that Tory or Labour.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13869]

He's asking you to actually debate specific points on a deeper level than "Oh, this is what I think", you cretin. I.E. respond in kind to the points he brings up rather than just repeating your first statement and adding a lol smiley. It's almost like you only have a surface knowledge of this, that can't be right, not from you.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

He's asking you to actually debate specific points on a deeper level than "Oh, this is what I think", you cretin. I.E. respond in kind to the points he brings up rather than just repeating your first statement and adding a lol smiley. It's almost like you only have a surface knowledge of this, that can't be right, not from you.

What a load of childish shite. His whole intention was to "wipe the floor with me".

 

I said council taxes were Frozen. They were. I've already said what the details of the freeze was. It's not anything that needs further debate. It's factual.

 

Similar with "no illegal wars". Try to compare a few pilots seconded to other governments is no comparison to Blair and Browns illegal war costing Millions of lives and basically fucking over the Middle East. It's not even close.

 

It's pure small time petty arguing.

[Happy Face 29]

What a load of childish shite. His whole intention was to "wipe the floor with me".

 

I said council taxes were Frozen. They were. I've already said what the details of the freeze was. It's not anything that needs further debate. It's factual.

 

Similar with "no illegal wars". Try to compare a few pilots seconded to other governments is no comparison to Blair and Browns illegal war costing Millions of lives and basically fucking over the Middle East. It's not even close.

 

It's pure small time petty arguing.

 

Except Blair got the approval of the commons and Cameron didn't.

 

Your absolute statements are crumbling around your ears

[Alex 35083]

What a load of childish shite. His whole intention was to "wipe the floor with me".

 

I said council taxes were Frozen. They were. I've already said what the details of the freeze was. It's not anything that needs further debate. It's factual.

 

Similar with "no illegal wars". Try to compare a few pilots seconded to other governments is no comparison to Blair and Browns illegal war costing Millions of lives and basically fucking over the Middle East. It's not even close.

 

It's pure small time petty arguing.

Why don't you do what you accused me of not doing then? I.e. dissect each of his points in detail. That's a rhetorical question, obviously.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Alex

[Ayatollah Hermione 13869]

What a load of childish shite. His whole intention was to "wipe the floor with me".

 

I said council taxes were Frozen. They were. I've already said what the details of the freeze was. It's not anything that needs further debate. It's factual.

 

Similar with "no illegal wars". Try to compare a few pilots seconded to other governments is no comparison to Blair and Browns illegal war costing Millions of lives and basically fucking over the Middle East. It's not even close.

 

It's pure small time petty arguing.

 

Respond to each of his points then and it won't be petty arguing, it'll be an actual debate! Fuck me

[Gemmill 44894]

 

You've not articulated what it means to be frozen and who makes that decision. Because, for some reason, you want to mimic a politician whose only allegience is to a party and painting them in the best possible light, rather than informing a debate and understanding what has happened.

 

You're loudly proclaiming that your council hasn't raised council tax due to the freeze. You do realise your council is a labour council though, right? Your labour council has decided not to raise council tax though they were able to do so if they chose, as long as it didn't reach 2% in a year.

 

On the other hand, there were plenty of conservative councils that raised council tax 1.99%, the absolute maximum they were allowed, without triggering a referendum.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11335838/Council-tax-to-rise-in-Tory-shires-despite-freeze-ordered-by-ministers.html

 

Look at the office for national statistics spreadsheet with the overall data here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/council-tax-levels-set-by-local-authorities-in-england-2015-to-2016

 

There's a clear drop in increases after the Conservatives took power, but nationwide the average band D council tax rise has still been 4.9% over the term. An average of about 1% a year the past 3 years. Not quite a council tax freeze, more a council tax limit.

Just in case this gets lost on the previous page. You've got some points to debate, you metal detecting bellend.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

Except Blair got the approval of the commons and Cameron didn't.

 

Your absolute statements are crumbling around your ears

Give over Blair could yet be up on war crime charges following Chilcot. Night and day ridiculous comparison.

[Alex 35083]

I don't think you'd find many people of any political persuasion who agree with the invasion of Iraq. It's legality is highly debatable however. As is the notion a Conservative government would have behaved any differently.

[Alex 35083]

Also, were it not for Labour, who knows how deeply mired we may have been in the Syria conflict by now. If you look at how gung ho some were over getting involved there then it's not really much of a stretch to believe they'd have done the same in 2003 in the post-9/11 climate. It's certainly difficult to believe they wouldn't have approved sending troops to Afghanistan.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Why don't you do what you accused me of not doing then? I.e. dissect each of his points in detail. That's a rhetorical question, obviously.

Simply because all the statements I made are true.

 

The council tax freeze is unequivocal.

 

The policy was to freeze council tax so that no council could raise it by more than 1.99% without a referendum.

 

That happened.

 

 

Trying to compare a few seconded pilots to an illegal war costing millions of lives is equally as stupid. If I'd said that you would be all over me like a rash.

 

I don't mind proper political discussion, but this level is just childish.

[Alex 35083]

Simply because all the statements I made are true.

 

The council tax freeze is unequivocal.

 

The policy was to freeze council tax so that no council could raise it by more than 1.99% without a referendum.

 

That happened.

 

 

Trying to compare a few seconded pilots to an illegal war costing millions of lives is equally as stupid. If I'd said that you would be all over me like a rash.

 

I don't mind proper political discussion, but this level is just childish.

He raised several other points though. Also, the council tax 'freeze', as has been demonstrated, wasn't actually a freeze. It was a cap on how much council tax could go up. It's a slightly different thing. It's also debatable that it's a good thing. You've got councils having to double the amount of childcare they provide (something else you raise as a good thing) but, rather than being given extra funding, they are actually having less funding in real terms. So I would ask how they are supposed to find the money to provide something they've been forced to bring in.

I've covered the Syria / Iraq stuff in the posts I've just made.

You're not interested in proper discussion. Just saying you are and calling other people childish doesn't mask that. Continually repeating it when people are trying to debate with you is childish however. It's this reason (amongst others) why people tend to say you're not worth bothering with after a few attempts. You then hold this up and some sort of victory or 'scalp' Which is also pretty childish and precisely the sort of lack of interest in actual debate which you accuse others of.

[Meenzer 15531]

He's already said he sees "supporting" a political party as akin to supporting a football team. I don't see what's to be gained by wasting breath on someone like that in a politics thread.

[Meenzer 15531]

Meanwhile, "ehhhhh, Blair-lite mannerisms, ehhhh":

 

http://www.andy4labour.co.uk//manifesto

[NJS 4386]

"Celebrating" no rise in council tax and then whinging about the lack of gritters would be CT's style.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

He raised several other points though. Also, the council tax 'freeze', as has been demonstrated, wasn't actually a freeze. It was a cap on how much council tax could go up. It's a slightly different thing. It's also debatable that it's a good thing. You've got councils having to double the amount of childcare they provide (something else you raise as a good thing) but, rather than being given extra funding, they are actually having less funding in real terms. So I would ask how they are supposed to find the money to provide something they've been forced to bring in.

I've covered the Syria / Iraq stuff in the posts I've just made.

You're not interested in proper discussion. Just saying you are and calling other people childish doesn't mask that. Continually repeating it when people are trying to debate with you is childish however. It's this reason (amongst others) why people tend to say you're not worth bothering with after a few attempts. You then hold this up and some sort of victory or 'scalp' Which is also pretty childish and precisely the sort of lack of interest in actual debate which you accuse others of.

Come on, your clever than this.

 

You know fine well this a very leftish board and I could discuss politics til the cows come home and it would go the same way. "Cunt", "cretin" etc etc.

 

It's a blood sport not a discussion.