Calls for Pope to be put on trial

[trophyshy 7084]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/1...pe-benedict-xvi

 

Richard Dawkins calls for Pope to be put on trial

 

Critics including Christopher Hitchens are exploring legal options for Pope Benedict XVI to face trial in UK

 

Prominent atheists Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are paying lawyers to investigate the possibility of prosecuting the pope for crimes against humanity, their solicitor confirmed today.

 

The pair argue that Pope Benedict XVI should be arrested when he visits Britain in September and put on trial for his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church. Last week a letter emerged from 1985 in which the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger urged that a paedophilic priest in America not be defrocked for the "good of the universal church".

 

The Vatican has already suggested the pope is immune from prosecution because he is a head of state. But Dawkins and Hitchens believe that because he is not the head of a state with full United Nations membership, he does not hold immunity and could be arrested when he steps on to British soil.

 

This is the advice they have been given by their lawyers – solicitor Mark Stephens and human rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC.

 

"I'm convinced we can get over the threshold of immunity," said Stephens. "The Vatican is not recognised as a state in international law. People assume that it has existed for time immemorial but it was a construct of Mussolini, and when the Vatican first applied to become a member of the UN, the US said no. So as a sop they were given the status of permanent observers rather than full members."

 

But the Holy See insists it is a state like any other. Earlier this month, Giuseppe Dalla Torre, Vatican tribunal chief, said: "The pope is certainly a head of state and he has the same legal status as all heads of state."

 

Stephens said there are three lines of approach to put the pope in the dock. "One is that we apply for a warrant to the international criminal court. Alternatively, criminal proceedings could be brought here, either a public prosecution brought by the Crown Prosecution Service or a private prosecution. That would require at least one victim to come forward who is either from this jurisdiction or was abused here. The third option is for individuals to lodge civil claims," said Stephens.

 

He said he had recently been approached by seven wealthy individuals who donated money to the Catholic church and were dismayed their money had not only been used to fund abuse but also buy the silence of victims. These people could potentially sue the pope, Stephens suggested.

 

Writing in the Washington Post on Friday, Dawkins described Ratzinger as a "leering old villain in a frock … whose first instinct when his priests are caught with their pants down is to cover up the scandal and damn the young victims to silence."

 

Without admitting that he had consulted lawyers he added: "This former head of the Inquisition should be arrested the moment he dares to set foot outside his tinpot fiefdom of the Vatican, and he should be tried in an appropriate civil – not ecclesiastical – court. That's what should happen. Sadly, we all know our faith-befuddled governments will be too craven to do it."

 

Pope Benedict will be in Britain from 16-19 September where he will beatify the theologian Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Edited April 12, 2010 by trophyshy

[ChezGiven 0]

Could prove to be a good piece of PR with the Islamic community.

[NJS 4411]

I support the notion but I think it would be better to bid their time - more and more stuff is being found all the time and I think the case will be bigger in the years to come. However I'm all for stirring shit ahead of his visit.

 

I'd also say that the ban on Wilders which was overturned could be used as precedent to ban him for hate speech (against gays) though I feel uncomfortable with the concept.

[Renton 22002]

I'd love to see Ratzinger taken down but I'm a bit uneasy about Dawkin's involvement in this - could be seen as opportunism. Hasn't Dawkins suggested that he himself was subject to mild abuse at boarding school as well?

 

Regardless, the pope even looks evil, he would be perfectly cast as the Emperor on Star Wars.

[NJS 4411]

I'd love to see Ratzinger taken down but I'm a bit uneasy about Dawkin's involvement in this - could be seen as opportunism.

 

I suppose there is a danger in alienating people who would see it that way and don't like his so called strident stance. I would love one of the victims to have had the courage to "front" a campaign which might still happen.

[Sonatine 11542]

Regardless, the pope even looks evil, he would be perfectly cast as the Emperor on Star Wars.

 

 

 

 

 

Uncanny

[Renton 22002]

 

If it does go to court I'd want to be in a Faraday cage come verdict time if I was there.

[trophyshy 7084]

The chuch will probably portray themselves as victims if this happens, modern life turning on God, the end is nigh etc.

[Happy Face 29]

Hitchens was on Real Time talking about the pope a couple of weeks back...

 

[Park Life 71]

You guys are tripping if you think they are going to touch the Pope.

[Meenzer 15721]

You guys are tripping if you think they are going to touch the Pope.

 

That being the state in which you apparently make all of your posts on here. I thought you'd approve.

[NJS 4411]

You guys are tripping if you think they are going to touch the Pope.

 

They recently changed the law so that you can't ask a magistrate for a warrant for a visiting "dignitary" - now it''s up to the CPS- this was after the Israeli foreign minister had to cancel a visit because someone had obtained a watrant based on Amnesty evidence. However I think they also had an eye on Ratzinger's visit when the law was changed.

 

I agree it's a non-starter but as I said I'd like to see some "controversy" generated just for the hell of it.

[Park Life 71]

You guys are living under the sad illusion that the law applies to all equally. Seriously.....

[trophyshy 7084]

I note http://www.arrestblair.org/ has made a couple of payouts, still £10k available!

[Park Life 71]

I note http://www.arrestblair.org/ has made a couple of payouts, still £10k available!

 

Just put a bounty up for a clean kill why fuck about?

[Guest Barrack Road]

No doubt the Rangers fans will have collection buckets out for the legal costs.

[Guest Barrack Road]

There's almost as much anti-catholicism as there is anti semitism. If there is a case to be answered it should be answered right through the catholic church though.

[Guest alex]

There's almost as much anti-catholicism as there is anti semitism. If there is a case to be answered it should be answered right through the catholic church though.

There's a difference between say, hating all Jews and having strong feelings about what the institution that is the Catholic Church has done though. Especially when you consider most of the misdeeds of the latter were against Catholics. Agree with Ant and Parky like. Waste of time.

[NJS 4411]

There's a difference between say, hating all Jews and having strong feelings about what the institution that is the Catholic Church has done though.

 

And you can think Israel has done some absolutely appalling things without hating Jews.

[Guest alex]

There's a difference between say, hating all Jews and having strong feelings about what the institution that is the Catholic Church has done though.

 

And you can think Israel has done some absolutely appalling things without hating Jews.

Or you can be against what the US / British government have done without wanting to blow up their citizens

[Bombadil 0]

I have no problem with atheists in general, but in my experience a lot of them are more fundamentalistic and dogmatic than most religious people I know and therefore incredibly annoying. Dawkins and Hitchens being a case in point.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Bombadil

[Park Life 71]

There's a difference between say, hating all Jews and having strong feelings about what the institution that is the Catholic Church has done though.

 

And you can think Israel has done some absolutely appalling things without hating Jews.

 

Good point, there is an element of self-hate when a state perpetuates crimes against others. It's often a reflection, it's also why many Brits feel uncomfortable abroad.

[Holden McGroin 6784]

I just watched Deliver Us From Evil last week.

 

Pretty heartbreaking watching the kids that Father Oliver O'Grady raped/abused telling their stories. He was more or less just passed from one area to another with the Church covering each case up. And he re-offended every time.

 

The kids (now adults) went to the Vatican to get some sort of response but they didn't even get acknowledged.

[NJS 4411]

I think the problem with the Catholic church that makes it different to other churches or religions is that they honestly believe that they are special and above petty concerns like governments or laws. I guess Islam has the concept of universal brotherhood of believers which transcends borders but Catholicism's view of itself is unique. Of course it doesn't help when virtual theocracies like Ireland (until recently) are involved as the state institutions like justice become entwined too much with the churches.

 

I know the respect and reverence for religion will protect the pope but I would love to see him just get a feel for how people think - I'm sure he's a bit like the royal family in having a naive view that everyone loves him.

 

I think arguments about international law and immunity are exactly what's needed to make people question the reverence religious institutions enjoy which is a huge step on the road to more secularisation. I think a reply to "But you can't arrest the pope" of "Why not?" is a good start.

[Park Life 71]

It really is nothing to do with what people 'think' (what do they think anyway ), they don't think beyond the next pot noodle. If 'the people' is all the pope has to worry about he's laughing.