boro 2-2 NUFC

[Papa Lazaru 0]

I always find it funny how some people don't read the thread before posting.

 

This is what Leazes said with regard to the "big" club.

 

"The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had."

 

quite different context to the simplistic definition that you give or the "potential top 5" club that rentboy refers too.

 

However sadly for you i'm neither Renton nor Leazes and was merely pointing out to you my view not theirs and mentioning the fact you should be capable of discerning the difference between the terms big club and successful club.

[Craig 6682]

Stole that point. CH proving he really doesn't have what it takes.

 

 

According to Booby Moncur (at the game) it was the players that didnt turn up, in particular Jonas.

 

You're a parody of yourself tbh.

 

Let me spell it out for you. It is evident to anyone who watches him play that Nicky Butt is finished. Chris Hughton put Butt on for no apparent reason. Butt came on and gifted the opposing team a needless free-kick from which they scored. What else is left to say? That's even before talking about how he decided to put Simpson on the wrong side when we had a perfectly good left-back on the bench and brought on the absolutely worthless Leon Best (and let's not forget it was Hughton who bought the plodder in the first place) just when we needed urgency. He doesn't know what he is doing. Hughton is not a good manager and it is only by virtue of us having a significantly better squad than the rest of the dross in this division that we are top. A bag of rocks could do his job at this point. He will be caught out in truly monumental fashion when we return to the PL (just as he was when he was "managing" the squad in Kinnear's absence) and he will be out of a job by December when we are getting humped week in and week out, and the fans begin to turn on Fat Mike again and he needs another sacrificial lamb.

 

I don't need a crystal ball to see this and neither do you. Hughton is no good. We need to add a real manager to our wish list of "midfielders who can actually pass, strikers who can actually score, an owner who actually knows how to run a club."

 

p.s. Jonas was one of our best players on the night and had a class assist to put us ahead. Take off your blinders man.

 

 

I agree with pretty much of most what you say here. The sad thing, and i don't want to labour the point even though I'm sure some will accuese me of all sorts of shite that suits them,but we are - under Mike Ashley - back to how the club was run in the 1960's, 70's and 80's.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had.

 

We all know where you're going with your point of view LM but I'll put this one in the mix. Without Keegan, Hall and Shepherd would have achieved no more than Westwood, Seymour, McKeag, etc. did. KK made the difference, NOT Freddy Shepherd.

 

SBR aside (who I've always considered to be one of the greatest club managers in my lifetime), we've been in a constant decline from the day Keegan walked out in 1997. And we all know why that was, don't we?

 

of course, but Keegan would not have did half of what he did under McKeag, Seymour and Westwood

 

Under the same circumstances as Hall found himself under, I bet he would have done.

 

SJH was frankly shitting himself about the plight of the club and the general apathy that was setting in on the terraces. The response to the 4-0 and 5-2 defeats at Southend and Oxford respectively was pretty damning IIRC - a lot of fans whilst sick to death of the McKeag episode (and lets face it, Forbes was one of his cronies) were extremely sceptical of the Magpie Group and their true intentions. Getting Keegan in as manager was a master-stroke and he knew it - hence why you could see him panic-stricken on the evening after the Swindon game.

 

The only difference between Seymour, McKeag, etc and Hall was financial clout and once Hall had understood the full benefit of having KK on board I'm convinced he was obsessed with floating the club almost immediately - he'd tried it once before remember (why the fuck they did back in 1990 mind you I have absolutely no idea!).

[Craig 6682]

How ironic though that the shittest owner we've had could actually bring us some silverwear? ha fuckin ha

 

Fucker has to relegate us first though

[Craig 6682]

Stole that point. CH proving he really doesn't have what it takes.

 

 

According to Booby Moncur (at the game) it was the players that didnt turn up, in particular Jonas.

 

You're a parody of yourself tbh.

 

Let me spell it out for you. It is evident to anyone who watches him play that Nicky Butt is finished. Chris Hughton put Butt on for no apparent reason. Butt came on and gifted the opposing team a needless free-kick from which they scored. What else is left to say? That's even before talking about how he decided to put Simpson on the wrong side when we had a perfectly good left-back on the bench and brought on the absolutely worthless Leon Best (and let's not forget it was Hughton who bought the plodder in the first place) just when we needed urgency. He doesn't know what he is doing. Hughton is not a good manager and it is only by virtue of us having a significantly better squad than the rest of the dross in this division that we are top. A bag of rocks could do his job at this point. He will be caught out in truly monumental fashion when we return to the PL (just as he was when he was "managing" the squad in Kinnear's absence) and he will be out of a job by December when we are getting humped week in and week out, and the fans begin to turn on Fat Mike again and he needs another sacrificial lamb.

 

I don't need a crystal ball to see this and neither do you. Hughton is no good. We need to add a real manager to our wish list of "midfielders who can actually pass, strikers who can actually score, an owner who actually knows how to run a club."

 

p.s. Jonas was one of our best players on the night and had a class assist to put us ahead. Take off your blinders man.

 

 

I agree with pretty much of most what you say here. The sad thing, and i don't want to labour the point even though I'm sure some will accuese me of all sorts of shite that suits them,but we are - under Mike Ashley - back to how the club was run in the 1960's, 70's and 80's.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had.

 

We all know where you're going with your point of view LM but I'll put this one in the mix. Without Keegan, Hall and Shepherd would have achieved no more than Westwood, Seymour, McKeag, etc. did. KK made the difference, NOT Freddy Shepherd.

 

SBR aside (who I've always considered to be one of the greatest club managers in my lifetime), we've been in a constant decline from the day Keegan walked out in 1997. And we all know why that was, don't we?

 

of course, but Keegan would not have did half of what he did under McKeag, Seymour and Westwood

 

Under the same circumstances as Hall found himself under, I bet he would have done.

 

SJH was frankly shitting himself about the plight of the club and the general apathy that was setting in on the terraces. The response to the 4-0 and 5-2 defeats at Southend and Oxford respectively was pretty damning IIRC - a lot of fans whilst sick to death of the McKeag episode (and lets face it, Forbes was one of his cronies) were extremely sceptical of the Magpie Group and their true intentions. Getting Keegan in as manager was a master-stroke and he knew it - hence why you could see him panic-stricken on the evening after the Swindon game.

 

The only difference between Seymour, McKeag, etc and Hall was financial clout and once Hall had understood the full benefit of having KK on board I'm convinced he was obsessed with floating the club almost immediately - he'd tried it once before remember (why the fuck they did back in 1990 mind you I have absolutely no idea!).

 

Just reading on .COM that that was 18 years ago today!! Fucking hell where does time go?

[NJS 4378]

The only difference between Seymour, McKeag, etc and Hall was financial clout and once Hall had understood the full benefit of having KK on board I'm convinced he was obsessed with floating the club almost immediately - he'd tried it once before remember (why the fuck they did back in 1990 mind you I have absolutely no idea!).

 

One of the things LM can't answer is how the hell the previous boards were supposed to have "shown ambition" in the 70s and 80s when football was pretty much money free. They could never have borrowed money and had no personal wealth to speak of - they saw the club as a family business which is both limiting but also showed they did care in their own way.

 

I'm not sure whether Hall saw the sky money coming but his initial flotation was to try and make money from the local businesses and fans. Given the timing it failed. Of course after having struck it lucky with Keegan (nobody knew he was going to be a good manager) they had a second chance to get their money back and make a shit load in 97 and then off Ashley. As I've said that was his intention from day one and though I probably accept Shepherd did care about the club, Hall and his fuckwit son never did.

[Craig 6682]

If any one of them had 'cared' enough about the club they'd have come to the conclusion that Kevin Keegan was more important than any windfall from a floatation.

 

That's my opinion anyway and no amount of typing from Shepherd/Hall sympathisers are going to change that opinion. And I'll add that just because I'm saying Shepherd was shit it doesn't mean I think Ashley is any better. Definitely a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

[Kevin 1]

fuck me this has to be one of the most depressing threads going. Cheer up gentlemen.

[LeazesMag 0]

I always find it funny how some people don't read the thread before posting.

 

This is what Leazes said with regard to the "big" club.

 

"The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had."

 

quite different context to the simplistic definition that you give or the "potential top 5" club that rentboy refers too.

 

first part of that is a tongue in cheek reference to how we have slid since the Halls and Shepherd did their best to tap the potential

 

Surprised you didn't see it as the latter part makes it quite clear - however the rest of the thread comments by me are accurate and I've posted on numerous occasions over the years that we are arguably the 3rd and maybe even 2nd biggest club in the country, because in my opinion while manu are undisputably the biggest club due to world wide appeal, my belief is we could easily fill a 70,000 stadium with local support, never mind the global appeal that would result, if we had only half the success they have had. The Keegan years proved that, when it seemed half the city wanted to get into that ground.

[LeazesMag 0]

I always find it funny how some people don't read the thread before posting.

 

This is what Leazes said with regard to the "big" club.

 

"The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had."

 

quite different context to the simplistic definition that you give or the "potential top 5" club that rentboy refers too.

 

However sadly for you i'm neither Renton nor Leazes and was merely pointing out to you my view not theirs and mentioning the fact you should be capable of discerning the difference between the terms big club and successful club.

 

exactly

[Holden McGroin 6582]

fuck me this has to be one of the most depressing threads going. Cheer up gentlemen.

 

 

 

Lose = worst team in the world

Draw = Hughton out

Win = We'll get hammered in PL

 

 

I tend to not even bother reading these threads when we lose. Not much optimism going around..

[LeazesMag 0]

If any one of them had 'cared' enough about the club they'd have come to the conclusion that Kevin Keegan was more important than any windfall from a floatation.

 

That's my opinion anyway and no amount of typing from Shepherd/Hall sympathisers are going to change that opinion. And I'll add that just because I'm saying Shepherd was shit it doesn't mean I think Ashley is any better. Definitely a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

 

I wouldn't argue with that. I hope it nails the view that I'm a "Halls and Shepherd sympathiser who thinks they could do no wrong". I've also said a few times in the past that the biggest mistake they made was not going ahead and building a new stadium.

 

Any success whatsoever, and even the current one isn't big enough. If we had won the league in 1996 we could have gone on and been a totally different club today or even if KK had stayed as manager and did it later.

[LeazesMag 0]

The only difference between Seymour, McKeag, etc and Hall was financial clout and once Hall had understood the full benefit of having KK on board I'm convinced he was obsessed with floating the club almost immediately - he'd tried it once before remember (why the fuck they did back in 1990 mind you I have absolutely no idea!).

 

One of the things LM can't answer is how the hell the previous boards were supposed to have "shown ambition" in the 70s and 80s when football was pretty much money free. They could never have borrowed money and had no personal wealth to speak of - they saw the club as a family business which is both limiting but also showed they did care in their own way.

 

I'm not sure whether Hall saw the sky money coming but his initial flotation was to try and make money from the local businesses and fans. Given the timing it failed. Of course after having struck it lucky with Keegan (nobody knew he was going to be a good manager) they had a second chance to get their money back and make a shit load in 97 and then off Ashley. As I've said that was his intention from day one and though I probably accept Shepherd did care about the club, Hall and his fuckwit son never did.

 

How many other clubs had personal wealth in those days ? Fact is we still had one of the biggest crowds in the country and certainly the biggest untapped potential. Why do you think Gazza, Beardsley and Waddle all fucked off and why we spent all those years either in the 2nd division or the bottom half of the first, for a club with our potential.

 

Are you aware of the fact Lord Westwood once said that if Brian Clough walked through the door of SJP he would walk out ?

Why do you think Bobby Robson was never interested in managing his home town club ? Why do you think none of the Geordie players ie Shearer ever came home and spent the best years of their career ?

Edited March 14, 2010 by LeazesMag

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Found a programme from the Newcastle - Boro match from 1978 at my parents house tonight. Might try to scan it and get some images up here later in the week.

[Andrew 4748]

fuck me this has to be one of the most depressing threads going. Cheer up gentlemen.

 

 

 

Lose = worst team in the world

Draw = Hughton out

Win = We'll get hammered in PL

 

 

I tend to not even bother reading these threads when we lose. Not much optimism going around..

 

I know the standard response is "I'm not a pessimist im a realist" but I think that that is the case for the most part, I've not been one of the doomsayers of the season, generally back us to win every home game and most away ones too but if people dont see that wholesale changes are needed for us to have a "successful" next season then your optimism is bordering on delusion

 

I think this match has demonstrated better than almost any other I can think of this season that hughton will get found out at PL level he has benefitted from having a superior squad than anyone else this season and yet we're still turning in performances like this, before watford we hadnt won away from home since covenvtry in december which is not the sort of form that leaves you deserving to be on top of the league

 

we cant rely on our home form next season because we will be facing teams that will just beat us anyway and if our away from this season is anything to go off then we'll be lucky anytime we draw away next season

[LeazesMag 0]

Stole that point. CH proving he really doesn't have what it takes.

 

 

According to Booby Moncur (at the game) it was the players that didnt turn up, in particular Jonas.

 

You're a parody of yourself tbh.

 

Let me spell it out for you. It is evident to anyone who watches him play that Nicky Butt is finished. Chris Hughton put Butt on for no apparent reason. Butt came on and gifted the opposing team a needless free-kick from which they scored. What else is left to say? That's even before talking about how he decided to put Simpson on the wrong side when we had a perfectly good left-back on the bench and brought on the absolutely worthless Leon Best (and let's not forget it was Hughton who bought the plodder in the first place) just when we needed urgency. He doesn't know what he is doing. Hughton is not a good manager and it is only by virtue of us having a significantly better squad than the rest of the dross in this division that we are top. A bag of rocks could do his job at this point. He will be caught out in truly monumental fashion when we return to the PL (just as he was when he was "managing" the squad in Kinnear's absence) and he will be out of a job by December when we are getting humped week in and week out, and the fans begin to turn on Fat Mike again and he needs another sacrificial lamb.

 

I don't need a crystal ball to see this and neither do you. Hughton is no good. We need to add a real manager to our wish list of "midfielders who can actually pass, strikers who can actually score, an owner who actually knows how to run a club."

 

p.s. Jonas was one of our best players on the night and had a class assist to put us ahead. Take off your blinders man.

 

 

I agree with pretty much of most what you say here. The sad thing, and i don't want to labour the point even though I'm sure some will accuese me of all sorts of shite that suits them,but we are - under Mike Ashley - back to how the club was run in the 1960's, 70's and 80's.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of NUFC as being one of the biggest clubs in the country, the better. They have grown up to think of the club in these terms - correctly - but it is the ex board/owners who created this expectation , whatever faults they had.

 

We all know where you're going with your point of view LM but I'll put this one in the mix. Without Keegan, Hall and Shepherd would have achieved no more than Westwood, Seymour, McKeag, etc. did. KK made the difference, NOT Freddy Shepherd.

 

SBR aside (who I've always considered to be one of the greatest club managers in my lifetime), we've been in a constant decline from the day Keegan walked out in 1997. And we all know why that was, don't we?

 

of course, but Keegan would not have did half of what he did under McKeag, Seymour and Westwood

 

Under the same circumstances as Hall found himself under, I bet he would have done.

 

SJH was frankly shitting himself about the plight of the club and the general apathy that was setting in on the terraces. The response to the 4-0 and 5-2 defeats at Southend and Oxford respectively was pretty damning IIRC - a lot of fans whilst sick to death of the McKeag episode (and lets face it, Forbes was one of his cronies) were extremely sceptical of the Magpie Group and their true intentions. Getting Keegan in as manager was a master-stroke and he knew it - hence why you could see him panic-stricken on the evening after the Swindon game.

 

The only difference between Seymour, McKeag, etc and Hall was financial clout and once Hall had understood the full benefit of having KK on board I'm convinced he was obsessed with floating the club almost immediately - he'd tried it once before remember (why the fuck they did back in 1990 mind you I have absolutely no idea!).

 

 

I wouldn't argue with any of that either. At least SJH had the intelligence and the courage to attempt to tap it and keep Keegan, even though it was KK's early outstanding buys that all cost very little that set the upward momentum going. He got very lucky as it wasn't even his choice to appoint KK in the first place but he gets all the credit.

 

He tried to float the club because he wasn't the major shareholder and it - probably - as figurehead of the Magpie Group, it seemed the only way to get the old regime out. It failed miserably anyway, they didn't even raise half of 2.5m quid that was needed to go ahead. I still have the letter I got with my returned cheque.

 

He was spouting stuff about supporters owning the club though, maybe because he didn't want to put money of his own into it ?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

fuck me this has to be one of the most depressing threads going. Cheer up gentlemen.

 

 

 

Lose = worst team in the world

Draw = Hughton out

Win = We'll get hammered in PL

 

 

I tend to not even bother reading these threads when we lose. Not much optimism going around..

 

 

So true.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

He got very lucky as it wasn't even his choice to appoint KK in the first place but he gets all the credit.

Whose was it Leazes?

[Tom 14011]

It was me.

[LeazesMag 0]

He got very lucky as it wasn't even his choice to appoint KK in the first place but he gets all the credit.

Whose was it Leazes?

 

 

According to KK in his book, it was Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd who expressed the need to make the change and had already approached him without Sir Johns knowledge, who then found himself in a corner and outpointed by his 3 main board members.

 

Its a long piece, I've actually posted it straight from the book before when myself and craig have spoken about it.

[NJS 4378]

How many other clubs had personal wealth in those days ? Fact is we still had one of the biggest crowds in the country and certainly the biggest untapped potential. Why do you think Gazza, Beardsley and Waddle all fucked off and why we spent all those years either in the 2nd division or the bottom half of the first, for a club with our potential.

 

Are you aware of the fact Lord Westwood once said that if Brian Clough walked through the door of SJP he would walk out ?

Why do you think Bobby Robson was never interested in managing his home town club ? Why do you think none of the Geordie players ie Shearer ever came home and spent the best years of their career ?

 

 

Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd and Spurs all had owners who were infinitely better off than ours. Forest and Leeds got "lucky" with managers.

 

By the time Beardsley etc were around we didn't have big crowds and remember there was no corporate shit either. Man U and Liverpool also had bigger sponsorship and global merchandise income.

 

I'm not saying their management even accounting for lack of money was good - but then again money aside the Halls was pretty shit as well - allowing Keegan to leave and as you said giving up the fight for a new ground too easily being examples.

 

I don't think you can argue that Hall was lucky with timing in terms of a huge influx of money into the game. That doesn't mean I think others would have done better but it also doesn't mean he had some magic formula or invested that much personally to make that luck.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

He got very lucky as it wasn't even his choice to appoint KK in the first place but he gets all the credit.

Whose was it Leazes?

 

 

According to KK in his book, it was Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd who expressed the need to make the change and had already approached him without Sir Johns knowledge, who then found himself in a corner and outpointed by his 3 main board members.

 

Its a long piece, I've actually posted it straight from the book before when myself and craig have spoken about it.

Cheers, interesting.

[Craig 6682]

Fletcher is the man credited with coming up with the idea of bringing in Keegan. The other 3 didn't think it was possible and were dismissive of it straight away - Hall Snr more than the other 2.

 

Chairman always did get the credit (and blame where it was necessary) for all things club related in those days.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Fletcher is the man credited with coming up with the idea of bringing in Keegan. The other 3 didn't think it was possible and were dismissive of it straight away - Hall Snr more than the other 2.

 

Chairman always did get the credit (and blame where it was necessary) for all things club related in those days.

The Rottweiler.

[LeazesMag 0]

He got very lucky as it wasn't even his choice to appoint KK in the first place but he gets all the credit.

Whose was it Leazes?

 

 

According to KK in his book, it was Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd who expressed the need to make the change and had already approached him without Sir Johns knowledge, who then found himself in a corner and outpointed by his 3 main board members.

 

Its a long piece, I've actually posted it straight from the book before when myself and craig have spoken about it.

Cheers, interesting.

 

 

Keegan says on page 205 in his book "Neither George Forbes nor Peter Mallinger knew that on Monday 3 February 1992 I was being asked to take over as Newcastle Manager on the Wednesday. When it came to the crunch, it was Fletcher, Shepherd and Douglas Hall who wanted me to replace Ossie Ardiles".

 

Further down the page he says about a meeting they had " I was not very impressed with him (Hall Snr). It was obvious that he wasn't comfortable with my proposed appointment. I could understand why, because he has put his name to an article by Bob Cass in the Mail on Sunday three days earlier which claimed that ossie's job was safe, and I knew that his family had built up a strong friendship with Ossie's. I was also concerned that neither Mallinger nor Forbes was present. Whatever Sir John thought about the situation he was in the minority. The other 3 laid the cards on the table: the club was on its way down and they had to do something very quickly if they were going to halt the decline. It seemed to me that Sir John was being given no choice.

 

He seemed anxious to get away - his original reason for coming down to London with his wife Lady Mae was to buy some trees in Kew Gardens. But I would not let him slip away until I knew how much money would be available to me for players. He told me that there would be 1m straight away and a further million if it was required. That was what I wanted to hear. It might not sound like a lot of money these days, but then I felt it was as much as I needed"

 

Further down he says "I must have been the only manager to be appointed without the knowledge of the chairman and vice chairman, neither of whom was informed until an hour before the press conference at which the news was made public. And even the future chairman - the man with the money - indicated that it was his colleagues rather than himself who wanted me."

 

A few pages later, on page 213, he says "What I did not know what that Sir John hall was playing political games with the other directors, Bob Young, George Forbes, Peter Mallinger and Gordon McKeag, in the matter of funds he had promised me. He was quite prepared to put in his share of the money I needed, which amounted to 40 per cent, but he told the others that they had to find the

remaining 60 per cent. That was not fair, because none of them had been given a say in my appointment, or even known about it, let alone an opportunity to turn down or agree to my original demands. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't their problem and I never held anything against Forbes and Mallinger over the issue.

 

All this was going on as a sideshow to the relegation battle and I decided that enough was enough. I filled Terry {Mac} in on the details and told him that we had no alternative but to go. Sir John had to keep his promises, regardless of his problems with the others and how much they might or might not put in."

 

Later, on pagef 214, he says "The player I wanted, Darren McDonough from Luton, was only going to cost £100,000, a fraction of the 1m or even the 2m pledged to me to get the club out of trouble"

 

Then, after the Swindon game, while driving out of the ground with Terry (Mac) - " I'm finished here and none of you know. I was furious, not with Forbes, Mallinger or the other directors, but with Sir John Hall".

[LeazesMag 0]

Fletcher is the man credited with coming up with the idea of bringing in Keegan. The other 3 didn't think it was possible and were dismissive of it straight away - Hall Snr more than the other 2.

 

Chairman always did get the credit (and blame where it was necessary) for all things club related in those days.

 

In actual fact, Fletcher was the man who transformed Rangers, when he was appointed by them back in the 1980's and it was his idea to appoint Souness as manager. His idea was to appoint someone to galvanise the support, and it worked. Murray bankrolled him, he took Terry Butcher, Chris Woods, Gary Stephens and Trevor Steven to Rangers and they overtook Celtic and dominated Scotland again.

 

He brought the same idea to Newcastle ie he thought Keegan would galvanise the support, and was right. I don't know how much persuasion it took to get Hall Jnr and Shepherd on his side, but he did. See my previous post. But they did. SJH was the only one who didn't want to change manager and make the appointment.

 

It isn't really right that a chairman takes all the credit or blame for things when he is just a spokesman for the board, but there you go, it probably shows that some football supporters aren't really very bright