Bulger killer back inside

[NJS 4373]

It's pure evil, isn't it ?

 

I don't think ytou can say that without knowing what their family life was like - as I said if it was anything like those two kids in Doncaster, I'd pity them rather than condemn them.

 

Of course I don't accept the supernatural definition of "evil" - I've always defined it for myself as people who know what they are doing is wrong and do it anyway - say like the Krays - I don't think kids like this who have had a shitty family life would know what was right and what was wrong.

[Renton 21368]

So, is Armchair Penis going to be neutered??

 

Some folk want capital punishment brought back, and the folk that don't call them inhumane or words to that effect. The capital punishers call the non cp-ers lilly-livered do-gooders. Why should one side be right, and the other wrong? The indignation one side has for the other gets on my tits at times, both believing they're completely right and, therefore, the others must be wrong etc etc. It is allowed in this country for someone to hold an opposing view. Just because it may differ from yours, does not make you right by default.

 

im('umble)opinion, master Copperfield.

 

The argument against capital punishment has already been won where it matters.

 

That's one of the ironies here. The people who get their knickers in a twist because of our 'soft' legal system tend to be the ones who are most vociferously patriotic and nationalistic. I'm not nationalistic or particularly patriotic BUT I have enormous respect for our system of law and order, believing it to be the best in the world, with some justification I think. The nationalistic types, in general, would like us to fundamentally change our legal system and bring in a new era of barbarism akin to Saudi. I take delight in their seething in the full knowledge they'll NEVER get their way (unless ironically the muslims really do take over).

 

When the muslims take over.

 

In all seriousness - as if that isn't serious - what I really believe in is handing out firm punishments and sticking to it. They should fit the crime. Life should mean life. And yes I DO advocate capital punishment for certain crimes [although not many].

 

Whatever it costs to build the prisons, and employ the staff etc etc, do it, pay it, and whack it on income tax if need be. Those rich tories who want to keep their income tax yet have a good law and order system can fuck off because if they want it then they pay for it.

 

See. I'm not a right winger.......

 

I think this government has increased prison capacity by over 50%, it's getting close to 100,000 spaces, nearly all of which are utilized. That policy can only go so far. Like I said I think there are more fundamental problems - probably ultimately related with inequity in the spread of wealth - at the core of things. Bloody complicated subject though, and you'll be glad to know not one I'm particularly knowledgeable about or even that interested in currently.

 

Btw your comment on the cost of keeping Venables and Thompson in prison for 'life' suggests you weren't joking about capital punishment in their specific case.

 

I would not disagree that the root cause of crime is difficult to diagnose and the policy can only go so far. Another point is that if the population increases, then that is going to also be a contributory factor.

 

I can see the point that executing those 2 could be regarded as inhumane by some, but what they did to Jamie Bulger was totally horrific beyond belief. All of us on here, we have all been 10 - could you commit such acts as they did, torturing a little defenceless bairn ? I probably wouldn't shoot them, no, but I couldn't think of an adequate punishment other than making sure they spent their lives in absolute misery, and well deserved too.

 

Of course I can't imagine doing what they did, but then I didn't have their shitty backgrounds. I seriously can't remember what it's like to be 10 though, in actual fact I almost regard the child I was to be an entirely different person now. A child of 10 is not an adult, is he? Out of interest, what would be the lowest age you'd expect a child to have adult culpabilities - 9, 8, 7, 6?

 

Regardless, why would I want them to spend the rest of their lives in misery, what good does that do, for anyone? I can understand the argument for nor releasing them because of the risk of reoffending but making them suffer all their lives completely misses the primary purpose of the judicial system imo. It shouldn't be about revenge.

 

 

See Renton, it is easy to say that it shouldn't be about revenge, but nobody can know what it feels like unless it happens to you. As it happens I would take my hat off to someone who didn't seek revenge, but if it happened to your child, personally I would want to shoot those responsible. The horror of what happened to their little boy will never leave his parents.

 

10 years old is not an adult, but I am quite sure that personally I was aware enough to know certain things, and humane enough never to have remotedly thought of doing anything like that to anybody, least of all a 2-3 year old. It's pure evil, isn't it ? What DO you do ? How do you think his parents feel that these 2 scumbags get out and their son has gone forever.

 

But that's the point. In this country the judicial system is entirely divorced from the feelings of the victims and that is very deliberate - so it can remain objective and focus on its primary concerns - prevention and rehabilitation. If you fundamentally disagree with that then that means you disagree with the system of law and justice that has evolved in this country over centuries. Justice is not equivalent to revenge. Incidentally revenge is clearly not a christian attitude either, and we are nominally a christian country.

 

I expect nothing is going to make Mrs Bulger feel better. I do know that its generally a myth that family of victims in the US feel any sort of closure when the offender is executed though.

[Renton 21368]

It's pure evil, isn't it ?

 

I don't think ytou can say that without knowing what their family life was like - as I said if it was anything like those two kids in Doncaster, I'd pity them rather than condemn them.

 

Of course I don't accept the supernatural definition of "evil" - I've always defined it for myself as people who know what they are doing is wrong and do it anyway - say like the Krays - I don't think kids like this who have had a shitty family life would know what was right and what was wrong.

 

Did I imagine I heard on the radio last night that Thompson was considered a 'psychopath' who had warped Venebles, which is why an expert was surprised it was Venebles that may have 'relapsed'? A psychopath is someone who has a personality disorder in which they can't feel empathy with other people. It's not reversible or curable. If this is the case, it begs the question why was Thompson released any way?

[NJS 4373]

Incidentally revenge is clearly not a christian attitude either, and we are nominally a christian country.

 

I know where we both stand on religion but I found that case a couple of years ago when that woman's kid got shot (I think in Liverpool) and she said as a Christian she forgave their killers to be incredibly affecting. Maybe a lesson we could all use even if I don't think many could do so.

[LeazesMag 0]

So, is Armchair Penis going to be neutered??

 

Some folk want capital punishment brought back, and the folk that don't call them inhumane or words to that effect. The capital punishers call the non cp-ers lilly-livered do-gooders. Why should one side be right, and the other wrong? The indignation one side has for the other gets on my tits at times, both believing they're completely right and, therefore, the others must be wrong etc etc. It is allowed in this country for someone to hold an opposing view. Just because it may differ from yours, does not make you right by default.

 

im('umble)opinion, master Copperfield.

 

The argument against capital punishment has already been won where it matters.

 

That's one of the ironies here. The people who get their knickers in a twist because of our 'soft' legal system tend to be the ones who are most vociferously patriotic and nationalistic. I'm not nationalistic or particularly patriotic BUT I have enormous respect for our system of law and order, believing it to be the best in the world, with some justification I think. The nationalistic types, in general, would like us to fundamentally change our legal system and bring in a new era of barbarism akin to Saudi. I take delight in their seething in the full knowledge they'll NEVER get their way (unless ironically the muslims really do take over).

 

When the muslims take over.

 

In all seriousness - as if that isn't serious - what I really believe in is handing out firm punishments and sticking to it. They should fit the crime. Life should mean life. And yes I DO advocate capital punishment for certain crimes [although not many].

 

Whatever it costs to build the prisons, and employ the staff etc etc, do it, pay it, and whack it on income tax if need be. Those rich tories who want to keep their income tax yet have a good law and order system can fuck off because if they want it then they pay for it.

 

See. I'm not a right winger.......

 

I think this government has increased prison capacity by over 50%, it's getting close to 100,000 spaces, nearly all of which are utilized. That policy can only go so far. Like I said I think there are more fundamental problems - probably ultimately related with inequity in the spread of wealth - at the core of things. Bloody complicated subject though, and you'll be glad to know not one I'm particularly knowledgeable about or even that interested in currently.

 

Btw your comment on the cost of keeping Venables and Thompson in prison for 'life' suggests you weren't joking about capital punishment in their specific case.

 

I would not disagree that the root cause of crime is difficult to diagnose and the policy can only go so far. Another point is that if the population increases, then that is going to also be a contributory factor.

 

I can see the point that executing those 2 could be regarded as inhumane by some, but what they did to Jamie Bulger was totally horrific beyond belief. All of us on here, we have all been 10 - could you commit such acts as they did, torturing a little defenceless bairn ? I probably wouldn't shoot them, no, but I couldn't think of an adequate punishment other than making sure they spent their lives in absolute misery, and well deserved too.

 

Of course I can't imagine doing what they did, but then I didn't have their shitty backgrounds. I seriously can't remember what it's like to be 10 though, in actual fact I almost regard the child I was to be an entirely different person now. A child of 10 is not an adult, is he? Out of interest, what would be the lowest age you'd expect a child to have adult culpabilities - 9, 8, 7, 6?

 

Regardless, why would I want them to spend the rest of their lives in misery, what good does that do, for anyone? I can understand the argument for nor releasing them because of the risk of reoffending but making them suffer all their lives completely misses the primary purpose of the judicial system imo. It shouldn't be about revenge.

 

 

See Renton, it is easy to say that it shouldn't be about revenge, but nobody can know what it feels like unless it happens to you. As it happens I would take my hat off to someone who didn't seek revenge, but if it happened to your child, personally I would want to shoot those responsible. The horror of what happened to their little boy will never leave his parents.

 

10 years old is not an adult, but I am quite sure that personally I was aware enough to know certain things, and humane enough never to have remotedly thought of doing anything like that to anybody, least of all a 2-3 year old. It's pure evil, isn't it ? What DO you do ? How do you think his parents feel that these 2 scumbags get out and their son has gone forever.

 

But that's the point. In this country the judicial system is entirely divorced from the feelings of the victims and that is very deliberate - so it can remain objective and focus on its primary concerns - prevention and rehabilitation. If you fundamentally disagree with that then that means you disagree with the system of law and justice that has evolved in this country over centuries. Justice is not equivalent to revenge. Incidentally revenge is clearly not a christian attitude either, and we are nominally a christian country.

 

I expect nothing is going to make Mrs Bulger feel better. I do know that its generally a myth that family of victims in the US feel any sort of closure when the offender is executed though.

 

 

I'm not going to argue over the mechanics of what you say or the point about Christian values which I can agree with, however, releasing those 2 and/or seeing them have any sort of half decent life at all, isn't Justice to Mrs Bulger.

[Renton 21368]

I'm not going to argue over the mechanics of what you say or the point about Christian values which I can agree with, however, releasing those 2 and/or seeing them have any sort of half decent life at all, isn't Justice to Mrs Bulger.

 

I agree with that.

[Craig 6682]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

[Renton 21368]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

 

I agree with the sentiment, but how are you going to write their 'crimes' into statute though? I just don't think its possible. It's also relevant to a lot of lower grade crime committed by kids.

[manc-mag 1]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

 

Stevie for one (of many).

[luckyluke 2]

As for wanting to hang 10 year olds - barbarism at its finest - in fact I'd consider locking people who suggest it up as they are obviously twisted.

 

 

I think the likes of Armchair Pundit definitely need locking up, who by his own admission would derive pleasure from carrying out such an act. I'm also quite concerned by the suggestion that he currently works for the NHS.

 

You don't think he was taking the piss?

 

I did tbh, I wasn't being serious, but then he follows it up with a more serious post supporting capital punishment so I'm not so sure now!

[manc-mag 1]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

 

I agree with the sentiment, but how are you going to write their 'crimes' into statute though? I just don't think its possible. It's also relevant to a lot of lower grade crime committed by kids.

 

 

Looking back, if the facts of their parenting were bad enough to suggest some form of abuse then that's probably where the legal system should have gone with it.

 

Morally they have to share some responsibility for what happened to James Bulger at their son's hands, but it would be nigh on impossible to contrive a law sophisticated enough to safely hold them vicariously liable in the criminal sense for any number of reasons. And that's the only exculpatory remark I would ever make in connection with them.

[Craig 6682]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

 

I agree with the sentiment, but how are you going to write their 'crimes' into statute though? I just don't think its possible. It's also relevant to a lot of lower grade crime committed by kids.

 

 

Looking back, if the facts of their parenting were bad enough to suggest some form of abuse then that's probably where the legal system should have gone with it.

 

Morally they have to share some responsibility for what happened to James Bulger at their son's hands, but it would be nigh on impossible to contrive a law sophisticated enough to safely hold them vicariously liable in the criminal sense for any number of reasons. And that's the only exculpatory remark I would ever make in connection with them.

 

I agree it's a sentimentality and that nothing practical could realistically be done to punish them. But morally they're guilty in my eyes and I suspect in the eyes of a lot of other people too.

 

FWIW I think Denise Fergus is obsessed by it all too. Did anyone read that article about how she tracked down where the other kid was just so that she could look him in the eye once more? In the same way that they're not allowed to approach her, I don't think she should be allowed to approach them. I cannot begin to imagine the horror that she has been through but she needs to move on from it all - it's 17 years ago for fuck's sake.

 

She'd do well to take a good look at Sara Payne and what she's achieved since the murder of her daughter.

[manc-mag 1]

Back on the parents of the 10 year olds. Can any of you say hand on heart that they in no way responsible for the actions of their sons? Not at all.. of course they have a responsibility as parents. Twisted as the kids were, they've bound to have been influenced by their parents.

 

What punishment did they get? Ordered to leave Merseyside and given whole new identities - and all at taxpayers expense! Some would argue that is far from punishment.

 

I agree with the sentiment, but how are you going to write their 'crimes' into statute though? I just don't think its possible. It's also relevant to a lot of lower grade crime committed by kids.

 

 

Looking back, if the facts of their parenting were bad enough to suggest some form of abuse then that's probably where the legal system should have gone with it.

 

Morally they have to share some responsibility for what happened to James Bulger at their son's hands, but it would be nigh on impossible to contrive a law sophisticated enough to safely hold them vicariously liable in the criminal sense for any number of reasons. And that's the only exculpatory remark I would ever make in connection with them.

 

I agree it's a sentimentality and that nothing practical could realistically be done to punish them. But morally they're guilty in my eyes and I suspect in the eyes of a lot of other people too.

 

FWIW I think Denise Fergus is obsessed by it all too. Did anyone read that article about how she tracked down where the other kid was just so that she could look him in the eye once more? In the same way that they're not allowed to approach her, I don't think she should be allowed to approach them. I cannot begin to imagine the horror that she has been through but she needs to move on from it all - it's 17 years ago for fuck's sake.

 

She'd do well to take a good look at Sara Payne and what she's achieved since the murder of her daughter.

 

If the facts supported it, I'd have had every support for a prosecution for abuse, with the judgment citing the clear and shameful link between their actions and the death of James Bulger-and the attendant sentence could have reflected that as far as it was lawful to do so. The casual abdication of responsibility in some parents is a fucking disgrace and the root cause of a countless number of society's major problems. They're also the problems that the authorities by their very nature are utterly ill equipped to deal with by comparison.

Edited March 3, 2010 by manc-mag

[luckyluke 2]

FWIW I think Denise Fergus is obsessed by it all too. Did anyone read that article about how she tracked down where the other kid was just so that she could look him in the eye once more? In the same way that they're not allowed to approach her, I don't think she should be allowed to approach them. I cannot begin to imagine the horror that she has been through but she needs to move on from it all - it's 17 years ago for fuck's sake.

 

She'd do well to take a good look at Sara Payne and what she's achieved since the murder of her daughter.

 

I agree she's probably not helping herself, but it's easy to say that though isn't it, I'd imagine the brutal murder of your toddler is something that is incredibly difficult to move on from.

[Craig 6682]

FWIW I think Denise Fergus is obsessed by it all too. Did anyone read that article about how she tracked down where the other kid was just so that she could look him in the eye once more? In the same way that they're not allowed to approach her, I don't think she should be allowed to approach them. I cannot begin to imagine the horror that she has been through but she needs to move on from it all - it's 17 years ago for fuck's sake.

 

She'd do well to take a good look at Sara Payne and what she's achieved since the murder of her daughter.

 

I agree she's probably not helping herself, but it's easy to say that though isn't it, I'd imagine the brutal murder of your toddler is something that is incredibly difficult to move on from.

 

I agree mate that it is something just not worth comprehending and that it must sit with you forever. Suspect she beats herself up about the fact she left him outside the shop that day. Even though she did, it doesn't excuse for one moment what they did.

 

My son is 4½ and there's no way in hell I'd let him out of my sight in a shopping centre now never mind 18 months ago.

[manc-mag 1]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

[snakehips 0]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

 

What are the qualifying conditions, though? Work them out, and I'm right behind you. Anyone 'south of the river' would be a good opener methinks

 

EDIT: Okay, that's a wee bit far fetched. Let's say 'south of the river' as far as N.Yorkshire moors, eh?

Edited March 3, 2010 by snakehips

[manc-mag 1]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

 

What are the qualifying conditions, though? Work them out, and I'm right behind you. Anyone 'south of the river' would be a good opener methinks

 

EDIT: Okay, that's a wee bit far fetched. Let's say 'south of the river' as far as N.Yorkshire moors, eh?

 

Good job I'm not advocating a system which discriminates based on attaining basic literacy standards or you'd still be shooting blanks, sunshine

[manc-mag 1]

Absolutely fucking plough the savings made back into education btw (including adult learning for the likes of snakey)

[NJS 4373]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

 

I've been saying that for years - antidotes available on licence.

 

Anybody who goes abroad to breed would be denied re-entry to the country.

[Park Life 71]

Anyone managed to get the faux moral high ground on this one?

[TheMoog 0]

As for wanting to hang 10 year olds - barbarism at its finest - in fact I'd consider locking people who suggest it up as they are obviously twisted.

 

 

I think the likes of Armchair Pundit definitely need locking up, who by his own admission would derive pleasure from carrying out such an act. I'm also quite concerned by the suggestion that he currently works for the NHS.

 

You don't think he was taking the piss?

 

I did tbh, I wasn't being serious, but then he follows it up with a more serious post supporting capital punishment so I'm not so sure now!

 

Alright, alright, settle down. For the record I think we're all aware that things aren't so black and white as to the pros and cons for such things, personally IF guilt was provable to a satisfactory degree then I would prefer a murderer dead themselves rather than being alive and costing me the money of housing them and feeding them in a prisons. At the end of the day it'd never happen though because there would always be that doubt by someone that the perp might be the victim of a miscarriage of justice. Just out of curiosity I wonder how much money is spent keeping murderers alive and what percentage they take up in the overall amount of criminals in prison.

 

And damn your hides for making me post a more serious response!

Edited March 3, 2010 by Armchair Pundit

[Monkeys Fist 42116]

As for wanting to hang 10 year olds - barbarism at its finest - in fact I'd consider locking people who suggest it up as they are obviously twisted.

 

 

I think the likes of Armchair Pundit definitely need locking up, who by his own admission would derive pleasure from carrying out such an act. I'm also quite concerned by the suggestion that he currently works for the NHS.

 

You don't think he was taking the piss?

 

I did tbh, I wasn't being serious, but then he follows it up with a more serious post supporting capital punishment so I'm not so sure now!

 

Alright, alright, settle down. For the record I think we're all aware that things aren't so black and white as to the pros and cons for such things, personally IF guilt was provable to a satisfactory degree then I would prefer a murderer dead themselves rather than being alive and costing me the money of housing them and feeding them in a prisons. At the end of the day it'd never happen though because there would always be that doubt by someone that the perp might be the victim of a miscarriage of justice. Just out of curiosity I wonder how much money is spent keeping murderers alive and what percentage they take up in the overall amount of criminals in prison.

 

And damn your hides for making me post a more serious response!

The answer is to build a wall around s*nderland, then dump them all in there in an " Escape from New York" stylee.

Keeps everyone happy

[luckyluke 2]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

 

Having the implanon (implant about 1/3 the size of a toothpick that releases progesterones providing contraception, like the mini-pill for those who know what it is) inserted in all girls at the onset of periods is probably the best option. Fewer risks (blood clots, cancers, migraines) than the normal pill as well.

 

Problems are that it needs replacing every 3 years and determined women could always hack it out of their arm.

[Monkeys Fist 42116]

PS universal compulsary temporary sterilisation to an age of society's choosing. If a safe, reversible method existed. Any thoughts?

 

Having the implanon (implant about 1/3 the size of a toothpick that releases progesterones providing contraception, like the mini-pill for those who know what it is) inserted in all girls at the onset of periods is probably the best option. Fewer risks (blood clots, cancers, migraines) than the normal pill as well.

 

Problems are that it needs replacing every 3 years and determined women could always hack it out of their arm.

Can it not be rammed up the poop chute, to paraphrase Mr. Zappa?