Best Opposition Player You've Seen at SJP

[Brazilianbob 0]

I always thought the two goal performance by dutch international Johnny Rep for Bastia? at SJP in the UEFA Cup was outstanding. The boy had an absolutely ferocious shot on him, and boy could he play.

 

That aside, I was priviledged to see George Best at his "best", Bobby Charlton, Denis Law etc as well as the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Alan Gilzean, Ralph Coates, Jonny Giles, Billy Bremner, KK, Toshack, Derek Dougan and Peter Knowles. Colin (Nijinsky) Bell stands out as one of the best players I have seen though, he had everything that Gerrard has but his stamina was remarkable (hence the nickname) and if he was playing today he would have run the legs off Gerrard.

Aye cos Gerrard's lacking in energy and stamina isn't he? I've often argued Pele wouldn't get a game in the conference and I stand by that. Old football was slow, people were putting tabs out on the half way line till the 1940's.

 

 

Stevie

 

If you really think "old football" was slower you are deluding yourself. In his prime, Pele was head and shoulders above any player currently playing anywhere in the world and that includes Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho et al.

 

I have seen both old and current football and I can assure you that the majority of old footballers were more skilful, probably because the pitches were rubbish, which possibly slowed them down, but that doesn't mean they weren't fast. They were every bit as fast as their modern counteparts given a good pitch.

 

As regards the comparison between Gerrard and Bell I would stake my life on the statement that pound for pound Colin Bell was a better player than Steven Gerrard period, just ask any seasoned Man City fan.

 

Bell was a box to box player who had a thunderbold of a long-range shot on him. He created goals, scored them with both feet and his head, took free kicks, and he tracked back and defended when needed. His stamina was amazing and it wan't me that gave him that nickname, he got that from the press because he earned it. It was a tragedy when injury forced his all too early retirement.

[Holden McGroin 6534]

Footballers are more finely tuned athletes now hence why they get injured so much. Back in the past you could use about 13 players all season. Now you'd be lucky to do that in 3 games.

[Giraffidae 0]

not sure if he’s the best I’ve seen but 1997 NUFC v Croatia Zagreb, Robert Prosinecki was awesome.

[Guest Stevie]

I always thought the two goal performance by dutch international Johnny Rep for Bastia? at SJP in the UEFA Cup was outstanding. The boy had an absolutely ferocious shot on him, and boy could he play.

 

That aside, I was priviledged to see George Best at his "best", Bobby Charlton, Denis Law etc as well as the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Alan Gilzean, Ralph Coates, Jonny Giles, Billy Bremner, KK, Toshack, Derek Dougan and Peter Knowles. Colin (Nijinsky) Bell stands out as one of the best players I have seen though, he had everything that Gerrard has but his stamina was remarkable (hence the nickname) and if he was playing today he would have run the legs off Gerrard.

Aye cos Gerrard's lacking in energy and stamina isn't he? I've often argued Pele wouldn't get a game in the conference and I stand by that. Old football was slow, people were putting tabs out on the half way line till the 1940's.

 

 

Stevie

If you really think "old football" was slower you are deluding yourself. In his prime, Pele was head and shoulders above any player currently playing anywhere in the world and that includes Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho et al.

 

I have seen both old and current football and I can assure you that the majority of old footballers were more skilful, probably because the pitches were rubbish, which possibly slowed them down, but that doesn't mean they weren't fast. They were every bit as fast as their modern counteparts given a good pitch.

 

As regards the comparison between Gerrard and Bell I would stake my life on the statement that pound for pound Colin Bell was a better player than Steven Gerrard period, just ask any seasoned Man City fan.

 

Bell was a box to box player who had a thunderbold of a long-range shot on him. He created goals, scored them with both feet and his head, took free kicks, and he tracked back and defended when needed. His stamina was amazing and it wan't me that gave him that nickname, he got that from the press because he earned it. It was a tragedy when injury forced his all too early retirement.

I'm not going to respond to anything else you've put there, cos I stopped reading. Surely you are a wind up??? I've been watching football since 83 or 84 and going since 85, I'd say football is 100% faster now than it was even at USA 94, 15 YEARS AGO, noticably too, and then it was MUCH faster than 10 years previously. To say it was anything like football today in the 60's and 70's. 99 out of 100 people who know about football not mugs on forums, would say you are talking the biggest load of shit written on an internet message board.

 

Giraffidae, Maric was the best player on the pitch that neet.

[Giraffidae 0]

Stevie

Giraffidae, Maric was the best player on the pitch that neet.

 

Prosinecki was total class and bossed that game, his playmaking made Maric and others look good.

 

As we found out when Maric came here he was like a fish out of water without someone like Prosinecki’s guile.

[Craig 6682]

There was a thing on the radio the other day about players who receive excellent ovations at away grounds. I seem to remember Fat Pat getting such an ovation when he played at SJP for Barca. Pobbibly the night they beat us two nought and he got one.

I was actually thinking about that match although I thought Riquelme was even better on the night.

 

Thinking back to the Barca match, how about the one in '97?

 

I know everyone raves about (with good reason) Asprilla's performance that night but IIRC Luis Enrique was immense for Barca and largely responsible for their fightback.

[Guest alex]

There was a thing on the radio the other day about players who receive excellent ovations at away grounds. I seem to remember Fat Pat getting such an ovation when he played at SJP for Barca. Pobbibly the night they beat us two nought and he got one.

I was actually thinking about that match although I thought Riquelme was even better on the night.

 

Thinking back to the Barca match, how about the one in '97?

 

I know everyone raves about (with good reason) Asprilla's performance that night but IIRC Luis Enrique was immense for Barca and largely responsible for their fightback.

Scored with his chest that night didn't he?

[Craig 6682]

There was a thing on the radio the other day about players who receive excellent ovations at away grounds. I seem to remember Fat Pat getting such an ovation when he played at SJP for Barca. Pobbibly the night they beat us two nought and he got one.

I was actually thinking about that match although I thought Riquelme was even better on the night.

 

Thinking back to the Barca match, how about the one in '97?

 

I know everyone raves about (with good reason) Asprilla's performance that night but IIRC Luis Enrique was immense for Barca and largely responsible for their fightback.

Scored with his chest that night didn't he?

 

Think so aye - class player in his day like. Remember us being linked with him at one point. Them were they days...

[donaldstott 0]

There was a thing on the radio the other day about players who receive excellent ovations at away grounds. I seem to remember Fat Pat getting such an ovation when he played at SJP for Barca. Pobbibly the night they beat us two nought and he got one.

I was actually thinking about that match although I thought Riquelme was even better on the night.

 

Thinking back to the Barca match, how about the one in '97?

 

I know everyone raves about (with good reason) Asprilla's performance that night but IIRC Luis Enrique was immense for Barca and largely responsible for their fightback.

Scored with his chest that night didn't he?

 

Think so aye - class player in his day like. Remember us being linked with him at one point. Them were they days...

 

I always felt that the ovation given to Fat Pat was the SJP crowd trying to persuade him that coming to SJP might be a good idea... Needn't have fucking bothered...

[Guest alex]

I bet the feeling's mutual like.

[Guest Stevie]

There was a thing on the radio the other day about players who receive excellent ovations at away grounds. I seem to remember Fat Pat getting such an ovation when he played at SJP for Barca. Pobbibly the night they beat us two nought and he got one.

I was actually thinking about that match although I thought Riquelme was even better on the night.

 

Thinking back to the Barca match, how about the one in '97?

 

I know everyone raves about (with good reason) Asprilla's performance that night but IIRC Luis Enrique was immense for Barca and largely responsible for their fightback.

I was going to post that Craig, he was pure class. Two free transfers in his career too.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Stevie

[Brazilianbob 0]

I always thought the two goal performance by dutch international Johnny Rep for Bastia? at SJP in the UEFA Cup was outstanding. The boy had an absolutely ferocious shot on him, and boy could he play.

 

That aside, I was priviledged to see George Best at his "best", Bobby Charlton, Denis Law etc as well as the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Alan Gilzean, Ralph Coates, Jonny Giles, Billy Bremner, KK, Toshack, Derek Dougan and Peter Knowles. Colin (Nijinsky) Bell stands out as one of the best players I have seen though, he had everything that Gerrard has but his stamina was remarkable (hence the nickname) and if he was playing today he would have run the legs off Gerrard.

Aye cos Gerrard's lacking in energy and stamina isn't he? I've often argued Pele wouldn't get a game in the conference and I stand by that. Old football was slow, people were putting tabs out on the half way line till the 1940's.

 

 

Stevie

If you really think "old football" was slower you are deluding yourself. In his prime, Pele was head and shoulders above any player currently playing anywhere in the world and that includes Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho et al.

 

I have seen both old and current football and I can assure you that the majority of old footballers were more skilful, probably because the pitches were rubbish, which possibly slowed them down, but that doesn't mean they weren't fast. They were every bit as fast as their modern counteparts given a good pitch.

 

As regards the comparison between Gerrard and Bell I would stake my life on the statement that pound for pound Colin Bell was a better player than Steven Gerrard period, just ask any seasoned Man City fan.

 

Bell was a box to box player who had a thunderbold of a long-range shot on him. He created goals, scored them with both feet and his head, took free kicks, and he tracked back and defended when needed. His stamina was amazing and it wan't me that gave him that nickname, he got that from the press because he earned it. It was a tragedy when injury forced his all too early retirement.

I'm not going to respond to anything else you've put there, cos I stopped reading. Surely you are a wind up??? I've been watching football since 83 or 84 and going since 85, I'd say football is 100% faster now than it was even at USA 94, 15 YEARS AGO, noticably too, and then it was MUCH faster than 10 years previously. To say it was anything like football today in the 60's and 70's. 99 out of 100 people who know about football not mugs on forums, would say you are talking the biggest load of shit written on an internet message board.

 

Giraffidae, Maric was the best player on the pitch that neet.

 

Stevie

 

Give yourself a good hard slap mate and watch your insulting language! If you can't have a reasonable debate don't post OK!

 

I have been watching these games since the mid 60's so I do feel qualified to give a balanced point of view.

 

Quite how you think you have the qualifications to comment on games prior to 1983, that you have only watched on old edited TV footage, is questionable to say the least.

 

As regards USA 94 did you take into account the fact that it was exceedingly hot at the time? Check the temperature records and you will find most games were played in the evening to get round the excessive heat, hence the slow pace of games! You ever heard of the term dehydration?

 

You obviously never saw Supermac play, because if you had you would not come up with the ridiculous statement that "football is 100% faster now than the 60's 70's and 80's". Supermac had electric pace, just watch the 1974 FA Cup semi final against Burnley for evidence of that.

 

Tony Green another 70's player, is also by far the quickest midfield player I have ever had the good fortune to see play. These are just two former NUFC players in a very average 1970's Newcastle side. The game in the 60's, 70's, and 80's was littered with similar players all blessed with pace and skill in abundance so please don't try and tell me the game is faster now than it was then, because quite simply it is not true!

[Guest alex]

That's just Stevie's distinctive posting style Bob. Always good to hear tales from previous eras anyway.

As I see it though, players are fitter and cover more ground now. I think there's been quite a lot of analysis to back that up and there was a study that worked out 10 players now run as far as 11 did in 1970 in a book I read about Brazilian football.

That's not saying players in the past couldn't cut it now because they'd have access to more modern training regimes etc. That makes the game 'faster' in one sense because the knock-on effect is players don't have as much time on the ball. I accept what you've said about pitches being better and that would benefit players who had a good touch on some of the ploughed fields you saw in the past. The pace of individual players is a slightly different thing.

[Guest Stevie]

That's just Stevie's distinctive posting style Bob. Always good to hear tales from previous eras anyway.

As I see it though, players are fitter and cover more ground now. I think there's been quite a lot of analysis to back that up and there was a study that worked out 10 players now run as far as 11 did in 1970 in a book I read about Brazilian football.

That's not saying players in the past couldn't cut it now because they'd have access to more modern training regimes etc. That makes the game 'faster' in one sense because the knock-on effect is players don't have as much time on the ball. I accept what you've said about pitches being better and that would benefit players who had a good touch on some of the ploughed fields you saw in the past. The pace of individual players is a slightly different thing.

Ever the diplomat. Just say it!

 

Brazilian Bob, I don't mean to cause offence, I just found what you said about the pace being no different now as pure and utter pony, but you're entitled to your opinion regardless how flawed. I did see Supermac, and he was running away from people with 6 pints in their stomach from the night before, whereas nowadays you have four defenders who can run 100m in eleven seconds, people like Gael Clichy.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Stevie

[Guest alex]

Ever the diplomat. Just say it!

Hey, I'm just trying to build some bridges here. Is that such a bad thing?

And tbf, Supermac does hold the 100m record on Superstars.

Edited December 9, 2009 by alex

[NJS 4373]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

[Brazilianbob 0]

That's just Stevie's distinctive posting style Bob. Always good to hear tales from previous eras anyway.

As I see it though, players are fitter and cover more ground now. I think there's been quite a lot of analysis to back that up and there was a study that worked out 10 players now run as far as 11 did in 1970 in a book I read about Brazilian football.

That's not saying players in the past couldn't cut it now because they'd have access to more modern training regimes etc. That makes the game 'faster' in one sense because the knock-on effect is players don't have as much time on the ball. I accept what you've said about pitches being better and that would benefit players who had a good touch on some of the ploughed fields you saw in the past. The pace of individual players is a slightly different thing.

Ever the diplomat. Just say it!

 

Brazilian Bob, I don't mean to cause offence, I just found what you said about the pace being no different now as pure and utter pony, but you're entitled to your opinion regardless how flawed. I did see Supermac, and he was running away from people with 6 pints in their stomach from the night before, whereas nowadays you have four defenders who can run 100m in eleven seconds, people like Gael Clichy.

 

No real offence taken Stevie, I just don't see the need for bad language, although I do accept we all resort to it at times. I am assuming you wouldn't use it to my face, so all I am asking is don't do it on a chat forum.

 

You may be surprised to know that in his time at NUFC, Supermac was regularly clocked as doing the 100 metres in around 11 seconds, but he was not the fastest man on the books, that honour belonged to defender Frank Clark, who would probably have been GBR's best sprinter in the Olympics if he wasn't a professional footballer!

 

All I am saying is you don't run at that pace without being fit, and I can remember recently seeing pictures of KK in his prime, circa early to mid 70s, where he had the abs and pecs that we saw on Cristiano Ronaldo just this week. So in my view most players were as fit then as they are today, although I will accept that some were not as fit as the could have been, and the name of Bob Latchford springs to mind, but that is also applicable to many modern players.

 

Even if I was to accept that the game might be faster today, it doesn't mean it is better, because it's no good being quick if you can't marry football skills with the pace of the game, which is why we often see frenetic efforts with little end product because the defenders are just as quick as the forwards and so cancel each other out. The game has practically been reduced to a 100 metres race between forwards and defencers.

 

If anything I would say that the old times were better because the level of skill was higher across the pitch, we saw midfield players who didn't see the point of running 80 yards at full pelt when they had the skill to pick out a striker on the penalty spot from 80yards, [i.e Glen Hoddle, Tony Currie, Joe Baker, and our own Jimmy Smith etc] whilst on the other hand we saw the likes of Tony Green and the sadly departed Alan Ball who could run all day and frequently did, and Ball won a world cup, unlike most of the players currently in the EPL.

 

If I could take you back in time and show you the games I saw, I am sure you would change your point of view, but I cannot do that so we will have to agree to disagree.

[Brazilianbob 0]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

[NJS 4373]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

 

There are aspects of Sport Science which have brought improvements - nutritionally the old "Steak and chips" has been replaced by a Pasta/high carb approach which does make a differnece to stamina etc.

 

Of course people like Bell as you've descibed him may have been "special" but as a whole/on average I'd bet that the modern footballer is fitter.

[Guest alex]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

Surely he was just an exceptional athlete. Would he stand out as much today though? I don't think there's any real debate players are fitter now. I've seen massive improvements in the time I've been watching football.

[Brazilianbob 0]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

Surely he was just an exceptional athlete. Would he stand out as much today though? I don't think there's any real debate players are fitter now. I've seen massive improvements in the time I've been watching football.

 

I disagree, what you are seeing are players who are now trained to the extent that their leg muscles are like coiled springs ready to snap at the slightest over-exertion, hence the number of players who regularly miss a third of the season due to injury. There is a belief that modern training methods are counterproductive when it comes to putting players on the pitch for a full season. Just look at Torres and Gerrard, constantly suffering from groin and hamstring problems from over- stretching too taut muscles!

[Guest alex]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

Surely he was just an exceptional athlete. Would he stand out as much today though? I don't think there's any real debate players are fitter now. I've seen massive improvements in the time I've been watching football.

 

I disagree, what you are seeing are players who are now trained to the extent that their leg muscles are like coiled springs ready to snap at the slightest over-exertion, hence the number of players who regularly miss a third of the season due to injury. There is a belief that modern training methods are counterproductive when it comes to putting players on the pitch for a full season. Just look at Torres and Gerrard, constantly suffering from groin and hamstring problems from over- stretching too taut muscles!

I think there is probably something to that but that's a different type of fitness, if you like. Do players actually get injured more these days though? Or do they just miss games rather than play through the pain, have injections etc. that wreck their later careers? Using single examples doesn't prove anything. I could just as easily quote an example like Gary Speed as a player who played well into his 30s and rarely missed a game. However, that's different to the point I was making in my previous post anyway which relates to more metres being covered on average which in turn makes the game quicker because there is less space etc. That's what I meant by players being fitter.

Edited December 9, 2009 by alex

[Brazilianbob 0]

I think theres a difference between transplanting Colin Bell or whoever as he was into the modern game and chucking him in and having someone of the same talent with the modern fitness/lifestyle improvements - in that context I'd expect the talent to still shine.

 

Where do people get this crazy notion that footballers from the 60's, 70's and 80's were not as fit as modern footballers, just because they didn't have the advantage of an electronic machine telling them what their ideal body fat mass was, doesn't mean they didn't pump as much iron as modern footballers. The Colin Bell I saw playing was a fit, lean, fast, and athletic footballer and any of the top clubs would break the bank to sign him if he was playing today.

Surely he was just an exceptional athlete. Would he stand out as much today though? I don't think there's any real debate players are fitter now. I've seen massive improvements in the time I've been watching football.

 

I disagree, what you are seeing are players who are now trained to the extent that their leg muscles are like coiled springs ready to snap at the slightest over-exertion, hence the number of players who regularly miss a third of the season due to injury. There is a belief that modern training methods are counterproductive when it comes to putting players on the pitch for a full season. Just look at Torres and Gerrard, constantly suffering from groin and hamstring problems from over- stretching too taut muscles!

I think there is probably something to that but that's a different type of fitness, if you like. Do players actually get injured more these days though? Or do they just miss games rather than play through the pain, have injections etc. that wreck their later careers? Using single examples doesn't prove anything. I could just as easily quote an example like Gary Speed as a player who played well into his 30s and rarely missed a game. However, that's different to the point I was making in my previous post anyway which relates to more metres being covered on average which in turn makes the game quicker because there is less space etc. That's what I meant by players being fitter.

 

And I would respond by pointing you to one of my earlier responses that the modern game has practically been reduced to a 100 metres race between striker and defender. As for using Bell as an example, I could produce a huge list of similar players who were just as fit as Bell!

[Guest alex]

The point about what the game has been reduced to only backs up my point though, shirley? I'm not arguing modern football is better.

[Richie J 0]

Maybe the difference is conditioning, rather than fitness. Maybe its just semantics like, but players today are better conditioned to go like Bilio for 90 minutes, much more than in the 70s, say. As Brazilianbob says, they are so fine tuned that the muscles are (particularly hamstrings I think) are more likely to go.

There is no doubt that the game is faster these days, but that doesn't mean that there weren't individual footballers in the 70s (Colin Bell to use use your example) who weren't as fast if not faster than todays players.

 

I read a good interview with Socrates in one pf the papers last year, where he said that football is less enjoyable to watch (for him) precisely because it is much faster and the players run more and faster. If the players run more and faster, but the pitches are the same size, therefore there is less space available... which means its much more difficult to play the ball into space, and therefore more difficult to come up with a real defence splitting pass, which for him used to be oine of the most beautiful things to see in a football match.

 

The other side of it is, as others have said, that we will never know if the great players form the past would be just as great now, with the same conditioning that the players today benefit from. What I would say is that if 1986 Maradona was transported into any current league in the world I'd bet a lot of money that he would still be head and shoulders above anyone else, easily, even with the faster game. And if he had been training everyday at one of the top modern clubs like Arsenal or Man United, the mind boggles about how good he might have been. Maybe that's not a fair example though, cos he was a real one off. You can use the same logic for the likes of Green, Bell et al, but to a lesser extent.