AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Very interesting Pew Survey out today http://people-press.org/report/569/america...ce-in-the-world Loads of fascinating stats, including.... The proportion of the public saying torture is at least sometimes justified against suspected terrorists has increased modestly over the past year. Currently, 54% say torture is at least sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists, compared with 49% in April and 44% in February. So Obama has done the job of legitimising torture for a further 10% of Americans where the majority now believe concentration camps like Guantanamo and the abuses that occur can be justified. Only a quarter think torture should not be tolerated. tbf Happy, i dont think you can compare Guantanamo to the other concentration/death camps mentioned in this thread. scary stats there. not sure what i would answer to those questions as i have relatives in the army who have been on front line duties. So a little bit of torture and murder is ok? Convention Against Torture, signed and championed by Ronald Reagan, Article II/IV: No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. At least he had the good grace to put a respectable face on his torture programs. I'd have thought that having family on the front line would ensure your opposition to the use of torture, given it's power as recruitment propaganda for radical jihadi's. i dont recall saying torture was ok? but if the information gained by the 'intelligence services' has helped save the lives of my relatives on the front line then i guess it puts me in a bit of a quandry. ie. its wrong but i'll gladly take the wrong to protect my own. a shitty state of affairs to be sure, but i dont know anybody that would sacrifice a member of their own family for the sake of their 'principles'. Have you got any hard proof of that? of course not, what a stupid question. But have you any hard proof that it hasnt? I dont agree with torture. I believed I had made that clear. Parky = WUM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 but if the information gained by the 'intelligence services' has helped save the lives of my relatives on the front line then i guess it puts me in a bit of a quandry. ie. its wrong but i'll gladly take the wrong to protect my own. a shitty state of affairs to be sure, but i dont know anybody that would sacrifice a member of their own family for the sake of their 'principles'. I think you missed my point (perhaps intentionally). Torturing people doesn't help keep ANYONE safe. Consider if you were a peaceful farmer minding your sheep and a relative of yours was plucked off the streets of Baghdad, rendered to Cuba, and tortured to death without charge or trial. Would that make you more or less likely to take up the fight against the people that did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMoog 0 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Of course an easier way to deal with these shitty little countries would be to drop some nukes on them and wipe them off the face of the planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Of course an easier way to deal with these shitty little countries would be to drop some nukes on them and wipe them off the face of the planet Would take too long for the fallout to clear so we could go back for the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 but if the information gained by the 'intelligence services' has helped save the lives of my relatives on the front line then i guess it puts me in a bit of a quandry. ie. its wrong but i'll gladly take the wrong to protect my own. a shitty state of affairs to be sure, but i dont know anybody that would sacrifice a member of their own family for the sake of their 'principles'. I think you missed my point (perhaps intentionally). Torturing people doesn't help keep ANYONE safe. Consider if you were a peaceful farmer minding your sheep and a relative of yours was plucked off the streets of Baghdad, rendered to Cuba, and tortured to death without charge or trial. Would that make you more or less likely to take up the fight against the people that did it? I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty "Both sides do it" is not a cogent argument when we are the invading, occupying force killing anyone that objects, as well as lots who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty "Both sides do it" is not a cogent argument when we are the invading, occupying force killing anyone that objects, as well as lots who don't. I thought we were there as liberators??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4256 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 The argument about "what if it saves lives" is a compelling one but I've also read it doesn't really work - the view that "they'll say anything" seems to be true. I also think there's two sides to the "both sides do it" - if you're honest and admit you are going down to your enemies level then that's fair enough even if I disagree. That does however mean you can't claim the moral high ground about being civilised/the rule of law. This is pretty much why I oppose capital punishment and in the past opposed views like "we should just round up the IRA top dogs and shoot them". I can understand the arguments at a simplistic level but as I said I'd prefer to be able to say We are better than them and that killing does not justify revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 (edited) I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty "Both sides do it" is not a cogent argument when we are the invading, occupying force killing anyone that objects, as well as lots who don't. I thought we were there as liberators??? The very notion. That's one thing Obama has done like, stop spouting that shitty line. Edited December 4, 2009 by Happy Face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty "Both sides do it" is not a cogent argument when we are the invading, occupying force killing anyone that objects, as well as lots who don't. I thought we were there as liberators??? The very notion. That's one thing Obama has done like, stop spouting that shitty line. as well as sending more troops in i guess........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry Humanitarian? Definitley the wrong word for what the US show their 'prisoners'. What makes you say the US keep them alive? That's completely false. The difference is, Al Qaeda (for want of a better all encompassing word) release the footage, the US restrict the media and sweep it under the carpet. I didnt know that (probably due to the media ban i would assume). Torture is still wrong, but neither side will stop doing it. no amount of hand wringing by the likes of you and i will change that. as i said earlier, Shitty "Both sides do it" is not a cogent argument when we are the invading, occupying force killing anyone that objects, as well as lots who don't. I thought we were there as liberators??? The very notion. That's one thing Obama has done like, stop spouting that shitty line. as well as sending more troops in i guess........... And aren't we all completely unsurprised when this sort of "news" comes out just when support for the surge is needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Very interesting Pew Survey out today http://people-press.org/report/569/america...ce-in-the-world Loads of fascinating stats, including.... The proportion of the public saying torture is at least sometimes justified against suspected terrorists has increased modestly over the past year. Currently, 54% say torture is at least sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists, compared with 49% in April and 44% in February. So Obama has done the job of legitimising torture for a further 10% of Americans where the majority now believe concentration camps like Guantanamo and the abuses that occur can be justified. Only a quarter think torture should not be tolerated. tbf Happy, i dont think you can compare Guantanamo to the other concentration/death camps mentioned in this thread. scary stats there. not sure what i would answer to those questions as i have relatives in the army who have been on front line duties. So a little bit of torture and murder is ok? Convention Against Torture, signed and championed by Ronald Reagan, Article II/IV: No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. At least he had the good grace to put a respectable face on his torture programs. I'd have thought that having family on the front line would ensure your opposition to the use of torture, given it's power as recruitment propaganda for radical jihadi's. i dont recall saying torture was ok? but if the information gained by the 'intelligence services' has helped save the lives of my relatives on the front line then i guess it puts me in a bit of a quandry. ie. its wrong but i'll gladly take the wrong to protect my own. a shitty state of affairs to be sure, but i dont know anybody that would sacrifice a member of their own family for the sake of their 'principles'. Have you got any hard proof of that? of course not, what a stupid question. But have you any hard proof that it hasnt? I dont agree with torture. I believed I had made that clear. Parky = WUM I don't think your underlying sentiments make it clear at all. Even if your mum was on the front line...Torture is illegal and no Western democracy should condone it or let it happen on the sly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 but if the information gained by the 'intelligence services' has helped save the lives of my relatives on the front line then i guess it puts me in a bit of a quandry. ie. its wrong but i'll gladly take the wrong to protect my own. a shitty state of affairs to be sure, but i dont know anybody that would sacrifice a member of their own family for the sake of their 'principles'. I think you missed my point (perhaps intentionally). Torturing people doesn't help keep ANYONE safe. Consider if you were a peaceful farmer minding your sheep and a relative of yours was plucked off the streets of Baghdad, rendered to Cuba, and tortured to death without charge or trial. Would that make you more or less likely to take up the fight against the people that did it? I take your point Happy and i agree with you that torture is not a good thing. dont forget tho that both sides partake in torture. normally without the humanitarian (if that is the correct word) aspect that the US shows its 'prisoners' in that they remain alive afterwards. Again, i reiterate, torture is WRONG. but that will never stop people from doing it. If you're in it to win it, you'll do anything! ask Thiery Henry What a load of relitavised bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 What a load of relitavised bollocks. Given the coverage we get it's to be expected that axeman sees 'our' torturing of innocent civilians as something clean, with no lasting effects, done with a grave heart only out of extreme necessity for the greater good of humanity. While 'their' torture of innocent civilians and soldiers is a particular kind of evil, without purpose, which stems from a barbaric bloodlust that is inseperable from their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 What a load of relitavised bollocks. Given the coverage we get it's to be expected that axeman sees 'our' torturing of innocent civilians as something clean, with no lasting effects, done with a grave heart only out of extreme necessity for the greater good of humanity. While 'their' torture of innocent civilians and soldiers is a particular kind of evil, without purpose, which stems from a barbaric bloodlust that is inseperable from their religion. isnt it?? thats a joke btw! (just in case) you guys are funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 What a load of relitavised bollocks. Given the coverage we get it's to be expected that axeman sees 'our' torturing of innocent civilians as something clean, with no lasting effects, done with a grave heart only out of extreme necessity for the greater good of humanity. While 'their' torture of innocent civilians and soldiers is a particular kind of evil, without purpose, which stems from a barbaric bloodlust that is inseperable from their religion. isnt it?? thats a joke btw! (just in case) you guys are funny! Backing out graciously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAxeman 164 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 What a load of relitavised bollocks. Given the coverage we get it's to be expected that axeman sees 'our' torturing of innocent civilians as something clean, with no lasting effects, done with a grave heart only out of extreme necessity for the greater good of humanity. While 'their' torture of innocent civilians and soldiers is a particular kind of evil, without purpose, which stems from a barbaric bloodlust that is inseperable from their religion. isnt it?? thats a joke btw! (just in case) you guys are funny! Backing out graciously? best way methinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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