No minarets is switzerland

[AgentAxeman 199]

Swiss referendum 'reflects unease with Islam'

 

As a Swiss referendum backs a ban on the building of minarets, the BBC's Islamic affairs analyst Roger Hardy looks at the often uneasy relationship between Islam and Europe.

Swiss People's Party poster against minarets

The campaign against minarets was led by the Swiss People's Party

 

It might be argued that Switzerland is a special case without much relevance to the rest of Europe.

 

It is true enough that the country has its own individual form of popular democracy - and that it is home to only 320,000 Muslims, between 4% and 5% of the population.

 

But it is not just in Switzerland that the presence of growing Muslim communities has polarised opinion.

 

A series of controversies from the Rushdie affair 20 years ago to the more recent row over Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad have reflected the unease that many Europeans feel about this relatively new Muslim presence.

 

This is not confined to a few tabloid newspapers or a few xenophobic right-wing parties.

 

It is an Islamophobia driven by a variety of factors.

 

Since the attacks of 9/11 in the United States, and the bombings in Madrid and London, Muslims have often been regarded as a security threat.

 

They are seen as not just resistant to integration, but determined to impose their values on the Christian or post-Christian societies of the West.

 

For governments anxious to maintain social harmony at home and good relations with Muslim governments abroad, this poses a set of difficult dilemmas.

 

And for many of the estimated 15 million Muslims in Western Europe, the Swiss vote will be seen as one more sign that - whatever governments may say - they are simply not welcome.

 

 

well at least theres still one functioning democracy left in europe i guess...............

[Ketsbaia 0]

I've no idea what banning minarets is going to achieve, especially as throughout Switzerland there are only 4. The mosques are still there and so are the Muslims. What's the point?

[Happy Face 29]

15m sounds like an awful lot doesn't it.

 

Of course, the 500m population of the EU would make the average around 3% of the population.

 

Compare that with the number of christians in the middle east...

 

Lebanon - % Christian: 34-41%

Israel - % Christian: 2.1-2.8%

West Bank and Gaza - % Christian: 1.1-2.4%

Egypt - % Christian: 8-16%

Syria - % Christian: 5.4-9.4%

Jordan - % Christian: 3-4%

Iraq - % Christian: 2.7- 3.5%

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm

 

We go over there, stealing their jobs and opening our churches. We should be banned.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Happy Face

[AgentAxeman 199]

15m sounds like an awful lot doesn't it.

 

Of course, the 500m population of the EU would make the average around 3% of the population.

 

Compare that with the number of christians in the middle east...

 

Lebanon - % Christian: 34-41%

Israel - % Christian: 2.1-2.8%

West Bank and Gaza - % Christian: 1.1-2.4%

Egypt - % Christian: 8-16%

Syria - % Christian: 5.4-9.4%

Jordan - % Christian: 3-4%

Iraq - % Christian: 2.7- 3.5%

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm

We go over there, stealing their jobs and opening our churches. We should be banned.

 

Damn right!!

 

edit: btw Happy, how many of those countries were Christian before the Islam faith came into being?

Edited November 30, 2009 by AvatarAxeman

[Happy Face 29]

15m sounds like an awful lot doesn't it.

 

Of course, the 500m population of the EU would make the average around 3% of the population.

 

Compare that with the number of christians in the middle east...

 

Lebanon - % Christian: 34-41%

Israel - % Christian: 2.1-2.8%

West Bank and Gaza - % Christian: 1.1-2.4%

Egypt - % Christian: 8-16%

Syria - % Christian: 5.4-9.4%

Jordan - % Christian: 3-4%

Iraq - % Christian: 2.7- 3.5%

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm

We go over there, stealing their jobs and opening our churches. We should be banned.

 

Damn right!!

 

edit: btw Happy, how many of those countries were Christian before the Islam faith came into being?

 

I don't know, if you're going to use it as an argument you should find out.

[Andrew 4969]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

[Happy Face 29]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

Think it started around 600 AD.

 

That's why they're still 600 years behind with all their small factions. No doubt there'll be a big meeting where they agree god's word and become a huge salvation-selling conglomerate in a century or two. And then in a few thousand years, they'll combine with christianity too and become the Viacom of spirituality.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Happy Face

[AgentAxeman 199]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

[Andrew 4969]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

hey I am probably wrong you know, religion is not my stong point

 

as for the new/old testament thing

 

I thought that christianity dealt with new and the jews had the old

[AgentAxeman 199]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

hey I am probably wrong you know, religion is not my stong point

 

as for the new/old testament thing

 

I thought that christianity dealt with new and the jews had the old

 

 

possibly, like you Andrew i have little knowledge on the subject of religion. imo theyre all a bit 'nutty' anyway!

[Happy Face 29]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though.

 

Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously?

 

You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand.

 

Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were?

 

Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches.

[AgentAxeman 199]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though.

 

Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously?

 

You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand.

 

Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were?

 

Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches.

 

 

whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!!

 

wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin?

 

the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement.

please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'?

[Happy Face 29]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though.

 

Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously?

 

You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand.

 

Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were?

 

Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches.

 

 

whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!!

 

wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin?

 

the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement.

please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'?

 

 

Because Nick Griffin made a tit of himself on Question Time harking back to the exact point in time when Britain became white and dismissing any history prior to that.

 

I only cast the christians as invaders to redress the balance after you cast them as unfortunate victims of the spread of Islam across the middle East.

 

As you say, all of that gets away from the point of the original post. Which when you said "at least there's one functioning democracy left", i assumed meant you want a vote on banning a specific religion.

 

If you have no problem with it, why do you want a referendum?

[The Fish 11080]

Technically it's not a democracy any way.

[Park Life 71]

It's basically a boring, expensive country full of cunts. Add to nuke list.

[Ketsbaia 0]

Can someone post that Muslim Demographics video. Fucking hilarious, that.

[AgentAxeman 199]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though.

 

Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously?

 

You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand.

 

Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were?

 

Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches.

 

 

whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!!

 

wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin?

 

the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement.

please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'?

 

 

Because Nick Griffin made a tit of himself on Question Time harking back to the exact point in time when Britain became white and dismissing any history prior to that.

 

I only cast the christians as invaders to redress the balance after you cast them as unfortunate victims of the spread of Islam across the middle East.

 

As you say, all of that gets away from the point of the original post. Which when you said "at least there's one functioning democracy left", i assumed meant you want a vote on banning a specific religion.

 

If you have no problem with it, why do you want a referendum?

 

 

I didnt cast Christians or Muslims as anything. i didnt write the original article, its copied and pasted off the BBC website. whats wrong with my statement of theres one functioning democracy left?

 

the fact that the swiss government has listened to the popular vote kinda proves the point of the statement. the popular vote wins. thats what democracy is.

 

and i have no desire to have a referendum on the building of minarets in this country. i dont believe i've asked for a referendum anywhere in this topic? where did that statement come from?

 

as i said earlier, religion was not the original topic here. it was the fact that democracy was seen in action at a time when we see very little of it!

[Renton 22449]

It's basically a boring, expensive country full of cunts. Add to nuke list.

 

 

Nice mountains though.

[AgentAxeman 199]

It's basically a boring, expensive country full of cunts. Add to nuke list.

 

so how many countries are on the nuke list now Parky?

[Happy Face 29]

well christianity is only 2000ish year old right?

 

pretty sure islam pre-dates it, quite a few were probably jewish though

 

 

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity.

 

i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

 

Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though.

 

Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously?

 

You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand.

 

Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were?

 

Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches.

 

 

whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!!

 

wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin?

 

the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement.

please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'?

 

 

Because Nick Griffin made a tit of himself on Question Time harking back to the exact point in time when Britain became white and dismissing any history prior to that.

 

I only cast the christians as invaders to redress the balance after you cast them as unfortunate victims of the spread of Islam across the middle East.

 

As you say, all of that gets away from the point of the original post. Which when you said "at least there's one functioning democracy left", i assumed meant you want a vote on banning a specific religion.

 

If you have no problem with it, why do you want a referendum?

 

 

I didnt cast Christians or Muslims as anything. i didnt write the original article, its copied and pasted off the BBC website.

 

I wasn't referring to the article. I listed the Christian proportions of predominantly muslim countries and you said "how many of those countries were Christian before the Islam faith came into being?"

 

whats wrong with my statement of theres one functioning democracy left?

 

the fact that the swiss government has listened to the popular vote kinda proves the point of the statement. the popular vote wins. thats what democracy is.

 

and i have no desire to have a referendum on the building of minarets in this country. i dont believe i've asked for a referendum anywhere in this topic? where did that statement come from?

 

as i said earlier, religion was not the original topic here. it was the fact that democracy was seen in action at a time when we see very little of it!

 

Democracy is electing a party who broadly represent your views to enact specific legislature as they see fit.

 

It's not electing a party who won't make a decision but will have an expensive referendum on matters as apolitical as this.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Happy Face

[Renton 22449]

Switzerland is a place where they don't like to fight, so they get people to do their fighting for them while they ski and eat chocolate.

- Larry David.

[adios 717]

I've no idea what banning minarets is going to achieve, especially as throughout Switzerland there are only 4. The mosques are still there and so are the Muslims. What's the point?

 

I'm not exactly an expert on Islam as I thought minarets were something to do with ballet prior to reading this thread, but judging from the wiki quote below, one allows them a place of worship, the other allows them to stamp their cultural mark on the surrounding area and probably makes it easier for communities to build in isolation to the surrounding culture.

 

As well as providing a visual cue to a Muslim community, the main function of the minaret is to provide a vantage point from which the call to prayer (adhan) is made. Call to prayer in Islam happens five times each day. These times are at sunrise, noon, day, sundown, and evening. In most modern mosques, the adhan is called not from the minaret but from the musallah, or prayer hall, via a microphone and speaker system.

 

btw Axman, the old testament (the book of the Jewish faith) was around before 2k years ago, but as to how long Christianity has been around, the clue's in the name.

 

Surprised to see Parky so down on the Swiss, the last bastion of freedom in the West surrounded on all sides by the truly terrifying march of the New World Order. It's almost like the bloke makes no sense.

Edited November 30, 2009 by to dumb

[adios 717]

Democracy is electing a party who broadly represent your views to enact specific legislature as they see fit.

 

It's not electing a party who won't make a decision but will have an expensive referendum on matters as apolitical as this.

 

When did you decide this? Chomsky doesn't agree with you, I know he's popular with your lot.

 

As an aside, many Swiss cantons have concealed carry laws and quite easy access to AK47s and the like. One for you lib'ruls to think about.

 

Yay politics threads!

[NJS 4446]

I've said before that I've enjoyed visiting churches from an art/architecture pov but to be honest I'd be happy if there was never another one built. The same goes for mosques - why do the religious whose books tell them that it's prayer that counts feel the need to flaunt their wealth?

 

Having said all that I still think its a pathetic decision by the Swiss - although I have to say having visited one Muslim country and having only been slightly bothered by the prayer call over the course of a week, I certainly wouldn't want to live near one permanently.

[Happy Face 29]

Democracy is electing a party who broadly represent your views to enact specific legislature as they see fit.

 

It's not electing a party who won't make a decision but will have an expensive referendum on matters as apolitical as this.

 

When did you decide this? Chomsky doesn't agree with you, I know he's popular with your lot.

 

As an aside, many Swiss cantons have concealed carry laws and quite easy access to AK47s and the like. One for you lib'ruls to think about.

 

Yay politics threads!

 

I didn't decide it. It can and does come in many forms.

 

I think the UK is democratic though, which Axeman doesn't. I prefer to elect intelligent people to make hard decisions. If we didn't then capital punishment would still be on the go.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Happy Face