Guest Stevie Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Perhaps the best appraisal of where we find ourselves came in the post-match pub debate (a lengthy affair, given the £1.60 a pint bar prices and the lack of licensing hours)..... "never mind us being good enough to go up, we're not bad enough to stay down". As we've said before, the danger is that people look at only results and tables. Winning's great, winning ugly is more than adequate for our purposes, but believing that we're a better side than the one that went down is downright dangerous. Putting aside that constant "great spirit in the camp" refrain and the subtext that we're better off without those talented shirkers who departed following relegation, we lack quality, creativity and cover - three factors that contributed to our demise and are yet to be addressed. I agree with all of this, but aside from the managerial merry go round, the biggest reason in my humble opinion, is we had literally fuck all pace in the side, and it wasn't like Martins utilised his. You can't do anything in the Premiership without pace, if we don't sign two fast creative midfield players, and a pacey striker when we go up, we're fucked, I hope Hughton sees this as a key thing, because pace has ruined us, you can trace it back to Bellamy leaving, then Dyer, we need pace in that side it's as simple as that, or we're going straight back down. Even Wolves have pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Lastly compounded by replacing N'Zogbia with Ryan Taylor. Not saying CNZ developed into the player his promise showed but he was just about the only player we had in midfield with a bit of pace, ability and (occasionally) end product. He'd probably have made the single point difference we needed in the end. Still, if we'd stayed up we'd have been completely fucked this season at a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Perhaps the best appraisal of where we find ourselves came in the post-match pub debate (a lengthy affair, given the £1.60 a pint bar prices and the lack of licensing hours)..... "never mind us being good enough to go up, we're not bad enough to stay down". As we've said before, the danger is that people look at only results and tables. Winning's great, winning ugly is more than adequate for our purposes, but believing that we're a better side than the one that went down is downright dangerous. Putting aside that constant "great spirit in the camp" refrain and the subtext that we're better off without those talented shirkers who departed following relegation, we lack quality, creativity and cover - three factors that contributed to our demise and are yet to be addressed. I agree with all of this, but aside from the managerial merry go round, the biggest reason in my humble opinion, is we had literally fuck all pace in the side, and it wasn't like Martins utilised his. You can't do anything in the Premiership without pace, if we don't sign two fast creative midfield players, and a pacey striker when we go up, we're fucked, I hope Hughton sees this as a key thing, because pace has ruined us, you can trace it back to Bellamy leaving, then Dyer, we need pace in that side it's as simple as that, or we're going straight back down. Even Wolves have pace. Yup i agree but.... Ashley wants more money for the club everyones knows that, hes trying to get us promoted on the cheap. Unfortunately he hasn't a clue about running a club/business/ or about football in general if we win this league comfortably he'll think we'll be good enough to scrape staying up in the premiership without further investment. We go up, we'll be for sale again, transfer embargo employed , valuation will be over the odds, no one will pay it and history repeats itself. Actually, I think if he keeps streamlining the club he won't even be that arsed about going down as he'll think that we'll be ok the season after, with the Championship being so poor and the parachute payments etc. Assuming he thinks that far in advance which is probably overrating his 'planning' skills. I think he'd be wrong like as we'd probably be a shadow of the side we are now (which doesn't really bear thinking about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4436 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 The core reason we were relegated imo was an uncreative midfield and the problem still exists. The only difference is Nolan has scored goals this year. I also see the fact that good strikers with no service have been replaced by average/poor strikers with no service - something else that would need to be addressed even if we signed a new midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 The core reason we were relegated imo was an uncreative midfield and the problem still exists. The only difference is Nolan has scored goals this year. I also see the fact that good strikers with no service have been replaced by average/poor strikers with no service - something else that would need to be addressed even if we signed a new midfield. Not forgetting the lack of cover in defence. That's a defence which wouldn't be great in the PL as it stands as well. Especially given the starting RB is only on loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stevie Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 The core reason we were relegated imo was an uncreative midfield and the problem still exists. The only difference is Nolan has scored goals this year. I also see the fact that good strikers with no service have been replaced by average/poor strikers with no service - something else that would need to be addressed even if we signed a new midfield. You can't have a midfield with four Riquelme's, regardless how creative it is, you need pace and movement, we had none, we were static and that is the real core reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4436 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 The core reason we were relegated imo was an uncreative midfield and the problem still exists. The only difference is Nolan has scored goals this year. I also see the fact that good strikers with no service have been replaced by average/poor strikers with no service - something else that would need to be addressed even if we signed a new midfield. You can't have a midfield with four Riquelme's, regardless how creative it is, you need pace and movement, we had none, we were static and that is the real core reason. Yeah - I usually think of pace/movement being synonomous with "creative" - that term doesn't have to mean just a playmaker - we need a mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Lack of legs as well. When was the last time we had two midfielders in the middle who were genuinely box-to-box? Ignoring this season because the pace of the game is slower anyway. Last season we played well for 20-30 minutes here and there but we were never able to take the game by the scruff of the neck for anything like 90 mins because we never controlled the middle of the park. This is fucking depressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMoog 0 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Perhaps the best appraisal of where we find ourselves came in the post-match pub debate (a lengthy affair, given the £1.60 a pint bar prices and the lack of licensing hours)..... "never mind us being good enough to go up, we're not bad enough to stay down". As we've said before, the danger is that people look at only results and tables. Winning's great, winning ugly is more than adequate for our purposes, but believing that we're a better side than the one that went down is downright dangerous. Putting aside that constant "great spirit in the camp" refrain and the subtext that we're better off without those talented shirkers who departed following relegation, we lack quality, creativity and cover - three factors that contributed to our demise and are yet to be addressed. I agree with all of this, but aside from the managerial merry go round, the biggest reason in my humble opinion, is we had literally fuck all pace in the side, and it wasn't like Martins utilised his. You can't do anything in the Premiership without pace, if we don't sign two fast creative midfield players, and a pacey striker when we go up, we're fucked, I hope Hughton sees this as a key thing, because pace has ruined us, you can trace it back to Bellamy leaving, then Dyer, we need pace in that side it's as simple as that, or we're going straight back down. Even Wolves have pace. Yup i agree but.... Ashley wants more money for the club everyones knows that, hes trying to get us promoted on the cheap. Unfortunately he hasn't a clue about running a club/business/ or about football in general if we win this league comfortably he'll think we'll be good enough to scrape staying up in the premiership without further investment. We go up, we'll be for sale again, transfer embargo employed , valuation will be over the odds, no one will pay it and history repeats itself. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Yeah - I usually think of pace/movement being synonomous with "creative" - that term doesn't have to mean just a playmaker - we need a mix. I'd have settled for one or the other even last season , We just had shite throughout the whole midfield Remember when we were linked with Aimar and Modric? ah happy times lol As an aside, Ashley wouldn't cough-up the cash for Modric before (iirc) his much publicised financial problems. That's why KK said that bit about us not being able to compete and was summoned down to London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7717 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giraffidae 0 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 all valid and realistic long term views that are a real concern, but I’m more concerned about getting out of the fizzy pop league for now. What’s going to happen in the upcoming transfer window? The players we’ve got at the moment are only really still here because there were no offers put in for them. If say Nolan, S Taylor, Smith, Enrique, Jonas or Collo had offers put in for them then I reckon Fat Cunt would pocket it and drop us right in it. The amount of of money some of those players are on is what you’d expect for Champions League players. and I presume David Moyes was at the Preston match looking at NUFC players.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Perhaps the best appraisal of where we find ourselves came in the post-match pub debate (a lengthy affair, given the £1.60 a pint bar prices and the lack of licensing hours)..... "never mind us being good enough to go up, we're not bad enough to stay down". As we've said before, the danger is that people look at only results and tables. Winning's great, winning ugly is more than adequate for our purposes, but believing that we're a better side than the one that went down is downright dangerous. Putting aside that constant "great spirit in the camp" refrain and the subtext that we're better off without those talented shirkers who departed following relegation, we lack quality, creativity and cover - three factors that contributed to our demise and are yet to be addressed. I agree with all of this, but aside from the managerial merry go round, the biggest reason in my humble opinion, is we had literally fuck all pace in the side, and it wasn't like Martins utilised his. You can't do anything in the Premiership without pace, if we don't sign two fast creative midfield players, and a pacey striker when we go up, we're fucked, I hope Hughton sees this as a key thing, because pace has ruined us, you can trace it back to Bellamy leaving, then Dyer, we need pace in that side it's as simple as that, or we're going straight back down. Even Wolves have pace. Yup i agree but.... Ashley wants more money for the club everyones knows that, hes trying to get us promoted on the cheap. Unfortunately he hasn't a clue about running a club/business/ or about football in general if we win this league comfortably he'll think we'll be good enough to scrape staying up in the premiership without further investment. We go up, we'll be for sale again, transfer embargo employed , valuation will be over the odds, no one will pay it and history repeats itself. Thats my worry! We can only hope that there is a few consortia in the background now monitoring our performance and waiting for FMA to put us up again...maybe in January but id imagine at the end of the season. When we go up, and if FMA doesnt sell or put at least 25mil into the transfer kitty, the latter being extremely unlikely, then we will almost certainly come straight back down after a season of being raped home and away but the undergrowth sides in the PL. All the knowledgable toon fans see it how it is, we have an ok squad, a decent basis to build on, but we need to do exactly that...BUILD Cover for both fullback positions, another centre-half, possibly 1 OR 2 wingers, and 15 goal a season striker with pace and most importantly a creative midfielder. Easily 25mil+ needed, and the only hope is a new consortia with good backing and a bit of football nouse and common sense coming in at the close season. We hope, we pray but in the mean time all we can do is keep on keepin on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it They are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it They are Minus Bassong, Beye, Viduka, Owen, Martins and Duff If we hadnt sold N'Zogbia, Given and Milner we wouldnt even be having this debate......lookin at who we lost it really does make you wonder how the fuck we were doing so shit before they left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it They are Minus Bassong, Beye (doesn't get a game), Viduka(doesn't have a club), Owen(doesn't get a game), Martins (doesn't get a game) and Duff If we hadnt sold N'Zogbia, Given and Milner we wouldnt even be having this debate......lookin at who we lost it really does make you wonder how the fuck we were doing so shit before they left! Goes to show the 'quality' we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nice to see Owen has picked up where he left off with his impression of the Invisible Man btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6859 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) Nice to see Owen has picked up where he left off with his impression of the Invisible Man btw. He'll never be more than a bit part player at Man U. Fergie will never start him in the big games. His England dreams are deteriorating by the game as well. Shame. Edited November 27, 2009 by Holden McGroin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donaldstott 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 All the knowledgable toon fans see it how it is, we have an ok squad, a decent basis to build on, but we need to do exactly that...BUILD I would call our squad poor. It would need significant improvement just to stay in the league. If we hoped to be anything other than in a relegation scrap I honestly think that Taylor, Harper and Carroll are the only three players that should start in the Premier, and that assumes Carroll plays alongside a pacy goalscorer. As much as I've been impressed by Enrique and Colo they were routinely found out in the PL. The same can be said of Smith and Nolan, the rest aren't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) I don't even rate them 3 that highly although Carroll 'has a chance', as they say. That said, I think Enrique is good enough for the PL. Edited November 27, 2009 by alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it They are Minus Bassong, Beye (doesn't get a game), Viduka(doesn't have a club), Owen(doesn't get a game), Martins (doesn't get a game) and Duff If we hadnt sold N'Zogbia, Given and Milner we wouldnt even be having this debate......lookin at who we lost it really does make you wonder how the fuck we were doing so shit before they left! Goes to show the 'quality' we had. So regardless of what they are doing for their clubs now are you saying that they arent quality? Your argument of not playing or no club well... Viduka is unfit and has been for years...still got it though Owen....Rooney and Berbatov....hmm wonder why Beye...Should be in the side, villa are doing shit Martins il not argue with All the knowledgable toon fans see it how it is, we have an ok squad, a decent basis to build on, but we need to do exactly that...BUILD I would call our squad poor. It would need significant improvement just to stay in the league. If we hoped to be anything other than in a relegation scrap I honestly think that Taylor, Harper and Carroll are the only three players that should start in the Premier, and that assumes Carroll plays alongside a pacy goalscorer. As much as I've been impressed by Enrique and Colo they were routinely found out in the PL. The same can be said of Smith and Nolan, the rest aren't good enough. Isnt that what i said? Harper, Taylor, Simpson, Enrique, Nolan and Carroll for sure...like i said before though Coloccini and Gutierrez could benefit from this season and become stronger next year...Same can be said for Smith too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nolan's shite in the PL though. He hasn't even functioned well in his preferred role at the point of midfield 3 in the top flight for a few years now. That position is a luxury whereby you have to be a canny bit better than he is to justify it. Simpson's unproven in the top flight and he's only on loan anyway. Smith hasn't had a good game in the PL since he arrived. Harper shit his pants when he got the number 1 spot. Carroll's another one who is a bit of an unknown quantity in the PL and he certainly need someone mobile alongside him even if he were to develop into a decent player in that division. Guitierrez hasn't even shone in this division particularly. Colo is an alright sweeper but falls into a similar category to Nolan in that you have to be something special to justify that role. I like Enrique, as I've said. Taylor did quite well in the 2nd half of last season but that was at RB where he often had no one to mark and he still has a lot to prove in the middle of the park for me. And they're our better players. That squad doesn't need building upon, you'd virtually have to start from scratch in terms of a first XI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 We're a worse side than the one that was relegated, however I maintain that the same squad that was relegated in another season would have earnt enough points to finish comfortably mid-table. The relegation was down to several factors not the least of which was the management turmoil. In addition there was typically horrible injury problems (AKA injury prone players) and massive supporter unrest. I can confidently say* If the team we were relegated with was playing this season in the Championship they would be no chance to be relegated again if there was stable management. * - partly because there's no way to disprove it They are Minus Bassong, Beye (doesn't get a game), Viduka(doesn't have a club), Owen(doesn't get a game), Martins (doesn't get a game) and Duff If we hadnt sold N'Zogbia, Given and Milner we wouldnt even be having this debate......lookin at who we lost it really does make you wonder how the fuck we were doing so shit before they left! Goes to show the 'quality' we had. So regardless of what they are doing for their clubs now are you saying that they arent quality? I'd take Beye back in a shot. Wouldn't touch the other 3 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Viduka Still has it? did I actually read that.Viduka only had /it/ when it was coming upto the end of his contract and he bothered to try for a few games trying to get an extension. Milner i still think we were right to sell, he's never worth what we got for him... the fact we didn't replace him totally fucked us over, would have rather kept him knowing that was going to happen. Enrique is a great player though, i remember having to fight his case on here a bit last season, he's just one of those players that need to be consistently playing (like this season), and at the time he wasn't :/ Given leaving i don't want to talk about He's not a great player Ant and I like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4436 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Carroll has potential but going into the premier with him and Shola even with additions is frigthening. Enrique steadily improved last year and in the end looked okay and I'd be happy to persevere with him for a while. I'd also replace Harper - distinctly average imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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